927 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Phaedon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
That doesn't mean "It's impossible".

That means: "It's extremely unlikely, practically impossible, the possibility is miniscule, negligible, not worthy being talked of."

And it's extremely unlikely because of all the variables? 

Mainly, but not limited to.

[Phaedon]

OK, then. What would all these variables be?

[Zulu_DFA]

Phaedon wrote...

OK, then. What would all these variables be?

*SPOILERS*

*SPOILERS*

*SPOILERS*

*SPOILERS*

*SPOILERS*

*SPOILERS*

*SPOILERS*

*SPOILERS*

*SPOILERS*

*SPOILERS*

*SPOILERS*

*SPOILERS*

*SPOILERS*

[Phaedon]

I see.

[Wittand25]

Phaedon wrote...

And taking all the problems that having the whole squad return as part of the squad in ME3 into account, I would say that the probability for that to happen is bellow 0.1 .

To which problems are you refering to exactly? And no, unless you mean 0.1/1, then your estimate is too extreme. In fact, I personally consider the squaddies returning likely, but uncertain at this point.

Wildly different squad-sizes making cut-scenes with the whole squad impossible; diskspace; developing 12+ power sets without making them redundant but also making sure that no subset misses important powers; creating dialog for the squad that neither bores old or confuses new players ...

And I am using the mathematical definition of probability so it has to be a number between zero (impossible) and 1 (unavoidable).  0.1 represents ten percent.

[Zulu_DFA]

Also:

Calibrations

Meditations

Engine cleaning

Work to do

Your talking too much

Meditations (again)

Building consensus

Not wanting to play

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 03 janvier 2011 - 10:24 .

[ScotOfClanDonald]

darth_lopez wrote...

furhtermore i remember hearing rumors that garrus may have been established as shepards cannonical best friend, if these are true then there is a good liklihood that he will be returning in ME 3 if BW rules it as such.

There's very little about Shepard that's canonical, except that he or she is the biggest badass on the face of the galaxy.  Maybe the universe.

ah yes the "it's somewhat optional so it's wasted resources" argument again. This comes with every RPG it's a given of the field there will be wasted resources based off of player decissions if BW can get away with 6 potential wastes out of this i think that's good given the horrid amount of them in ME 2. too elaborate: all minable plannets, not all we're necessary for research, 8 party members, 12 missions[loyalty], every sidequest, upgrades for the normandy. These are all wasted resources if the player chooses not to use them. they add up to much more than 3 or so dead characters(rough statistical average).

It's a different story if the "waste" happens before the game even starts, though.  If I'm halfway through ME2 and realize I haven't recruited Tali yet, I can go pick her up.  If I imported a save where she somehow died in ME1 (I know it's impossible, just for the sake of argument), then I wouldn't be able to see her no matter how early a save I reverted to unless I went back to ME1 and exported a Shepard that still has her alive.  It makes business sense to incentivize playing the previous game.  It doesn't make business sense to penalize not playing it.

however your argument is totally reliant on the idea that "because they can be wasted resources they are" which simply isn't true. Obviously not all players are goign to have the same dead characters and not all players are going to research, or pick up the same things in ME 2. if it enhances immersion and the player's enjoyment then it isn't waste of resources.

Okay.  Here's my stance, and I think Bioware's stance.

Reward a complete and thorough playthrough from the previous game = okay
Penalize a shoddy or incomplete playthrough from the previous game = not okay

Each game has to stand alone.  Preventing players from having playable companions will only engender ill-will with the greater fanbase.

Also if you're worried about not being able to use all your former teammates that you want, there are walkthroughs.

 
No professional console game company is going to intentionally make a game that requires external walkthroughs, and I'd say a large percentage of players has no interest in going back and re-playing a previous game just to get  the basic level of playability that you take for granted in any similar game in the sequel.

frankly i think the majority of us found this Useless. AI hackign is very situational and often the situations it was really useful in both games were very scarce i'd say Axe it entirely.

It's just an example.  My point is that your suggestion could cut someone off from many mission vital powers, which would result in Bioware having to dumb the missions down even further.

Now either you're saying it was a bad move for Bioware to have an import save file from ME 1 to ME 2 feature in ME 2 or you're honestly trying to troll me.

Oh, for cripe's sake.  I'm not trying to troll you, and I wasn't saying that imports are bad.  I'm saying that Bioware has to be a little careful on the magnitude of import effects so that nobody ends up screwed over, no matter how badly they played through previous games.  Whether or not the bad playthrough is intentional is meaningless.  They say the Lord never closes a door except when he opens a window, and Bioware essentially has to do just that.

Eitherway unless you plan on revamping the general story layout of a trilogy(you know how the third is thypicaly the conlcusion) i dont' see how the plot could possibly demand new characters when ME 2 already served the purpose of team building and ME 1 a similar role. if we need to get a new squad and do their new missions again it would be totally redundant and not ME 3 which has been stated by BW to be the close of the shepard arc. Thus there needs to be a conclusions of the reaper threat or shepards role in it. Either shepard and his already assembled team dies. or the reapers are beaten back those are the only option plot wise and neither are really open to recruiting a vast amount of new members.

I'm not sure you're understanding the plot of the previous games.  ME1 was about stopping Saren.  The squad you assembled was there to do that.  ME2 was about taking out the Collector base.  The squad you assembled was there to do that.  While some of them might stay on with Shepard for the big finale, a lot of them have more important things to be doing if they survive.

If you think that the entire crew would just hang out on the Normandy between ME2 & ME3, or that Shepard isn't going to accept further help as he goes along in the last game (or, for that matter, worry about individual loyalty missions when the galaxy is burning), then I'm not sure what to say.  Shepard's interest in loyalty will be in fleets and planets, and the ME2 survivors are going to be mainly important insofar as they may make recruiting their species or special interest groups easier.

I'm fairly doubftul that msot people who buy ME 3 are planning on playing it only 1 time, if that were the case they should just rent it at blockbuster.

There's basically no way for me to argue about that without looking at the stats.

Considering they made a Default shepard, for ME 2, i'm willing to bet they'd make a default shepard for ME 3, it's sorta obvious if they wanna make money, I'm willing to bet off of the gameplay statistics, if i remember the quote from earlier(80% of all squad mates survive) the squaddies they use are part of that 80% of survivors.  so the majority of default shepards party would most likely survive. this i would say is a reasonable expectation given the statistics and replay factor the game offers to it's audience.

No matter who they have surviving Default Shepard's run, there's going to be considerable anger among the players if their favorite character ends up being the one that died.  Better to skirt the issue entirely and not have Default Shepard relying on who survived previous games to determine who gets to be in the squad.

Listen, at this point we're just talking in circles.  You seem to think that it's possible for Bioware to implement the "17 squaddie solution".  I'm going to give you 99.9% odds against it.  Let's leave it at that.

[darth_lopez]

Wittand25 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

And taking all the problems that having the whole squad return as part of the squad in ME3 into account, I would say that the probability for that to happen is bellow 0.1 .

To which problems are you refering to exactly? And no, unless you mean 0.1/1, then your estimate is too extreme. In fact, I personally consider the squaddies returning likely, but uncertain at this point.

Wildly different squad-sizes making cut-scenes with the whole squad impossible; diskspace; developing 12+ power sets without making them redundant but also making sure that no subset misses important powers; creating dialog for the squad that neither bores old or confuses new players ...

And I am using the mathematical definition of probability so it has to be a number between zero (impossible) and 1 (unavoidable).  0.1 represents ten percent.

they already made half of the squad redundent in ME 2. and ME 1. XD it would be kinda funny to see a non-redundant squad with shared powers XD


@zulu

Stop trying to argue semantics poorly. the intent of this thread was to discuss the misconception of there being too many variables. while it's developed to including the likelihood of squadmates coming back and why it's primary purpose still stands on discussing that misconception. Perhaps you'd like to be benefiical to the conversation again or  you can continue sputtering about the semantics.

[Wittand25]

darth_lopez wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

And taking all the problems that having the whole squad return as part of the squad in ME3 into account, I would say that the probability for that to happen is bellow 0.1 .

To which problems are you refering to exactly? And no, unless you mean 0.1/1, then your estimate is too extreme. In fact, I personally consider the squaddies returning likely, but uncertain at this point.

Wildly different squad-sizes making cut-scenes with the whole squad impossible; diskspace; developing 12+ power sets without making them redundant but also making sure that no subset misses important powers; creating dialog for the squad that neither bores old or confuses new players ...

And I am using the mathematical definition of probability so it has to be a number between zero (impossible) and 1 (unavoidable).  0.1 represents ten percent.

they already made half of the squad redundent in ME 2. and ME 1. XD it would be kinda funny to see a non-redundant squad with shared powers XD

That was required for the suicide mission in ME2. In order to provide more choice than right or wrong you needed at least two competent and one incompetent squad-member for each job. In ME1 you got exactly one companion from every possible class, so there is no redundancy there.

[Zulu_DFA]

Wittand25 wrote...
That was required for the suicide mission in ME2. In order to provide more choice than right or wrong you needed at least two competent and one incompetent squad-member for each job. In ME1 you got exactly one companion from every possible class, so there is no redundancy there.

This. And in ME1 there is actually a situation when all squadmates can be busy with something -- during the mission on Virmire. The game even has to make and exception and save Wrex by default lest you should run short of squadmates.

[ScotOfClanDonald]

darth_lopez wrote...

 the intent of this thread was to discuss the misconception of there being too many variables. while it's developed to including the likelihood of squadmates coming back and why it's primary purpose still stands on discussing that misconception. Perhaps you'd like to be benefiical to the conversation again or  you can continue sputtering about the semantics.

I honestly haven't seen any evidence that it IS a misconception.  The thesis seems to be based on an assumption that having the "dead" variable is not a significant hinderance in Bioware's mind, and that it's basically the same amount of work to make a new team as bring back all 17 previous squaddies.  From experience playing pretty much every prior Bioware game, I'm saying that it's probably a fairly major hinderance in Bioware's mind.  This isn't like Baldur's Gate 2, where they have ressurection magic and people who were dead in the first game could magically reappear to life; nobody in the Mass Effect universe is going to concoct a Project Lazarus just for Garrus or Zaeed.

[Zulu_DFA]

darth_lopez wrote...
@zulu

Stop trying to argue semantics poorly. the intent of this thread was to discuss the misconception of there being too many variables.

No, the OP said that there are indeed many variables but that should not be considered a problem. They all should be accounted for by no more then one line in the entire game, while everything else should be tailored to cater the characters' fanbases.

This is exactly what I found unacceptable and game-ruining. This approach was taken with Garrus and Tali in ME2, and it ruined both characters for me, although before ME2 I honestly considered both of them quite interesting and entertaining.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 03 janvier 2011 - 11:15 .

[Siansonea]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Just wondering, do you think that new squaddies will be introduced anyway?

I could see ~2 new squad mates just for the people playing with only 2 suvivors so they have some diversity, although I kinda wish my 2 survivor saves would stay that way. I kinda want to see my Sole Survivor Paragon save the galaxy with just Garrus and Tali.

Me too, except it's a Ruthless Soldier with Morinth and Kasumi.

[Siansonea]

Here are my thoughts regarding the probability of the various squad member characters returning:



Very high:



Liara [LI, definitely alive]

Kaidan/Ashley [LI, definitely alive]

Miranda [LI, hard to kill]

Garrus [LI, hard to kill]

Tali [LI, legions of fans]



High:



Jacob [LI]

Jack [LI]

Thane [LI]

Grunt [appeals to young males]

Legion [appeals to young males]



Moderate to low:



Wrex [appeals to young males, but killable in first game]

Kasumi [DLC, non-LI, hired by Cerberus]

Zaeed [DLC, non-LI, killable on loyalty mission, hired by Cerberus]

Mordin [Non-LI, reaching end of lifespan]

Samara [Non-LI, has ongoing mission unrelated to Shepard's]



Low:



Morinth [unstable personality, most likely deceased]



I think it's likely that if there are new squad members, they may be characters we've already met in the first two games. I think the most likely candidates are:



Captain David Anderson

Aria T'Loak

Captain Armando Bailey

EDI in a geth-like mobile platform "body"

Joker with a powered exoskeleton

[Zulu_DFA]

Siansonea II wrote...

Here are my thoughts regarding the probability of the various squad member characters returning:

Very high:

Liara [LI, definitely alive]
Kaidan/Ashley [LI, definitely alive]
Miranda [LI, hard to kill]
Garrus [LI, hard to kill]
Tali [LI, legions of fans]

High:

Jacob [LI]
Jack [LI]
Thane [LI]
Grunt [appeals to young males]
Legion [appeals to young males]

Moderate to low:

Wrex [appeals to young males, but killable in first game]
Kasumi [DLC, non-LI, hired by Cerberus]
Zaeed [DLC, non-LI, killable on loyalty mission, hired by Cerberus]
Mordin [Non-LI, reaching end of lifespan]
Samara [Non-LI, has ongoing mission unrelated to Shepard's]

Low:

Morinth [unstable personality, most likely deceased]

I think it's likely that if there are new squad members, they may be characters we've already met in the first two games. I think the most likely candidates are:

Captain David Anderson
Aria T'Loak
Captain Armando Bailey
EDI in a geth-like mobile platform "body"
Joker with a powered exoskeleton

Where are Shiala, Kal'Reegar, Admiral Hackett, Matriarch Aethita, Blasto, Kai Leng, Captain Kirrahe, Niftu Cal and Keeper 20?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 03 janvier 2011 - 11:51 .

[darth_lopez]

[quote]ScotOfClanDonald wrote...

[quote]darth_lopez wrote...

furhtermore i remember hearing rumors that garrus may have been established as shepards cannonical best friend, if these are true then there is a good liklihood that he will be returning in ME 3 if BW rules it as such.[/quote]

There's very little about Shepard that's canonical, except that he or she is the biggest badass on the face of the galaxy.  Maybe the universe.
[/quote]

yeah that is pretty much the established cannon, that and he is a dude...or i could be thinking of the warden. either way there is very little established by way of cannnon. I was just puting that out there as i did hear it from some typically reliable source. Though there is the incredibly interesting argument, used to justify Big Ben being included. He's on the cover for alot of publicity for the series and is about as well known and liked as wrex. if mass popularity of Garus isn't an argument for the liklihood of his return, view it as a marketing ploy, idk what else could be because he doesn't have substantial storyline reasons to be there.. just like ME 1 him and wrex had no real substantially story driven reason to follow shepard. both would've made do as temporary squad mates.


[quote]
[quote]

ah yes the "it's somewhat optional so it's wasted resources" argument again. This comes with every RPG it's a given of the field there will be wasted resources based off of player decissions if BW can get away with 6 potential wastes out of this i think that's good given the horrid amount of them in ME 2. too elaborate: all minable plannets, not all we're necessary for research, 8 party members, 12 missions[loyalty], every sidequest, upgrades for the normandy. These are all wasted resources if the player chooses not to use them. they add up to much more than 3 or so dead characters(rough statistical average).[/quote]

It's a different story if the "waste" happens before the game even starts, though.  If I'm halfway through ME2 and realize I haven't recruited Tali yet, I can go pick her up.  If I imported a save where she somehow died in ME1 (I know it's impossible, just for the sake of argument), then I wouldn't be able to see her no matter how early a save I reverted to unless I went back to ME1 and exported a Shepard that still has her alive.  It makes business sense to incentivize playing the previous game.  It doesn't make business sense to penalize not playing it.

[quote]however your argument is totally reliant on the idea that "because they can be wasted resources they are" which simply isn't true. Obviously not all players are goign to have the same dead characters and not all players are going to research, or pick up the same things in ME 2. if it enhances immersion and the player's enjoyment then it isn't waste of resources.[/quote]

Okay.  Here's my stance, and I think Bioware's stance.

Reward a complete and thorough playthrough from the previous game = okay
Penalize a shoddy or incomplete playthrough from the previous game = not okay

Each game has to stand alone.  Preventing players from having playable companions will only engender ill-will with the greater fanbase.

[quote]Also if you're worried about not being able to use all your former teammates that you want, there are walkthroughs.[/quote]
 
No professional console game company is going to intentionally make a game that requires external walkthroughs, and I'd say a large percentage of players has no interest in going back and re-playing a previous game just to get  the basic level of playability that you take for granted in any similar game in the sequel.
[/quote]

it's a reward to have things relevant to the plot imported. an example of a penalty would be you're denied the built in results for LotSB because you didn't buy it. thus resulting in a lack of substantial content and lack of story development. a good example of lack of substantial content and waste of resources. pretty sure there was an official comment about it bridging the gap. Meaning it has to come into play moderately, or it's results do in ME 3. That or it's more of something you'd prefer to not see imported.

and i'm pretty sure the greater fanbase is of a like mind and want to see at least some of the work they did in ME 2 yield fruit in ME 3.

in regards to your last statement in rebuttal to mine on walkthrough availability. The game tries to aid you in the selection. With DLC characters it gets even easier. 3(won't state requirements) it's not hard to figure out which 3 you send out to do the required tasks. if all are loyal, also not hard to do, there will be zero casualties...GI claims that mordin has a habbit of randomly dying though, just a warning i've never noticed it. anyway what i'm getting at is BW provided you with all the info you needed to select appropriate people for the job. if it's that big a deal here's a few ideas
Save Editor
save before suicide mission to repeat and retry until you have all outcomes you desire
replay all the way through
use walkthrough
read the advice and descritpion of characters go with those who are suggested or you know well.

it really is quite easy to have all  members survive if that's your biggest beef.

[quote]

It's just an example.  My point is that your suggestion could cut someone off from many mission vital powers, which would result in Bioware having to dumb the missions down even further.
[/quote]

i saw your point just stating that it is very situational. There are better powers to apply it too Overload and Warp already mentioned. But those still have plenty of application in ME 2 ME 1 saw a massive need for overload and sabotage warp was less useful...in the same way AI hacking was in both almost. but that could be just my opinion considering i use Tech Characters mostly i'm more fond of tech powers and know how to use them quite well.


[quote]
Oh, for cripe's sake.  I'm not trying to troll you, and I wasn't saying that imports are bad.  I'm saying that Bioware has to be a little careful on the magnitude of import effects so that nobody ends up screwed over, no matter how badly they played through previous games.  Whether or not the bad playthrough is intentional is meaningless.  They say the Lord never closes a door except when he opens a window, and Bioware essentially has to do just that.
[/quote]
Misunderstanding. However they are practically the pioneers of the system. I'd rather see it's limits stressed than underused. and while this is just my opinion i'm sure they're more than capable of utilizing it to deliver any number of squaddies they want, (preferably 1/3-1/2), from ME 2.

[quote]
[quote]Eitherway unless you plan on revamping the general story layout of a trilogy(you know how the third is thypicaly the conlcusion) i dont' see how the plot could possibly demand new characters when ME 2 already served the purpose of team building and ME 1 a similar role. if we need to get a new squad and do their new missions again it would be totally redundant and not ME 3 which has been stated by BW to be the close of the shepard arc. Thus there needs to be a conclusions of the reaper threat or shepards role in it. Either shepard and his already assembled team dies. or the reapers are beaten back those are the only option plot wise and neither are really open to recruiting a vast amount of new members.[/quote]

I'm not sure you're understanding the plot of the previous games.  ME1 was about stopping Saren.  The squad you assembled was there to do that.  ME2 was about taking out the Collector base.  The squad you assembled was there to do that.  While some of them might stay on with Shepard for the big finale, a lot of them have more important things to be doing if they survive.[/quote]

No the squad you assembled in ME 2 needs to be to take out the reapers that or ME 2 marks the worst story in BW history. Mostly in execution. A game about making a team, and soley about making a team and taking the fight to the reapers by thwarting the collectors needs to have something other than the status of the collector base decision patch over into ME 3. If that's all they'd be importing there would be no need to import and no feeling of "Shepard Consitency" in the game. Thus reducing the impact of the final entry in shepards story and deterring others from buying it when the forum starts to get rowdy. Reviewers will also be displeased with this. I mean seriously if you really feel the only substantial decision you made in ME 2 was at the collectors base then there is no reason for you to import. Aside form teh collectors base, What other major decisions did you make, excluding DLC as not everyone can afford that(talk lack of content for new players), that weren't related to the team? and how can they be imported? would you not feel gipped if some of those loyalty missions didn't transfer and you weren't rewarded for the good job you did in ME 3.

it's not a punishment to lock characters out due to death either. it's simply nuetral.

if you don't think you're fighting against the Reapers in ME 2 i'd suggest replaying from ME 1 up and looking at the overarching story(the one that matters) not the craptastic standalone. different issue entirely though.

[quote]
If you think that the entire crew would just hang out on the Normandy between ME2 & ME3, or that Shepard isn't going to accept further help as he goes along in the last game (or, for that matter, worry about individual loyalty missions when the galaxy is burning), then I'm not sure what to say.  Shepard's interest in loyalty will be in fleets and planets, and the ME2 survivors are going to be mainly important insofar as they may make recruiting their species or special interest groups easier.[/quote]

-.-  yes i expect the people i recruited and put myself in harms way to stay on board so long as they are willing or on my payroll.  list of 6 who can quite quite easily:
kasumi
thane
samara/morinth
grunt
zaeed
jack

list of those who can quite with a little bit more explaining
tali- obvious explanation needed as admiral/killed herself out of depression

list of needed/plot armor characters
mordin
cerbereus i mean miranda/jacob
legion


People who have absolutely nothing to do after the suicide mission
kasumi
jack
thane
grunt
garrus
legion
mordin(what better way to repay society than fighting reepers-logical conclusion for the salarian)
jacob

people with possible stuff to do after suicide mission
Tali(pending loyalty results)
Miranda(Is leader of the lazarus cell)
zaeed
samarra/morinth (to be a jedi or a sith that is the question)

there are at least 8 people with absolutely nothing to do but stay onboard only 4 or so that have real legitimate reasons to leave off the bat. yes i expect the majority of the crew to not be commiting crimes and to be staying with me. durign the time frame between ME 2 and ME 3. it's a little weird you don't given the list.
[quote]
[quote]

I'm fairly doubftul that msot people who buy ME 3 are planning on playing it only 1 time, if that were the case they should just rent it at blockbuster. [/quote]

There's basically no way for me to argue about that without looking at the stats.
[/quote]

you could just look at the number of features built into each game that are there to promote replay value. like New Game + and the bonus points/talents.
[quote]
[quote]Considering they made a Default shepard, for ME 2, i'm willing to bet they'd make a default shepard for ME 3, it's sorta obvious if they wanna make money, I'm willing to bet off of the gameplay statistics, if i remember the quote from earlier(80% of all squad mates survive) the squaddies they use are part of that 80% of survivors.  so the majority of default shepards party would most likely survive. this i would say is a reasonable expectation given the statistics and replay factor the game offers to it's audience.
[/quote]

No matter who they have surviving Default Shepard's run, there's going to be considerable anger among the players if their favorite character ends up being the one that died.  Better to skirt the issue entirely and not have Default Shepard relying on who survived previous games to determine who gets to be in the squad.
[/quote]

i doubt most players who care about importability, and like it, will play the Default shep. no one i know who has played ME 1 has run a default shepard and i didn't see a whole lot of rage expressed at Wrex being dead in the default shep for ME 2. If there was rage it was brief.

Bioware could simply respond to players who have ME 2 and aren't pleased with the default shep the following:
"Shut your traps and import your saves" granted they could do so in nicer words but you should be getting the idea. the Ability to import characters negates any negative effects of deafult shep not having those characters in his squad. the argument "they can't to  please default shep players" does not hold

so any outcry about the defafult shep will be negligible among fans who have ME 2. if these are people whining about default shep or those who haven't played the series but read up on it, they should play the previous games or download some saves to import.They will also be told basically stfu and buy the games by the forumites who have done so in the past. People did that with ME 2 infact i know a few who have.


[quote]
Listen, at this point we're just talking in circles.  You seem to think that it's possible for Bioware to implement the "17 squaddie solution".  I'm going to give you 99.9% odds against it.  Let's leave it at that.[/quote]

i was thinking more of 8 or 9 not 17. 17 is exagerating quite a bit as the whole squad isn't necessary nor is it what i'm arguing. i'll agree with your 99.9% against 17 squad members 12 of which are potential imports that's ridiculous, though still feasible. However 33%-50% is i'd say with in the more realistic range of 80% chance for execution by bioware at this point.(that's 1/3 to 1/2)


 i would also agree to end it as we are most likely going to go back and forth rebut to rebut or this will soon spread into a convo about the plot in ME 2.

[darth_lopez]

Wittand25 wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

And taking all the problems that having the whole squad return as part of the squad in ME3 into account, I would say that the probability for that to happen is bellow 0.1 .

To which problems are you refering to exactly? And no, unless you mean 0.1/1, then your estimate is too extreme. In fact, I personally consider the squaddies returning likely, but uncertain at this point.

Wildly different squad-sizes making cut-scenes with the whole squad impossible; diskspace; developing 12+ power sets without making them redundant but also making sure that no subset misses important powers; creating dialog for the squad that neither bores old or confuses new players ...

And I am using the mathematical definition of probability so it has to be a number between zero (impossible) and 1 (unavoidable).  0.1 represents ten percent.

they already made half of the squad redundent in ME 2. and ME 1. XD it would be kinda funny to see a non-redundant squad with shared powers XD

That was required for the suicide mission in ME2. In order to provide more choice than right or wrong you needed at least two competent and one incompetent squad-member for each job. In ME1 you got exactly one companion from every possible class, so there is no redundancy there.

Liara and Kaiden are sentinels.

Wrex is a vangaurd,  Tali an engineer Ashley a soldier, Garrus an infiltrator.
notable talents in ME that every other character on the team has
throw
warp
lift
barrier
overload
sabotage
shield boost
ammunity
firstaid

very diverse pool indeed. almost every tech character has overload sabotage shield boost, almost every biotic character has Warp Throw Lift and Barrier. Shepard typically makes the combat difference.

other abilities stasis, only really usabel by the main character from how i understood it. Singularity relatively the same effect of incapacitation achieved by grenades, AI hackign Useless, Damping-useful, immunity and i believe neuro shock as well?

That's about a complete list not including wepons proficiencies.so yes even in ME 1 most characters have redundant powers and rarely bring anythign unique to the table.

but this goes dangerously off topic

Zulu_DFA wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...
@zulu

Stop
trying to argue semantics poorly. the intent of this thread was to
discuss the misconception of there being too many variables.

No,
the OP said that there are indeed many variables but that should not be
considered a problem. They all should be accounted for by no more then
one line in the entire game, while everything else should be tailored to
cater the characters' fanbases.

This is exactly what I found
unacceptable and game-ruining. This approach was taken with Garrus and
Tali in ME2, and it ruined both characters for me, although before ME2 I
honestly considered both of them quite interesting and entertaining.

it
ruined the game for you. Most people i know found Garrus and Tali far
more interesting after ME 2 than before ME 2 and i can see why they were
pretty bland and uneventful ME 2 actually bettered garrus solidifying
his rogue cop attitude. However tali i can see lack luster results
though she was much more active than in ME 1 in ME 2. i'm fairly certain
if we polled it the community would agree.

and he wasn't suggesting tailor the characters to the fanbase just bring them back.
just a discussion of why the misconception exists and how it could be wrong adn if it was at all possible. Not necessarly likley the conversation progressed from there.

sorry for double post again

Modifié par darth_lopez, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:29 .

[xlavaina]

I am trying to stay confident in Bioware's ability to please its fans. I fervently believe that Bioware will not disappoint us by creating an entirely new game of running around grabbing new squad members. Even worse, I refuse to believe that the majority of the most popular characters will be reduced to cameos in ME3. Characters like Garrus Tali, Wrex and Liara are iconic in the ME universe, and the possibility that ANY ME2 character will not return is absurd, and as stated much earlier in the thread (yes I read quite a bit of it), it would invalidate the entire ME2 game, since we spent the whole time collecting a team.



Addressing the point of too many variables, I have to strongly agree with the OP and disagree with the legions of people on this site (I am not trolling guys, but I have seen a huge number of people with this opinion) who believe that Bioware will be unable to incorporate all of the variables into ME3. It has been stated that ME3 is going to be a hodgepodge of imported variables, with it already being confirmed that somewhere near 1000 variables will be used in ME3. That is a ridiculous number, and if Bioware can actually live up to those expectations, then they surely can handle some squad members dying or not dying.



Another hugely annoying point that some people have made (again not trolling, just venting, they're different) is the prominence of the 2 survivor + Shep import. This is purely absurd and I believe that BW will NOT take this into major account when forging ME3. It takes a huge amount of effort to have all but 2 die. Normally on the average play through (at least on my first), I lost five people. So lets say that roughly 4-5 lost is about the average. That is a completely workable number for BW to incorporate into the next game. Besides, BW clearly wants to reward the player for having all squad members survive (hence the achievement for example).



So like everyone else, this is my 2 cents. Please don't flame or hate, I think that is detrimental to the integrity of the thread. We just gotta have faith in BW to make the right call on this matter, since it is so important. They did a great job with ME1 and 2, I'm sure they'll blow us away with 3.

[ItsFreakinJesus]

Thane could die of his disease and Mordin can die of old age. That gets rid of two squad mates, regardless of whether or not they survived an ME2 playthrough.



Legion coming back as a squad mate is unecessary. Legion should rejoin the Geth and share the newly gathered info on the Reapers to aid the Geth into coming to a consensus on the matter.



Kasumi and Zaeed I see playing a role similar to ME2, if they come back for a squad role at all. If anything, they'll be background NPC's, with Zaeed rallying random mercs or the Blue Suns and Kasumi doing her ninja stuff.



Liara is a given, as is Ashley/Kaidan.



I see Wrex coming back as a squad mate, with Grunt being relegated to NPC status. Unless Wrex is dead, of course, then I see Grunt as an actual squadmate.



It's unlikely that Tali would join the Admiralty Board, it's not in her personality. Besides, after everything she's gone through, she's going to stick by Shepard. Miranda, Jacob, and Jack I see coming back as well. Miranda and Jacob for obvious reasons, and Jack simply because Shepard wasn't out to use her and simply kill her off like everyone else she's met in life.



I don't see Mornith sticking around, it's not really in her personality. Samara, on the other hand, would obviously see it through.



And Garrus, well, he's Garrus. And the Normandy needs more calibrations.





So:

Tali

Garrus

Ashley/Kaidan

Liara

Wrex/Grunt

Miranda

Jacob

Jack

Samara



---With Minor Vocal Roles----

Zaeed

Kasumi





Thane would be dead, Mordin would be dead, Legion would be with the Geth, and Morinth would be doing her Vampire stuff because she runs away from responsibility. And I don't really think Shepard would keep someone who kills via sexual contact on the ship after the mission. Mornith is really useless and too much of a liability beyond the defeat of the Collectors.

[Phaedon]

Wittand25 wrote...
Wildly different squad-sizes making cut-scenes with the whole squad impossible; diskspace; developing 12+ power sets without making them redundant but also making sure that no subset misses important powers; creating dialog for the squad that neither bores old or confuses new players ... 

And I am using the mathematical definition of probability so it has to be a number between zero (impossible) and 1 (unavoidable).  0.1 represents ten percent.

Which should be mentioned that happens, what only once in ME2? 

Not that by any means they can't do such animations anyway.

Modifié par Phaedon, 04 janvier 2011 - 10:12 .

[lovgreno]

Elite Midget wrote...

Nothing, just me summing up the two parties.

Clearly we all know which party has the higher ground but the vocal ones will have you believe otherwise.

You have the right to your own opinions of course. But remember that hey are not facts untill we know how ME3 ends.

Moving on to some more constructive debating and guessing about the far from finished game:
A alive/dead flag is all you need to activate old squadmembers as possible returning squadmembers. If you have dead squadmembers in your save and want them back anyway, too bad for you, replay better.
Newcommers to ME3 can have the option to choose a default where all are alive and requitable and thus the new game will not alienate newcommers. Those who prefers a different start can have a alternative default start.
Some ex squad mates returning has been done before, wich has also proved to be very popular with the fans.
They can cut out some less popular squadmates in favour of a few new squadmates as that doesn't cost them much in marketing (sorry Jacob fans, I would like him back too but I got a feeling they will make him a cameo).
The new crew can be one of each base class (biotic, soldier and engineer) and thus you can always have a balanced squad no matter what class your Shepard have or how few surviving old squadmates you have.
Popular characters like Liara, Wrex, Tali and Garrus would be great to use in commercials and trailers, this is becomming more and more important all the time. Some may dislike them but I think BioWare can afford to make them dissapointed if they can please their more numerous fans they do have.
Old and proven popular squadmates = probably popular again. New squadmates = A risk taking with the fans that will take time and effort to develop even if they fail to get fan love. This has been proven with ME2.
Some dislikes fans for some strange reasons but that doesn't change the fact that fans are good to have as costumers. They know what they want for their money and tells the developers about it. And they are many and thus have much money. So pleasing fans = easy profit.

Now of course I'm not saying that this is how BioWare will do, in fact I got a feeling they will surely do something I don't expect in many ways. I can only guess about this and have neither facts nor real PROOF for anything. My point is merely that from my own limited point of wiev it seems like BioWare has the means (great fan feedback and solid experience from making the two first games) and reasons (the less risky kind of fast profit) to have returning squadmates.

Modifié par lovgreno, 04 janvier 2011 - 11:58 .

[Elite Midget]

Would it be easier if I changed the word Fact to Common Sense? I know some here are very sensative when many factors point to the complete opposite of what they have demanded and would dismiss them all since they don't factor into their grand plan of things. Thus to be more accepting of such a belief I will be willing, from henceforth, to change the word Fact to Common Sense if it will please the offended party.

[darth_lopez]

Elite Midget wrote...

Would it be easier if I changed the word Fact to Common Sense? I know some here are very sensative when many factors point to the complete opposite of what they have demanded and would dismiss them all since they don't factor into their grand plan of things.

i guess that completely explains why you cracked the way you did a page a go. Ok i'm done with my counter-assault comments on the topic of your illbehavior and "facts" using the term lightly, is that possible? to use facts lightly?


Also common sense is different from a fact. It's a type of thought process. What happens to be common sense for you is not to most other people.

Ok now i'm really done with the comments towards midget and his attitude.




@lovegreno

I can agree with pretyt much everything you said and it sounds like you're talking from teh marketing stand point. If that's the case then it deffinately continues to seem more and more likley

Modifié par darth_lopez, 04 janvier 2011 - 04:32 .

[Elite Midget]

Which is why I'm willing to concede ground and butter up the word to a less threatening take so as to not seem insensative to those that refuse to believe anything that they don't desire too. Perhaps by concedeing this it may awaken something in the Disillusioned Ones so that they may be willing to concede that they have nothing to back their claims and have many factors playing against what they ideally dream and demand of Bioware for ME3.



Of course this may all just be a pipe dream that the Disillusioned Ones have fooled themselves to believe in as well. Though by falling under the spell of a pipe dream I may grow to better understand the thought processes of the Disillusioned Ones and their unwillingness to see the data presented to them by Bioware's presentation of ME2.



This theory of mine requires further study and I believe the chances of success look quite ggrim. To alter my thought process based on intelligence, data, and past history to that based on a pipe dream which in itself is based on nothing but selfish desires that defy all logic will be a extremely difficult. I would say wish me luck but luck I will need more than luck to try and grasp the illogical mindset that the Disillusioned Ones blindly follow without question since asking questions would cause their pipe dream to collapse.



Thus such an act is clearly forbiddened and those that desire to question the illogical folly of the movement are branded as non-believers, twisters of truths, shunned by the Vocal Self-Proclaimed Leaders, and undeserving of a full standalone ME3 experience.



Most interesting indeed...

[SalsaDMA]

The suicide mission in ME2 becomes pointless as a game-mechanic if there is no consequence of them dying.

In other words, the nature of the suicide mission as a gamemechanic leads credibility to the plausibility of all the team-members from ME2 being able to return in ME3. If they don't, there is no point in even trying to make them survive while playing ME2.

They can either lock the squad at this amount and say: "Tough luck. Behave like an ass, suffer like an ass" to people that killed the entirety of their crew, or they can put in 2 extra team-members to be more than nice to thse people, with too much sugar on top for my taste.

But seriously... Unless you specifically aimed at killing your entire squad, and worked out the 'path' to be able to do this while still having Shepard survive, you're not gonna have issues with team-members if they only brought back the 'dirty dozen' from ME2.

And somehow, I think that the few people who worked hard at making Shepard the loneliest ass in the galaxy wouldn't mind that he would continue being lonely in ME3.