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[Bamboozalist]

Phaedon wrote...
Wall of text...

Phaedon you're ignoring one key thing, that while loyalty may be an SM mechanic characters can survive the SM and still not be loyal and most of their loyalty missions involve taking care of crap so they aren't "distracted" from the mission. And while you can make it through conversations so that every single character has a reason to come back, you can also make it so they have a reason not to. It's only just 3 flags for certain characters but it's more than 3 for others. For example

Garrus would be
Alive - Yes/No
Loyal - Yes/No
LI - Yes/No
Paragon and Renegade values <- this is how ME2 tracked your influence over him in ME1 and I see no reason why Bioware would change it for ME3 (Oh and before Elite Midget says there needs to be a Sidonis flag, no there doesn't the value takes care of that, just like it did for Dr. Heart from ME1 there is no flag for that)

But someone like Tali would be
Alive - Yes/No
Loyal - Yes/No
Exiled - Yes/No
Li - Yes/No
Data Revealed - Yes/No (This is important because Loyalty - No could just mean you never went there)

Then completely unrelated to Tali surviving would be
Quarians War - Yes/No

Someone like Samara would only need
Alive - Yes/No
Loyal - Yes/No
Shepard Paragon Value

Edit:

For Mordin
Alive - Yes/No
Loyal - Yes/No
Research Value (There are 4 different things you can do with the research, easier to make it a value since the difference between keeping it to cure the krogan or keeping it because it might be useful would probably be a one sentence thing)

Maelon being killed or not is kind of independent and does not rely on Mordin being alive to work same with the research. It's related to him but not directly tied to him.

Modifié par Bamboozalist, 06 janvier 2011 - 12:16 .

[Dionkey]

So I have decided to compile a list of my theory on how all appearances
in ME3 will work for each squadmate. Some things to keep in mind while
reading this are:

-Dead squadmates will not return, they could be
replaced by another character that will not join your squad and you
will have little interaction with (See Wrex's replacement on Tuchunka)
-Loyalty will not play into every appearance.
-It will be long, I will Bold all names for easier reading.
-Many assumptions throughout, this is a theory after all.
- I am going to say regardless...Alot
-Enjoy and critique.

Virmire Surviors

I will not seperate Alenko or Ashley for the fact that they play out
nearly the same in ME2 and can be expected to keep their loyalty to the
Alliance.

You will meet s/he aboard the flagship of the 5th fleet
after learning Earth is under attack. If romanced s/he is recruitable,
if not s/he will still come on a mission with you regarding Earth but
not as a squadmate.

Garrus Vakarian

Garrus
will remain on your ship regardless of loyalty, he will be an active
member of your squad and will be found "calibrating" the guns. You can
have very unique dialouge with him if you take him to Palaven during the
reapers assault.

Grunt

Grunt will return to
Tuchunka and join clan Urdnot. Depending on whether Wrex or Wreav is the
leader, he will behave differently and will not join your squad
regardless. He will be featured in the rallying of the krogans and
possibly the final battle,but, will be a smaller cameo.

Jack

Jack
will depend heavily on whether you hardened her and got her loyal. If
you get her loyal and harden her she will remain on the ship and as a
squadmate. Softening Jack will lead into a romance and will stay with
you on the ship. If no loyalty or romance is done she will leave and
will only be featured on the news or through an email. News could read
"Tatooed biotic robs bank".

Jacob Taylor

Jacob will stay regardless of loyalty in the shuttle bay doing repairs. (See Garrus ME1)
If romanced in ME2 he will have more dialouge open than normal. He will
be in the final battle regardless of loyalty or romance.

Kasumi Goto

Kasumi's
choice of keeping the Graybox will have little to no impact even though
the data onboard is sensitive. Kasumi will not be onboard the normandy
but can be found running a operation on Omega, she will give access to
supplies depending on how you treated her Loyalty in ME2. Default
characters will be assumed to take the Renegade/Neutral choice. Another
survey will be done for default characters where they can choose whether
Kasumi or Zaeed lived.

Liara Tsoni

Liara
will depends on whether you romanced her in ME1 and whether you
continued it durind ME2. She will be a key point for a good amount of
the plot and can be talked to along with romanced by heading to the
Shadow Broker's HQ. She can be recruited as a squad member only if
romanced and convinced by the final mission, she will then resign
herself as the Shadow Broker to join Shepard. Default will assume that
she is not romanced but will help Shepard none the less.

Legion

Legion will be fixed upon how you resolved the Geth base and the confrontation between him and Tali.
If
rewritten, Legion will stay on the ship as a squadmate. If the base is
destroyed, Legion will leave the normandy and will be met later during
the Quarian and Geth conflict. Convincing legion will ride on how you
resolve the situation. Default characters will assume Legion died.

Miranda Lawson

Miranda
has no reason to leave and has no where to go. If romanced and loyal
she will have more dialouge options than normal. Default will assume she
lived unromanced but loyal.

Mordin Solus

Mordin
will remain on the Ship if he loyal, if not he will join up with
Kirahee's STG team and can still be interacted with. If Mordin remains
on the ship he will be a squad member and will have unique dialouge
during a mission involving the STG.

Morinth/Samara

Outcome 1: Samara
will leave regardless of loyalty and returns to Thessia where you will
meet her assisting in the reaper defense leading Asari commandos.
Default will assume she died duirng the SM.

Outcome 2: Morinth leaves regardless of loyalty and is only mentioned as a small camero ala the news. Default assumes she dies.

Choice of the two is decided by defaults during another test/trial like the one mentioned above in Kasumi's section.

Tali'Zorah Nar Rayya

Will
depend on the same circumstances of Legion and will remain on the ship
if loyal/romanced. Will be a full time squad member if she stays on the
Normandy.

Thane Krios

Thane
will stay with Shepard if he is loyal or not, however, Thane will have
major problems throughout the story due to him not saving his Son.
Default will assume he died.

Zaeed Massani

Mr
Massani will be found running a merc group that will assist Shepard
only if loyal. This is the polar opposite for defaults depending on what
you choose during the test/trial.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats about it, was going to make a new thread but I see no point with this thread already here.
Hope you liked it [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Dionkey, 06 janvier 2011 - 12:41 .

[Phaedon]

Phaedon you're ignoring one key thing, that while loyalty may be an SM mechanic characters can survive the SM and still not be loyal and most of their loyalty missions involve taking care of crap so they aren't "distracted" from the mission. And while you can make it through conversations so that every single character has a reason to come back, you can also make it so they have a reason not to. It's only just 3 flags for certain characters but it's more than 3 for others.

I may be misunderstanding, but why not use a flag for an action that depends from the loyalty mission (Sidonis alive? y/n) but the loyalty missions themselves?

Paragon and Renegade values <- this is how ME2 tracked your influence over him in ME1 and I see no reason why Bioware would change it for ME3 (Oh and before Elite Midget says there needs to be a Sidonis flag, no there doesn't the value takes care of that, just like it did for Dr. Heart from ME1 there is no flag for that)

Other than the loyalty mission, which other mission would affect those values?

[Bamboozalist]

@Dionkey: Grunt has literally no intention of ever leaving Shepard, his battle master, and makes it pretty clear that he is looking forward to fighting bigger and better enemies in the upcoming fights. Why on earth would he leave?



@Phaedon: This is why

Sidonis - Alive or Dead (What if you simply never did the mission, that's certainly not the same thing as having Garrus let Sidonis go)

You can have people survive the SM and not be loyal, the only part they have to be loyal for is any job you pick them for (except for Miranda who will always survive the first two parts), Hold the Line can have unloyal people, especially Grunt, Garrus, and Zaeed surviving. So simply having a flag for the outcome of their mission and their status as a living person completely ignores that you just might have decided to never go do their mission.



As to what would effect this other than the loyalty mission? All of ME1's interaction with the character. Garrus' paragon and renegade scores are tracked on a scale of 6 (showing that Bioware wanted to do something varied with them) it would make sense to have Sidonis simply added to this for ME3 so that Bioware could do something out of the box with Garrus beyond a simple yes or no flag. For example if you tell Garrus that it's okay to work outside of the rules sometimes but then tell him to follow the rules other times.

[Phaedon]

@Phaedon: This is why



Sidonis - Alive or Dead (What if you simply never did the mission, that's certainly not the same thing as having Garrus let Sidonis go)



You can have people survive the SM and not be loyal, the only part they have to be loyal for is any job you pick them for (except for Miranda who will always survive the first two parts), Hold the Line can have unloyal people, especially Grunt, Garrus, and Zaeed surviving. So simply having a flag for the outcome of their mission and their status as a living person completely ignores that you just might have decided to never go do their mission.

It seems to be easier to just assume that the Sidonis alive flag is turned on if you haven't done the LM. Not that one flag would cause that much of a trouble anyway.

As to what would effect this other than the loyalty mission? All of ME1's interaction with the character. Garrus' paragon and renegade scores are tracked on a scale of 6 (showing that Bioware wanted to do something varied with them) it would make sense to have Sidonis simply added to this for ME3 so that Bioware could do something out of the box with Garrus beyond a simple yes or no flag. For example if you tell Garrus that it's okay to work outside of the rules sometimes but then tell him to follow the rules other times.

I think that such conversations (C-Sec vs Vigilantism for example) were missing from ME2 though. I didn't get the 'stages' value thing either. What's the point of importing them? Why do I need to know that I reached the 3rd stage with Ashley when I romanced Liara? I mean, this value was helpful during the game, but why does it need to be imported. Why not just change the flag depending on the outcome?

[Dionkey]

Bamboozalist wrote...

@Dionkey: Grunt has literally no intention of ever leaving Shepard, his battle master, and makes it pretty clear that he is looking forward to fighting bigger and better enemies in the upcoming fights. Why on earth would he leave?

I don't agree there. He has stated if there is more important battles to fight he will, if it means his homeworld, expect him there. That doesn't mean he won't be at the final battle, he certainly will.

[Bamboozalist]

Phaedon wrote...
Stuff that I'm removing so that we don't get into a chain quote WALL OF TEXT...

Scenario 1: Garrus never found Sidonis, Sidonis is alive and Garrus is still hurting from not getting revenge
Scenario 2: Garrus let Sidonis live and moved further down towards the Paragon path

Look how completely different those two scenarios are. That's why you would need a flag for both Sidonis being alive and going on the loyalty mission. Garrus is the most likely to stick around if you don't do his loyalty mission.

As to why they carry over the values? It allows Bioware to have options.

[Dean_the_Young]

Phaedon wrote...

I think that such conversations (C-Sec vs Vigilantism for example) were missing from ME2 though. I didn't get the 'stages' value thing either. What's the point of importing them? Why do I need to know that I reached the 3rd stage with Ashley when I romanced Liara? I mean, this value was helpful during the game, but why does it need to be imported. Why not just change the flag depending on the outcome?

To give more tools to work with as they see fit. I've heard, for example, that you didn't actually need to romance Liara in ME1 to the end, for example, to have a post-Shadow Broker relationship: if you got far enough along in the romance, but didn't complete it, you can rekindle the flames, so to speak.

For the most part, I agree with you. The ultimate outcome should matter most. But that doesn't mean mid-way flags can't be interesting (especially with something like the Ashley/Kaiden alignment switching: you could make the switch, but not complete the conversations, and what then?).

[lovgreno]

I think it's rather understandable if they rationalise away a lot of flags and consequences. Some times less is more and ME3 will be complicated enough even without many different possible consequences per surviving squadmember. So I can accept some cut content, inconsistent acting returning characters, e mails and NPCifications of previous squadmembers if it means a better game overall. We can never get everything we want. But this doesn't change the fact that some returning squadmembers seems like a possible and profitable thing to me.

[Phaedon]

Bamboozalist wrote...
Scenario 1: Garrus never found Sidonis, Sidonis is alive and Garrus is still hurting from not getting revenge
Scenario 2: Garrus let Sidonis live and moved further down towards the Paragon path

Look how completely different those two scenarios are. That's why you would need a flag for both Sidonis being alive and going on the loyalty mission. Garrus is the most likely to stick around if you don't do his loyalty mission.

As to why they carry over the values? It allows Bioware to have options.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
To give more tools to work with as they see fit. I've heard, for example, that you didn't actually need to romance Liara in ME1 to the end, for example, to have a post-Shadow Broker relationship: if you got far enough along in the romance, but didn't complete it, you can rekindle the flames, so to speak.

For the most part, I agree with you. The ultimate outcome should matter most. But that doesn't mean mid-way flags can't be interesting (especially with something like the Ashley/Kaiden alignment switching: you could make the switch, but not complete the conversations, and what then?).

You both make good points.

lovgreno wrote...

I think it's rather understandable if they rationalise away a lot of flags and consequences. Some times less is more and ME3 will be complicated enough even without many different possible consequences per surviving squadmember. So I can accept some cut content, inconsistent acting returning characters, e mails and NPCifications of previous squadmembers if it means a better game overall. We can never get everything we want. But this doesn't change the fact that some returning squadmembers seems like a possible and profitable thing to me.

Yeah, I wasn't personally bothered by the e-mails in ME2. It seemed like a good and efficient way to carry over some choices. I don't need a fully voice-acted dialogue scene with a random guy I helped in ME1.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
Stuff that I'm removing so that we don't get into a chain quote WALL OF TEXT...

Scenario 1: Garrus never found Sidonis, Sidonis is alive and Garrus is still hurting from not getting revenge
Scenario 2: Garrus let Sidonis live and moved further down towards the Paragon path

Look how completely different those two scenarios are. That's why you would need a flag for both Sidonis being alive and going on the loyalty mission. Garrus is the most likely to stick around if you don't do his loyalty mission.

As to why they carry over the values? It allows Bioware to have options.

If you never recruited Garrus in ME. It is more or less assumed you did in ME2. If Wrex was ignored, he is dead in ME2 if I am not mistaken. Bioware will not account for every single possible variable should the squad mates return in active form. They will program assumptions primarily to relatively minor story arcs. What is entirely probable for Garrus would be the following...

- The outcome of the loyalty mission will partially alter Garrus' demeanor in similar fashion to what was portrayed in ME2.
- If the loyalty mission was skipped. It will presume a default choice with as little variables necessary as possible. This would ultimately be the Renegade choice.

Why? Story wise we could surmise Garrus was able to track down Sidonis on his own and without being convinced otherwise, killed him. This is essentially what Bioware does with a default Shepard. I cannot imagine it would be different for Garrus.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 06 janvier 2011 - 02:48 .

[Phaedon]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
If you never recruited Garrus in ME. It is more or less assumed you did in ME2. If Wrex was ignored, he is dead in ME2 if I am not mistaken. Bioware will not account for every single possible variable should the squad mates return in active form. They will program assumptions primarily to relatively minor story arcs. What is entirely probable for Garrus would be the following...

- The outcome of the loyalty mission will partially alter Garrus' demeanor in similar fashion to what was portrayed in ME2.
- If the loyalty mission was skipped. It will presume a default choice with as little variables necessary as possible. This would ultimately be the Renegade choice.

Why? Story wise we could surmise Garrus was able to track down Sidonis on his own and without being convinced otherwise, killed him. This is essentially what Bioware does with a default Shepard. I cannot imagine it would be different for Garrus.

Actually, that's wrong. When you meet Garrus again (you have met him before, just not recruited him), the dialogue is different.

[darth_lopez]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...




- The outcome of the loyalty mission will partially alter Garrus' demeanor in similar fashion to what was portrayed in ME2.
- If the loyalty mission was skipped. It will presume a default choice with as little variables necessary as possible. This would ultimately be the Renegade choice.

Why? Story wise we could surmise Garrus was able to track down Sidonis on his own and without being convinced otherwise, killed him. This is essentially what Bioware does with a default Shepard. I cannot imagine it would be different for Garrus.

i'd say this is a good example for the use of loyalty as a flag in some cases if the character has the ability to return. For example if Garrus survives the SM but you haven't tracked down sidonis, and given garrus' determination and feeling of responsibility over the deaths of his team, it would be logical to assume if his mission was not completed he would leave the normandy to hunt him down and take him out leaving a bloody path in his wake and eventually being arrested by C-Sec for Mass Murder.

you could apply this to tali where if the player didn't do her loyalty mission you loose favor with the admiralty bored, because tali was on  your crew, and tali is auto exiled.

This could also make characters like Miranda and Jacob, who seem too protected by plot armor, leave the crew. Jacobs curiosity his lead compels him to leave the crew and check it out with out shepard there for morale support jacob retires early alerts the authorities of his fathers deads and goes of to quitely contemplate everything. Miranda instead is killed by mercenaries trying to protect her sister or constantly shadows over her not trusting anyone else to do the job after niket betrayed her.

The application of the loyalty flag in some cases of returning members can be a good tool. It also gives the player more control of the party members they have in ME 3. I'm not saying that it's necessary just saying that there are situations like this that could be made a bit more intersting through use of a loyalty flag.

[Phaedon]

Reapers are reaping the whole galaxy, I don't think that the loyalty will really matter. I mean, it won't make a lot of sense for squaddies to give up and get distracted by something else.

[Alienmorph]

The loyalty is 90% related to the character survival or not during the Suicide Mission... the consequences of our choices during the loyalty quests might be no direclty related to the characters. Rewriting or not the heretic geths for example is not related directly to Legion, he just launch the quest, but we'll see the consequences of that decision anyway. The main variable remains dead or alive after the SM... loyalty could easily ignored, assuming that everyone Shepard was able to bring back from Collector's main base will become automatic loyal.

[darth_lopez]

that's true, but we still don't know the time frame and if it's been a few years non-loyal team members who weren't with shepard in ME 1 might begin to feel he is really insane, like the Turian Councilor, or non-loyal members from ME 1 may persue their own venues. It does complicate things a bit more but it could be useful.



I'm willing to bet that BW would do something related to loyalty from ME 2 in ME 3 but i'm also willing to bet it would have a very small impact. I'm not thinking my suggestion has a high chance of probability, just proposing a potentially useful application of the loyalty mission.



although i do think that there will be some reprucussion to not doing tali's, While i've already shown nothing changes situationally from not doing legions(though perhaps he will turn on you if he's not loyal, i.e. re-written?), thus making only it's completion meaningful, mordin's falls into an area that it will also need a default resolution

[Phaedon]

Not doing Tali's and Legion's will be interesting...

[Alienmorph]

It will be interesting if loyalty counts for ME3 importing, but if BW have to simplify a few the things to bring back the squadmates, I see loyalty as the first one that goes away, for the upper motivations. Also, Tali and Legion are two of the characters with the weakest defenses... it's almost imperative make them loyalt to let them survive SM... maybe that was done to force the player to do the LQ, seeying how much important are for the geth/quarian subplot. But yes, not recruiting Tali, Thane and Samara, and not doing Tali and Legion's LQ should have some negatie feedback.



About the timeshift, we'll see... with Thane that probably left less than an year remained to live the timeshift shouldn't be too hudge, assuming that BW will let us see at least his dead at the beginning of the game, if it won't be full playable again.

[darth_lopez]

well not doing legions won't change anything situationaly, the geth will all still be viewed as evil organic hating monsters thye'll just have re-enforcements maybe legion will also be re-written in which case he may try to kill you but that is the only possible effect of not doing his loyalty mission; and even then the effect should only happen when he reconnects with a true-geth hub right?

Talis is a relatively interesting outcome for not doing it, Mordin's presents the largest change for not doing his: potential genophage cure, Krogan Civil War, Rebirth of Krogan Rebellions under Blood Pack Leadership, Urdnot Power Lose...it could be most interesting indeed.

and the thing about Thane is as unpopular an idea it might be he might still die during the credits :/ that or mordin cures keprals syndrome neither would suprise me.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 06 janvier 2011 - 04:18 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Alienmorph wrote...

(...)

About the timeshift, we'll see... with Thane that probably left less than an year remained to live the timeshift shouldn't be too hudge, assuming that BW will let us see at least his dead at the beginning of the game, if it won't be full playable again.

Ugh, no offense to you, but what the hell is up with people conveniently repeating this same mistake and saying Thane only has a year to live?

Thane never said that. What he did say was he had 8-12 months until his condition starts showing symptoms. That is to say, he has a chance to live for well over a year; it's just that his illness will incapacitate him in about a year but NOT KILL HIM.

[darth_lopez]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Alienmorph wrote...

(...)

About the timeshift, we'll see... with Thane that probably left less than an year remained to live the timeshift shouldn't be too hudge, assuming that BW will let us see at least his dead at the beginning of the game, if it won't be full playable again.

Ugh, no offense to you, but what the hell is up with people conveniently repeating this same mistake and saying Thane only has a year to live?

Thane never said that. What he did say was he had 8-12 months until his condition starts showing symptoms. That is to say, he has a chance to live for well over a year; it's just that his illness will incapacitate him in about a year but NOT KILL HIM.

Incapacitation = uselessness

He becomes raw cameo potential or a third joker, and we already have 2 jokers(EDI) while he may not be dead it is certaintly grounds to dismiss him.
EDit:
another thing i noticed about thane recently is he looks just like abesapian from hellboy. their just opposites Abe likes water Drells do not

Modifié par darth_lopez, 06 janvier 2011 - 04:24 .

[Alienmorph]

His LotSB dossiers seems to point that the symptoms might already started but that he's still feel enough good to hide that.

http://masseffect.wi...ers/Thane_Krios

Modifié par Alienmorph, 06 janvier 2011 - 04:25 .

[Phaedon]

What will the symptoms be anyway? Maybe he will still be capable of fighting?

[darth_lopez]

that's a good question >>