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A common misconception about squadmates in ME3


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#501
Elite Midget

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You already know my views and I'm really not liking that so many are giving good reasons why others will leave than make exceptions for Tali and Garrus and making weak arguements/excuses on why they must return to Squaddie status.

Personally I'm prepareing for the worst. All killable Squaddies wont return to Squaddie status outside DLC. It's just that simple and is the path that is effective, cuts costs, speeds up development time, and is simply common sense.

Not to mention the MANY hints that Bioware dropped off in ME2 that would give MANY valid reasons for ALL of the Squaddies to leave your command. Especially since ME3 takes place at least a couple of years later.

Though you may continue if you wish to live in a fantasy where Bioware has all the money and time in the world to fully intergrate the dead for what 'you' demand should be done for the finale.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 14 février 2011 - 03:55 .


#502
Terraneaux

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Elite Midget wrote...

Personally I'm prepareing for the worst. All killable Squaddies wont return to Squaddie status outside DLC. It's just that simple and is the path that is effective, cuts costs, speeds up development time, and is simply common sense. 


Well, it makes for a ****tier game and story.  

#503
Arcturus Shepard

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Elite Midget wrote...

You already know my views and I'm really not liking that so many are giving good reasons why others will leave than make exceptions for Tali and Garrus and making weak arguements/excuses on why they must return to Squaddie status.


Tali, Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob make the most sense out of all of them (Miranda and Jacob if you turn against TIM). Tali because she's now Tali'zorah vas NORMANDY. Its her home ship now. This is especially true if she gets exiled. It would take a pretty cold Shepard to turn his back on her then. Garrus to, doesn't really have anywhere else to go after his squad got wiped out. Miranda and Jacob could probably leave even if you turn against TIM but they could just as well stay. I'd say 50/50 with it more likely if they were romanced. So in order of probability: Tali, Garrus, Jacob, Miranda, Mordin, Jack, Grunt, Thane, Legion, Samara/Morinth, Kasumi, Zaeed.

Personally I'm prepareing for the worst. All killable Squaddies wont return to Squaddie status outside DLC. It's just that simple and is the path that is effective, cuts costs, speeds up development time, and is simply common sense.
Not to mention the MANY hints that Bioware dropped off in ME2 that would give MANY valid reasons for ALL of the Squaddies to leave your command. Especially since ME3 takes place at least a couple of years later.


Perhaps. They could go find all new VAs for an all new squad just because some people made some stupid and/or intentional mistakes. They could reduce the role of the people you just walked into hell with (perhaps twice) to a few lines and/or some DLC. They could.
But that would be stupid. It would probably be easier just to assume that most or all of your team survived the SM. For those whose team got slaughtered...that sucks. You should have listened to the constant warnings that this is indeed a SUICIDE MISSION. I would like to see some choices that actually have dire consquences in this game. I don't think it unrealistic for Shepard to have four squaddies in ME3 or a dozen depending on his choices. Also as far as costs sure it would be expensive. BioWare games usually are. And for dev time, well they already have their engine, they don't need to reinvent the wheel here. All they really need is new/redesigned characters, weapons, ships, environments, etc and dialogue as well as tweaking what they've already got. I mean, a game that actually says "Hey you really ****** up that suicide mission. Good luck with the Reapers now" would be more than profitable, possibly even legendary. Choics and consequences are what ME is about and if BioWare focuses on those consequences they easily have the ability to make a game head-and-shoulders above the rest. 

#504
levannar

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After reading through the thread, I'd like to point out something no-one has brought up yet.

I'd say around 80% of ME2's content was about squadmates. Around half of this 80% was about recruiting them so that you can succeed in the suicide mission. The other half was there to determine who would survive said mission: loyalty quests, ship upgrades and decisions throughout the SM. All of these are there to decide what situation you'll be in after the mission. Most of it optional content by the way--going by the aforementioned percentages, about 40% of the game.

It's an awful lot of fuss about people who have no significant role or purpose after the mission.

Why would 40% of ME2's content be dedicated to a choice if that choice turns out to be completely insignificant in ME3? Of course, now you might point out that the very same thing happened with ME1 and 2. And of course, it might happen again--I don't pretend to know what the devs will come up with. All I'm saying is that the 'waste of resources' argument is kind of invalid since if no squadmates return to avoid a waste of resources, 40% of ME2 will have been exactly that--a waste of resources.

Also, just an afterthought. Wouldn't the people who import 2 squadmates actually be pissed if ME3 played out the same for them as with importing the full squad? One of the biggest complaints about ME is that the decisions have no effect on the gameplay. I literally see no reason for BW to go that route other than 'it's the easiest and cheapest way', which, let's admit, hasn't exactly been their biggest priority so far.

And for the record: I'm not saying there shouldn't be new squadmates at all, or that the entire squad must return. :)

#505
AkiKishi

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Quole wrote...

Honestly, having a SM in the second act seemed incredibly stupid to me.



If it had actually played out like a suicide mission leaving a lone Shepard that would have been quite effective. As it was done though, nothing about it really says suicide mission.

#506
CroGamer002

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Wittand25 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Miranda - nothing
Jacob - nothing
Garrus - nothing
Mordin - nothing
Grunt - he may return on Tuchanke but he never said he would go back after Suicide Mission and what if he is unloyal?
Jack - nothing
Tali - she never said that. Also what if you didn't do loyalty mission or exiled?
Thane - I don't recall he saying anything about leaving. Also what if you fail his loyalty?
Samara - I agree, but if you are Paragon she promised help
Morinth - not sure
Legion - nothing

Zaeed - he's a merc. He will leave but he does know about Reapers...
Kasumi - she will disappear for her own good

Miranda- she is not the woman who takes orders and is better fitted to help Shepard by leading her own science team
Jacob- will stick with Miranda as bodyguard
Garrus- most likely to stay, but there are ways to write him out if the writers choose to do so
Mordin-  if alive better doing research in a fully equipped facility and not just the Normandy board lab
Grunt-either unloyal or member of clan Urdont, and loyalty to his clan is more important than to his battlemaster, so if clan Urdont calls he will leave.
Jack- unromanced she has little reason to stay, and even romanced she might leave and only return at the end
Tali-ask her about exile and she will tell you that an exiled Quarian can be called back to the Flotilla if needed, and since she is the expert on Geth they will call her back if they try to take back their homeworld
Thane- he clearly regrets his relationship with his son and wants to mend things between them as long as he has time.
Samara- she has her code to follow and flat out tells you that she will only follow your command until the suicide mission is over and might even have to try to kill Shepard after the suicide mission if he commits a crime while she is in the squad
Legion- hard to write out like Garrus but not impossible.



Miranda - that's stupid
Jacob - stupid do to reason of Miranda leaving is stupid
Garrus - it is confirmed that certain squadmates will stay and Garrus will stay 100% if didn't died
Mordin - agreed
Grunt - Grunt never shown any loyalty to Urdnot and he only wants to fight
Jack - she doesn't have anywhere to go and she knows about Reapers, loyal and romanced wouldn't make sense to leave
Tali - well that would just be pulling stuf out of Bioware's ass and she is more useful with Shepard then flotilla
Thane - not sure about Thane, Bioware will have to think of something very good since he can be romanced
Samara - no she will try to kill you if you're just Renegade, ME2 doesn't have approval system like DAO
Legion - same for Garrus

#507
AkiKishi

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For a game where you can only use 2 characters and there is a lot of skill overlap the squad is very bloated.




#508
Kekkis

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I just hope ME3 will not be Dr. Phil simulation. I did that in ME2. Now I want to recruit armies and fight Reapers. More main story and less side quests.

#509
Wittand25

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Mesina2 wrote...
Miranda - that's stupid
Jacob - stupid do to reason of Miranda leaving is stupid

Better than having her bore herself to death on board of the ship

Garrus - it is confirmed that certain squadmates will stay and Garrus will stay 100% if didn't died

When was it confirmed that some squadmates will stay ? I can only recall confirmation that they will be in ME3, which is not necessarily the same as them being squadmembers, but he is the most likely to be in the ME3 squad from the ME2 cast.

Grunt - Grunt never shown any loyalty to Urdnot and he only wants to fight

His loyalty mission is literally to become part of clan Urdnot and gain a purpose for fighting.

Jack - she doesn't have anywhere to go and she knows about Reapers, loyal and romanced wouldn't make sense to leave

Jack left any group she was part of before and as much as you believe in sexual healing it is unlikely that she will break her pattern now and she does not care about the reapers or the fate of others which should be clear from her dialog

Tali - well that would just be pulling stuf out of Bioware's ass and she is more useful with Shepard then flotilla

Her whole loyalty mission is about a possible attempt of the Quarians to recapture their home-world, so it is not pulling thing out of anyone´s ass and just following a plot-line that has been setup for two games now. Also unless the Quarians can get back their home-world the Flotilla would be of little use for the final fight against the reapers, so we can expect the conflict to be part of ME3

Samara - no she will try to kill you if you're just Renegade, ME2 doesn't have approval system like DAO

She threatens to kill the police officer during her recruitment mission for being paragon and following her orders. Samara does not care about paragon/renegade but the first time that Sheppard now commits what she perceives as crime would force her to fight Sheppard since her vow of obedience ended with the suicide mission. This has nothing to do with how much she likes Sheppard and therefore does not require an approval rating.

#510
CroGamer002

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Wittand25 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Miranda - that's stupid
Jacob - stupid do to reason of Miranda leaving is stupid

Better than having her bore herself to death on board of the ship


They'll be your squadmates and help so you don't waste your time to recruit people.

Grunt - Grunt never shown any loyalty to Urdnot and he only wants to fight

His loyalty mission is literally to become part of clan Urdnot and gain a purpose for fighting.


Grunt knows about Reapers and I doubt he will return to Tuchanka until  Reapers are destroyed.

Jack - she doesn't have anywhere to go and she knows about Reapers, loyal and romanced wouldn't make sense to leave

Jack left any group she was part of before and as much as you believe in sexual healing it is unlikely that she will break her pattern now and she does not care about the reapers or the fate of others which should be clear from her dialog


Hmh, Reapers will kill her too if Shepard fails? I think she'll care at least about that.

Tali - well that would just be pulling stuf out of Bioware's ass and she is more useful with Shepard then flotilla

Her whole loyalty mission is about a possible attempt of the Quarians to recapture their home-world, so it is not pulling thing out of anyone´s ass and just following a plot-line that has been setup for two games now. Also unless the Quarians can get back their home-world the Flotilla would be of little use for the final fight against the reapers, so we can expect the conflict to be part of ME3


True, but Quarians don't need Tali for that.

Samara - no she will try to kill you if you're just Renegade, ME2 doesn't have approval system like DAO

She threatens to kill the police officer during her recruitment mission for being paragon and following her orders. Samara does not care about paragon/renegade but the first time that Sheppard now commits what she perceives as crime would force her to fight Sheppard since her vow of obedience ended with the suicide mission. This has nothing to do with how much she likes Sheppard and therefore does not require an approval rating.


Heeee?

Modifié par Mesina2, 14 février 2011 - 12:54 .


#511
Wittand25

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Mesina2 wrote...
They'll be your squadmates and help so you don't waste your time to recruit people.

ME2 was the first and only time that you had to recruit people in a Bioware game, so even if the ME2 crew does not come back it is unlikely that you would have to do it in ME3. And Miranda can help Sheppard more by leaving and doing her own thing

Grunt knows about Reapers and I doubt he will return to Tuchanka until  Reapers are destroyed.

What if returning to Tuchanke helps destroying the reapers, because he acts as general/inspiration/right-hand -man or Wrex ? You act as if I suggested that he would go back and start a farm to raise Varren, which I never did.

Hmh, Reapers will kill her too if Shepard fails? I think she'll care at least about that.

Not really, She is more likely to run instead of being concerned about her own well being imo

True, but Quarians don't need Tali for that.

Yes while waging war not talking to the person with the most knowledge about your opponent and the most experience with dealing with them is a sound strategy

Heeee?

Ok that was unclear. When you first meet Samara she is held captive by an Asari cop. Samara makes it clear that she will only stay in custody for one more day during which Sheppard needs to retrieve the information she is looking for. Should Sheppard fail or not take the mission she makes it clear that after the day she will break out and kill the cop, who is only doing her duty and is therefore paragon.
In further conversations Samara makes it clear that she will try bring everyone to justice, no matter the cost, the consequences or her opinion of the culprit. So not even pure paragon Sheppard, the last hope of the universe is safe around her once her vow ends after the suicide mission.

You generally argue like that once a team-member leaves the squad they stop taking part in the general plot. But the reverse is true, as long as the ME2 squad-members remain squad-members their hands are tied and they cannot do anything against the reapers. Letting them leave the squad and assist  Sheppard on their own is a way better way for Bioware to make their existence relevant in ME3
If e.g. Tali remains a team member in ME3 her survival in ME2 becomes pointless because all that team-members do is standing around waiting for Sheppard to decide if they are allowed to follow on a mission. But if Tali returns to the Flotilla her existence and her opinion of Sheppard can influence how the Quarians threat the player and how useful they will be in the final fight,  even influencing if the player is able to safe humankind or not and so allows her to play a much more important part.

#512
Phaedon

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Elite Midget wrote...
Personally I'm prepareing for the worst. All killable Squaddies wont return to Squaddie status outside DLC. It's just that simple and is the path that is effective, , and is simply common sense.

Err no. 

the path that is effective

:blink:

cuts costs, speeds up development time

No. This is on the OP, and everyone is telling you everytime you bring it up and yet you go on. Creating new squadmates and hiring new voice actors, remaking models from scratch is probably MORE expensive.

Not to mention the MANY hints that Bioware dropped off in ME2 that would give MANY valid reasons for ALL of the Squaddies to leave your command. Especially since ME3 takes place at least a couple of years later.

Like the one from Brandon Keener?  :ph34r:

Though you may continue if you wish to live in a fantasy where Bioware has all the money and time in the world to fully intergrate the dead for what 'you' demand should be done for the finale.

I still don't understand why you continue to come to this thread when you barely read the OP or read any of the replies to your posts.

#513
AdmiralCheez

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Elite Midget is a lost cause, Phaedon. Just ignore him.

#514
Phaedon

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

Elite Midget is a lost cause, Phaedon. Just ignore him.

Yeah, good point, thanks. :)

#515
Pwener2313

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If i see a single recruitment mission on the journal Im gonna be pissed. I'll say no more.

#516
Altered Idol

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I'd like to think some of the squadmates of ME 2 will return. After all, they are the best of the best. If they aren't around to fight the Reapers, then its a second-rate squad we are talking about!



I think we will probably see some characters go down the same route as Wrex which would provide space for returning ME characters or new ones. I'd think Garrus and Tali will probably see it through (assuming they survived!). I'd like to see Miranda and Mordin stay part of the team too.



Remember, thousands of your choices from both games will shape the story. I'd find it improbable that some of those decisions wouldn't be related to who survived the SM.

#517
Phaedon

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Altered Idol wrote...
Remember, thousands of your choices from both games will shape the story. I'd find it improbable that some of those decisions wouldn't be related to who survived the SM.

Please read the OP again, because I believe that you are missing the point. If you were to make a list of these decisions, I assure you that they'd be less than 30.


30 true/false flags.

#518
Altered Idol

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Phaedon wrote...

Altered Idol wrote...
Remember, thousands of your choices from both games will shape the story. I'd find it improbable that some of those decisions wouldn't be related to who survived the SM.

Please read the OP again, because I believe that you are missing the point. If you were to make a list of these decisions, I assure you that they'd be less than 30.


30 true/false flags.


I see what you are saying, my apologies.

Maybe you are right, I was simply going by what had previously been suggested.

Logically there does only appear to be a limited number of straightforward variables with regards to ME2 squadmates (live/die!). There are other decisions that would also be taken into consideration from both previous games too. (Council Live/Die,Romance Options, etc).

I'd like to think there are enough choices made to make my various playthroughts relativelt distinct.

Modifié par Altered Idol, 14 février 2011 - 06:41 .


#519
Phaedon

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A fact that you might find interesting. ME3's import system will deal with more variables than ME2 did, source in the Confirmed Features thread.

#520
AkiKishi

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Phaedon wrote...

Altered Idol wrote...
Remember, thousands of your choices from both games will shape the story. I'd find it improbable that some of those decisions wouldn't be related to who survived the SM.

Please read the OP again, because I believe that you are missing the point. If you were to make a list of these decisions, I assure you that they'd be less than 30.


30 true/false flags.


1000's ? All the key choices are in the comic. I think there are 6 in total (it's around that anyway).

You need a viable squad whatever outcome ME2 had.

Add nothing new and what is the point of anyone who has not played ME2 playing ME3 ? Even trilogiy games unless they are expansion packs must stand as individual pieces or entertainment.

Chatting to your squad is a part of the ME experience. If you already have a squad from ME2 then you already know them. Which is probably why Tali and Garrus don't have a whole lot to say overall. That's a very silent ship over 12 squad members.

Lets have a look.

Dead or alive *12
LI or not *6
Activated *2
Sold *1
Asleep *1
Recruited * ? I've already had enough of plotting variables...


Phaedon wrote...

A fact that you might find interesting. ME3's import system will deal with more variables than ME2 did, source in the Confirmed Features thread.


Thats a given anyway it would have to account for what you did in ME1 in addition to what you did in ME2.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 14 février 2011 - 06:48 .


#521
Pwener2313

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^But will it amount to anything actually good or is it just more Emails?

#522
Altered Idol

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I'm not overly concerned about the number of variables but moreso the effect on the story. I've got different playthroughs with different choices/options/behaviours. I just hope that when I play ME3, those choices will make my first playthrough distinct to my second with a different character.



I'm confident it will do but it's a wait and see thing.

#523
Phaedon

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[quote]BobSmith101 wrote...
1000's ? All the key choices are in the comic. I think there are 6 in total (it's around that anyway).[/quote]
Yeah, well you don't need 1000s of variables for just the squadmates.

[quote]You need a viable squad whatever outcome ME2 had.[/quote]
If less than two squaddies survive, your game is not importable.

[quote]Add nothing new and what is the point of anyone who has not played ME2 playing ME3 ? Even trilogiy games unless they are expansion packs must stand as individual pieces or entertainment.[/quote]
Addressed earlier.

[quote]Chatting to your squad is a part of the ME experience. If you already have a squad from ME2 then you already know them. Which is probably why Tali and Garrus don't have a whole lot to say overall. That's a very silent ship over 12 squad members.[/quote]
Except that Tali and Garrus have more dialogue than they had in ME.

[quote]Lets have a look.

Dead or alive *12
LI or not *6
Activated *2
Sold *1
Asleep *1
Recruited * ? I've already had enough of plotting variables... [/quote]
No, you have to recruit ALL of the squadmates. As for the rest, that's 22 flags? 22<30
Add a couple of flags for each LM conflict and you still have them under 30.



[quote]Thats a given anyway it would have to account for what you did in ME1 in addition to what you did in ME2.

[/quote]
So? You still get more consequences than in ME2?

#524
Barquiel

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I still don't know what the "common misconception" is.

Wrex dies - you're right, it is one true/false flag (variable)
...and his role in ME2 is limited because of that variable.

Modifié par Barquiel, 14 février 2011 - 06:55 .


#525
Phaedon

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Barquiel wrote...

I still don't know what the "common misconception" is.

Wrex dies - you're right, it is one true/false flag (variable)
...and his role in ME2 is limited because of that variable.

1) Wrex won't return in ME3?
2) Unlike the ME2 squaddies you didn't just lose content, you had to replace content all together.