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[AdmiralCheez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
Like the one from Brandon Keener?  

Garrus, ME1 = 170 lines on the Normandy;
Garrus, ME2 = 146 lines on the Normandy.

Sure, there can't be nothing wrong with it. 

How many of those 170 lines were "Commander, I wanted to thank you?"

Garrus still had his "calibrations" in ME1; they just took five minutes to get through instead of thirty seconds.

Also, Keener's hint:

Retroplayer- Brandon, are you hopeful that they end
Garrus’ story arc in a meaningful and fitting way in Mass Effect 3?
Also, how would you like to see his story end?
Brandon- The writing team at BioWare has created an
intricate character with more layers and back story than most characters
I play in film and TV. I trust their vision for Garrus’ next adventures
will be dynamic and satisfying. I do hope there’s some romance
involved.
Retroplayer- While I can appreciate you probably
signed a non-disclosure agreement for Mass Effect 3, what do you think
we should expect from it?
Brandon- I have no idea, but I’m sure it won’t disappoint.
Retroplayer- How do you want Garrus to be remembered?
Brandon- There’s still a lot of story to be told…

Source.

[AdmiralCheez]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Which is why Baldurs Gate never let you max out. It's not rocket science is it ?

Problem is, in both ME1 and ME2, maxing out isn't that hard.

I think it's sad that someones Idea of what an RPG is has been reduced to "level grinding" I blame WoW.

Well, then they shouldn't be defined by giant and cumbersome inventories, either.

"classical" RPG elements, I mock them

[Phaedon]

I still can't fathom the connection between calibrations and the Retroplayer hint.

[AkiKishi]

Phaedon wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
You mean RPGs that claim to be trilogies or RPGs that just have the same franchise name ?

Yes, go on with that list please.

It would be a long list....

I'll just do the Final Fantasy thing, it's probably the most well known.

With the Exception of FFX to FFX-2 there is no continuation it's all new characters. Even in FFX-2 there is an explanation for Yuna and Rikku's skills Paine is a new character.  
There will be an FFXIII-2 but no details of that. I'm just including it for completeness.

Baldurs Gate - designed as a trilogy.
NwN expanded level cap with expansions

In other cases like Fallout, you have self contained ending in each game. Fallout 2 had different character to FO1 hence they started at level 1.

If ME wants to be Shepard centric it's not unreasonable to want him carried over intact. If it was just a trilogy about the Reapers with different PCs in each game. Then it is not even an issue.

[AdmiralCheez]

Phaedon wrote...

I still can't fathom the connection between calibrations and the Retroplayer hint.

It's Zulu.  Making nonsensical connections is his favorite past-time.

[Phaedon]

BobSmith101 wrote...
It would be a long list.... 

I'll just do the Final Fantasy thing, it's probably the most well known.

With the Exception of FFX to FFX-2 there is no continuation it's all new characters. Even in FFX-2 there is an explanation for Yuna and Rikku's skills Paine is a new character.  
There will be an FFXIII-2 but no details of that. I'm just including it for completeness.

Baldurs Gate - designed as a trilogy.
NwN expanded level cap with expansions

In other cases like Fallout, you have self contained ending in each game. Fallout 2 had different character to FO1 hence they started at level 1.

If ME wants to be Shepard centric it's not unreasonable to want him carried over intact. If it was just a trilogy about the Reapers with different PCs in each game. Then it is not even an issue.

So... the only games that use this mechanism are two RPGs that use the traditional mechanisms anyway.
Well, it's not exactly a long list, and I don't see how you can get to demand to see that mechanism make a return. 

Modifié par Phaedon, 14 février 2011 - 08:10 .

[darth_lopez]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Having a reason is why it's an RPG. In ME2 you are level 1 again , but there is a reason however ridiculous. Quite what you would plan for ME3 as being the reasons for the re-set, well I look forward to hearing those.

If they come back then I want them the same as when the left same as I want my character the same as it was at the end of ME2 unless there is a VERY good reason. If they are reset to level one, thats even less reason to carry them over in favour of new ones.

I'm sorry but wtf does Lvl hav e to do with this? It's a balance mechanism. If they choose to Start From Level 30 and work your way up further you are still just starting at Level 1 again(30 being the new origin oddly enough makes it equal to lvl 1) And it means all of your Tier 4 abilities will be nerfed to hell for the sake of balance.

I mean seriously 25%-75% of the fun of an RPG is the level grinding and power selection for those who don't like leveling the AUTO-LEVEL button is there for a reason. 

And yes it would be logically awkward to see commander shepard start from Level 1 again but you know what?
NO ONE HAD A PROBLEM WITH AN ELITE HUMAN SPECIAL FORCES OPERATIVE STARTING AT A PANZY LVL 1 IN ME 1(look at me i can type in caps)Granted # 1 had NG+ which fixed this problem and ultimately robbed the game of it's challenge. (still haven't completed any of my NG+ play throughs....i know bad me choosing to waste resources like that.. but it's all bioware's fault because they chose to put it in and require me to play the game to use it. So it's not my fault they were the ones wasting resources by simply including the feature(see what i did there?))

i Mean seriously if the Level progression is what really irks you just just stop playing Video Games. Just stop. All games will "reset" your character to Panda Marine Level for the sake of balance, assuming they don't have NG+.

However. ME 2 didn't reset your character entirely. You could Easily start as Level 5 by maxing out. Typically i start at Level 3 because all my characters hit around 54 on the the first playthrough. So unless you play Default, or you just blew through ME 1 like a bat out of hell, you won't ever really start at level 1 in ME 2 assuming you import your character, or you're a PS 3 owner. (and if you don't import shame on bioware for including the wasted resources in the game( i did it again tee-hee ))

As far as party members go. Start them over or don't start them over. Frankly half of the party memmbers you get start at your level so i don't see what the problem is with "leveling" them again for balance sake. It's not much fun if you just tell garrus to use hydro pump and kill the reaper menace in 32 seconds 

[CroGamer002]

Pwener2313 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

And we got biggest douchebag in Mass Effect 2.

Success?

Noooooooooooooooooooooo

By success I meant to feel sorry for killing Wrex.

[AkiKishi]

Phaedon wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
It would be a long list.... 

I'll just do the Final Fantasy thing, it's probably the most well known.

With the Exception of FFX to FFX-2 there is no continuation it's all new characters. Even in FFX-2 there is an explanation for Yuna and Rikku's skills Paine is a new character.  
There will be an FFXIII-2 but no details of that. I'm just including it for completeness.

Baldurs Gate - designed as a trilogy.
NwN expanded level cap with expansions

In other cases like Fallout, you have self contained ending in each game. Fallout 2 had different character to FO1 hence they started at level 1.

If ME wants to be Shepard centric it's not unreasonable to want him carried over intact. If it was just a trilogy about the Reapers with different PCs in each game. Then it is not even an issue.

So... the only games that use this mechanism are two RPGs that use the traditional mechanisms anyway.
Well, it's not exactly a long list, and I don't see how you can get to demand to see that mechanism make a return. 

Because it's a trilogy I don't expect to be reset to level 1 anymore than Luke was reset to level 1 at the begining of ESB or Jedi. As an RPG I expect continuity the same as I would expect from a book.

You may have noticed there are very few RPG trilogies that use the same PC.

[CroGamer002]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

You could lose - Mordin. Grunt, Jacob ,Miranda, Thane. That means a lot of your anti armour abilities are gone.Ditto with theguys with overload.  Unless the game somehow makes up for that, then you have a serious imbalance.

Well then you're kind of a dipsh*t for killing off all your squadmates, bro.  There's probably going to be a small batch of new squaddies to cover your bases, anyway.  Just in case, you know, you suck that bad.

Hey!

Modifié par Mesina2, 14 février 2011 - 08:19 .

[darth_lopez]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
It would be a long list.... 

I'll just do the Final Fantasy thing, it's probably the most well known.

With the Exception of FFX to FFX-2 there is no continuation it's all new characters. Even in FFX-2 there is an explanation for Yuna and Rikku's skills Paine is a new character.  
There will be an FFXIII-2 but no details of that. I'm just including it for completeness.

Baldurs Gate - designed as a trilogy.
NwN expanded level cap with expansions

In other cases like Fallout, you have self contained ending in each game. Fallout 2 had different character to FO1 hence they started at level 1.

If ME wants to be Shepard centric it's not unreasonable to want him carried over intact. If it was just a trilogy about the Reapers with different PCs in each game. Then it is not even an issue.

So... the only games that use this mechanism are two RPGs that use the traditional mechanisms anyway.
Well, it's not exactly a long list, and I don't see how you can get to demand to see that mechanism make a return. 

Because it's a trilogy I don't expect to be reset to level 1 anymore than Luke was reset to level 1 at the begining of ESB or Jedi. As an RPG I expect continuity the same as I would expect from a book.

You may have noticed there are very few RPG trilogies that use the same PC.

dude luke is still at like -21 incomparrison to other jedi. Please do not compare his level to shep. Star Wars is also a Movie. And while good for mapping the cinematic flow of the game it's not very good at mirroring how the game plays Which is the important thing to remember considering that the Lvl Mechanism is a thing born of balance.

[CroGamer002]

BobSmith101 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

You are missing the point.  You can't start a game already maxed out because that doesn't leave any room for your skills to grow.  There doesn't need to be a reason for it because, when there is, it seems horribly contrived (Lazarus Project).

You want ME3 to be more like an RPG?  Then brace for level grinding.

Which is why Baldurs Gate never let you max out. It's not rocket science is it ? 

I think it's sad that someones Idea of what an RPG is has been reduced to "level grinding" I blame WoW.

Don't grind then?

[AkiKishi]

darth_lopez wrote...
I'm sorry but wtf does Lvl hav e to do with this? It's a balance mechanism. If they choose to Start From Level 30 and work your way up further you are still just starting at Level 1 again(30 being the new origin oddly enough makes it equal to lvl 1) And it means all of your Tier 4 abilities will be nerfed to hell for the sake of balance.

I mean seriously 25%-75% of the fun of an RPG is the level grinding and power selection for those who don't like leveling the AUTO-LEVEL button is there for a reason. 

And yes it would be logically awkward to see commander shepard start from Level 1 again but you know what?
NO ONE HAD A PROBLEM WITH AN ELITE HUMAN SPECIAL FORCES OPERATIVE STARTING AT A PANZY LVL 1 IN ME 1(look at me i can type in caps)Granted # 1 had NG+ which fixed this problem and ultimately robbed the game of it's challenge. (still haven't completed any of my NG+ play throughs....i know bad me choosing to waste resources like that.. but it's all bioware's fault because they chose to put it in and require me to play the game to use it. So it's not my fault they were the ones wasting resources by simply including the feature(see what i did there?))

i Mean seriously if the Level progression is what really irks you just just stop playing Video Games. Just stop. All games will "reset" your character to Panda Marine Level for the sake of balance, assuming they don't have NG+.

However. ME 2 didn't reset your character entirely. You could Easily start as Level 5 by maxing out. Typically i start at Level 3 because all my characters hit around 54 on the the first playthrough. So unless you play Default, or you just blew through ME 1 like a bat out of hell, you won't ever really start at level 1 in ME 2 assuming you import your character, or you're a PS 3 owner. (and if you don't import shame on bioware for including the wasted resources in the game( i did it again tee-hee ))

As far as party members go. Start them over or don't start them over. Frankly half of the party memmbers you get start at your level so i don't see what the problem is with "leveling" them again for balance sake. It's not much fun if you just tell garrus to use hydro pump and kill the reaper menace in 32 seconds 

Yes it's a balance mechanic, it's also brain dead games design.

Yes I did and the fact he could not hit the broad side of a barn with a sniper rifle despite being an inflitrator (in my case).

Levels only matter in RPGs, but skills matter more than levels. If it's a new character then it's a non issue. 90% of RPGs start with a new character and only share the franchise name.

I played ME , played ME2 on the PS3 because I loathe muti disk games.

[AkiKishi]

darth_lopez wrote...

dude luke is still at like -21 incomparrison to other jedi. Please do not compare his level to shep. Star Wars is also a Movie. And while good for mapping the cinematic flow of the game it's not very good at mirroring how the game plays Which is the important thing to remember considering that the Lvl Mechanism is a thing born of balance.

And that matters why ? 

George Lucas managed to write a trilogy that never required the characters to become "level 1" again with each instalment shocking isnt it.

Baldurs Gate already did it, so sorry I'm not buying any of your excuses.

Mesina2 wrote...

Don't grind then?

Never have, to me leveling is something that just happens as you play it's not something you aim for. It's the continuity that the levels/skills represent that irks me when it comes to resets.

Needing to pull that twice in a series that was always meant to be a trilogy would be laughable if it were not sad.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 14 février 2011 - 08:29 .

[CroGamer002]

^Game wouldn't be much challenging if you start game on high level.

Modifié par Mesina2, 14 février 2011 - 08:26 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Phaedon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
Like the one from Brandon Keener?  

Garrus, ME1 = 170 lines on the Normandy;
Garrus, ME2 = 146 lines on the Normandy.

Sure, there can't be nothing wrong with it. 

What.

The writers were bored with Garrus as of ME2 already, that's what. And that's why he will be remembered as "the guy in the middle of some calibrations", for the most part.

It's elemantary!

[Phaedon]

So, therefore, squaddies won't return because Bioware is obliged to implement an old and rare gameplay mechanism? Okay.

[AkiKishi]

Mesina2 wrote...

^Game wouldn't be much challenging if you start game on high level.

Misconception. Baldurs Gate was very challenging even if you were level 7-8 after the first game, level 14-16 after the second and umm forget what it was for Throne of Baal. But because the game was well designed as a trilogy based around one character the difficulty always kept pace between games. New abilities were introduced without having to wipe off your old ones.

Phaedon wrote...

So, therefore, squaddies won't return because Bioware is obliged to implement an old and rare gameplay mechanism? Okay.

If they don't come back the same are they really the same people? By resetting them as well, you are just introducing even more stupidy. Why did the best of the best as they have been called here just become the level 1 squad ? 


By ditching them you at least avoid that along with the bonus of having a lot of new stuff rather than the same stuff from ME2.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 14 février 2011 - 08:38 .

[CroGamer002]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^Game wouldn't be much challenging if you start game on high level.

Misconception. Baldurs Gate was very challenging even if you were level 7-8 after the first game, level 14-16 after the second and umm forget what it was for Throne of Baal. But because the game was well designed as a trilogy based around one character the difficulty always kept pace between games. New abilities were introduced without having to wipe off your old ones.

Never played Baldurs Gate AND Mass Effect is completely different game.

[Stazro]

BobSmith101 wrote...
George Lucas managed to write a trilogy that never required the characters to become "level 1" again with each instalment shocking isnt it.

That may have something to do with movies not having any gameplay elements at all.

[AkiKishi]

Mesina2 wrote...

Never played Baldurs Gate AND Mass Effect is completely different game.

If you had you would probably have a much lower opinion of Mass Effect as a piece of games design.

It's different but the principle is the same. Only that Baldurs Gate was a well design trilogy and Mass Effect, even if you like the individual games, is not.

[darth_lopez]

BobSmith101 wrote...


Yes it's a balance mechanic, it's also brain dead games design.

Yes I did and the fact he could not hit the broad side of a barn with a sniper rifle despite being an inflitrator (in my case).

Levels only matter in RPGs, but skills matter more than levels. If it's a new character then it's a non issue. 90% of RPGs start with a new character and only share the franchise name.

I played ME , played ME2 on the PS3 because I loathe muti disk games.

so it bothers you that super special awesome spectre candidate guy at level 1 can't do this but it's somehow still a none issue for new characters even if those characters have prior super military training apparently.

And if you didn't want to start from LVL 1 sir then you should've installed the multi disk game on your rig and played off the singular disk or used a no-cd crack(perfectly legal if you own the game) or hell even bought it on Steam No Disk needed there Assuming you are refering to the PC version (not sure if the 360 is multi  disk but i don't believe it is i'll check friday at my friends house). Ultimately the fact your shep starts from level 1 is reflective of the fact you chose to buy the PS 3 version. Those guys get a quickie comic  and that's it for back story it must really tick you off given you've played ME 1.

Honestly your talk of skills mattering more than level is highly reminiscient of some FPS players i know, And it's typically true in those games. However it confuses me for the purposes of this awkward level based discussion mainly because: 
1) if you truly feel that way you'd realize that the skill at which you play with your shepard likely won't change because of a lack of powers, as powers only augment whatever skill is there. 
2) if level didn't matter this wouldn't have ever come up.
3) i sense contradictory statements here.

and if it is a manner of consistency that is really irking you i'd love to know how you can call games that abandon their main characters a trilogy? when they are realisticly simply sequels in Name FO1, FO2, FO3, and FONV, is by no means a Quadrology simpyl because they happen in the same universe. They are, for all intents and purposes, Different games, because  they have:
1) a new main character
2) a new storyline relative to that main character
3) No over arching story.(do not confuse Universe for story)

[darth_lopez]

BobSmith101 wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

dude luke is still at like -21 incomparrison to other jedi. Please do not compare his level to shep. Star Wars is also a Movie. And while good for mapping the cinematic flow of the game it's not very good at mirroring how the game plays Which is the important thing to remember considering that the Lvl Mechanism is a thing born of balance.

And that matters why ? 

George Lucas managed to write a trilogy that never required the characters to become "level 1" again with each instalment shocking isnt it.

Baldurs Gate already did it, so sorry I'm not buying any of your excuses.

No george lucas Managed to make a Movie where consistency was maintained. If this was simply an interactive movie where all you did was make dialogue based decisions. Then It would perfectly fine. But ME is a GAME it is meant to be played and Have obstacles for the players to overcome. Obviously you are not getting the concept of a Game here and how the concept of a GAME differs from that of a movie.  

I've never played BG i've heard Good things about it. However ME is not BG sir. 

[Phaedon]

Well, I have played BG.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
The writers were bored with Garrus as of ME2 already, that's what. And that's why he will be remembered as "the guy in the middle of some calibrations", for the most part.

It's elemantary!

That's why they gave him an entire new subplot, LI, and more character than the whiny cop who doesn't like bureocracy. Your deductive skills are not doing very well, Sherlock.

Modifié par Phaedon, 14 février 2011 - 08:49 .

[AkiKishi]

darth_lopez wrote...
Honestly your talk of skills mattering more than level is highly reminiscient of some FPS players i know, And it's typically true in those games. However it confuses me for the purposes of this awkward level based discussion mainly because: 
1) if you truly feel that way you'd realize that the skill at which you play with your shepard likely won't change because of a lack of powers, as powers only augment whatever skill is there. 
2) if level didn't matter this wouldn't have ever come up.
3) i sense contradictory statements here.

and if it is a manner of consistency that is really irking you i'd love to know how you can call games that abandon their main characters a trilogy? when they are realisticly simply sequels in Name FO1, FO2, FO3, and FONV, is by no means a Quadrology simpyl because they happen in the same universe. They are, for all intents and purposes, Different games, because  they have:
1) a new main character
2) a new storyline relative to that main character
3) No over arching story.(do not confuse Universe for story)

I'm talking about character skills there not player skill. Player skill should be at the bottom of the list in an RPG it's about what your character can do, not what mad skillz you have.

Why do you think I differentiated between games with the same Franchise name and games which were supposed to be linked by the character ?

Fallout is a franchise. Final Fantasy is a franchise. More than likely after ME3 , ME will be a franchise.

ME was billed as a trilogy and uses the same character it's not unreasonable to expect continuity is it ?

darth_lopez wrote...
I've never played BG i've heard Good things about it. However ME is not BG sir. 

Like I said to the other guy I'd love to see how different your opinion of ME was if you had.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 14 février 2011 - 08:50 .