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A common misconception about squadmates in ME3


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#576
CroGamer002

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BobSmith101 wrote...

If you had you would probably have a much lower opinion of Mass Effect as a piece of games design.


Design is great, but is not challenging as I expected.

But I still didn't master Vanguard properly.

It's different but the principle is the same. Only that Baldurs Gate was a well design trilogy and Mass Effect, even if you like the individual games, is not.


Gameplay is different from both games.
Also in that kind of gameplay I usually get my ass handed to.



Mass Effect 1&2 are hybrid of shooter and RPG and shooter games are my territory.

ME1 gameplay was more tedious then challenging on Insanity, while ME2 is challenging but not as much for my gaming skills.

#577
CroGamer002

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Phaedon wrote...

Well, I have played BG.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
The writers were bored with Garrus as of ME2 already, that's what. And that's why he will be remembered as "the guy in the middle of some calibrations", for the most part.

It's elemantary!

That's why they gave him an entire new subplot, LI, and more character than the whiny cop who doesn't like bureocracy. Your deductive skills are not doing very well, Sherlock.


lol

#578
Phaedon

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No, the principle is definitely not the same. RPGs are basically simulations, once you make them hybrids, these simulations and all of the variables (items, skills, etc) are restricted to things that the player can't control.

#579
Fiery Phoenix

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ME1 on Insanity was exceptionally cheap.

#580
CroGamer002

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BobSmith101 wrote...


I'm talking about character skills there not player skill. Player skill should be at the bottom of the list in an RPG it's about what your character can do, not what mad skillz you have.

Why do you think I differentiated between games with the same Franchise name and games which were supposed to be linked by the character ?

Fallout is a franchise. Final Fantasy is a franchise. More than likely after ME3 , ME will be a franchise.

ME was billed as a trilogy and uses the same character it's not unreasonable to expect continuity is it ?



Ever heard of Metroid?

Modifié par Mesina2, 14 février 2011 - 08:56 .


#581
AkiKishi

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Phaedon wrote...

No, the principle is definitely not the same. RPGs are basically simulations, once you make them hybrids, these simulations and all of the variables (items, skills, etc) are restricted to things that the player can't control.


BG hybrid RTS/RPG
ME hybrid FPS/RPG

That's not relevent anyway. I was talking about design. If you know that you are desiging a trilogy then you should design a system that allows growth between games. BG did it, ME failed and as a result has to resort to stupid plot devices like resurection.

The fact that they appear to have done the same thing again in ME2 was just mindblowing. Still as long as there are people like you who don't care and will buy the game, they have no particular reason to make a game with continuity.


Mesina2 wrote...

Ever heard of Metroid?


Rings a bell, not an RPG from my recolections though.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 14 février 2011 - 09:01 .


#582
Zulu_DFA

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Phaedon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
The writers were bored with Garrus as of ME2 already, that's what. And that's why he will be remembered as "the guy in the middle of some calibrations", for the most part.

It's elemantary!

That's why they gave him an entire new subplot, LI, and more character than the whiny cop who doesn't like bureocracy. Your deductive skills are not doing very well, Sherlock.

You do realize that those 146 ME2 lines included all the romance and a fair chunk of the dull generic VanDammesque "Bad guy betrayed me, gotta kill bad guy" subplot? As opposed to the 170 ME1 lines the whiny cop had to say to you.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 février 2011 - 09:07 .


#583
Phaedon

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BobSmith101 wrote...
ME hybrid FPS/RPG

TPS

Zulu_DFA wrote...

You do realize that those 146 ME2 lines included all the romance and a fair chunk of the dull generic VanDammesque "Bad guy betrayed me, gotta kill bad guy" subplot? As opposed to the 170 ME1 lines the whiny cop had to say to you.

Go on, I'd like to see your point.

#584
CroGamer002

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BobSmith101 wrote...

BG hybrid RTS/RPG
ME hybrid FPS/RPG



FPS is First Person Shooter, while Mass Effect is TPS, Third Person Shooter!


Fallout 3 and New Vegas are FPS.

Modifié par Mesina2, 14 février 2011 - 09:10 .


#585
Nozybidaj

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Elyvern wrote...
But even if we set that aside, pissing fans off is a big thing, and the thousand page posts and multiple versions of squadmate threads should be a clue the size of Manhattan to Bioware. Not to mention how ME2 squadmates being reduced to cameos would simply invalidate ME2's storyline to the extent that there is no way it can be retconned or rescued. These are characters that Bioware took lengths to flesh out and elevate through their LMs and the nature of ME2's plot. To then throw away all that investment when player familarity to the franchise, the effect they can contribute to Mass Effect being an epic game is akin to throwing away valuable story telling tools.


But even if we set that aside, pissing fans off is a big thing, and the
thousand page posts and multiple versions of squadmate threads should be
a clue the size of Manhattan to Bioware. Not to mention how ME1
squadmates being reduced to cameos would simply invalidate ME1's
storyline to the extent that there is no way it can be retconned or
rescued. These are characters that Bioware took lengths to flesh out and
elevate through their interation with ME1's plot. To then throw
away all that investment when player familarity to the franchise, the
effect they can contribute to Mass Effect being an epic game is akin to
throwing away valuable story telling tools.

yeah.....  they didn't care about any of that then, and they won't now.

So you either bring them all back, and they are completely irrelevant to pushing the story forward, again.  Or you do away with them and bring in all new characters that you can make relevant to the story of ME3.  Either way is really bad.  It was bad when they did it for ME2 and it will be bad for ME3.  There is really no way around it at this point.  The story line has already been "invalidated to the extent that there is no way it can be retconned or rescued".

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 14 février 2011 - 09:14 .


#586
Mister Mida

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How can there be a misconception about anything when we practically know **** about it?

#587
Phaedon

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Mister Mida wrote...

How can there be a misconception about anything when we practically know **** about it?

Tell this to the people who claim that from a technical perspective it's impossible for squaddies to return.

#588
AkiKishi

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Nozybidaj wrote...

Elyvern wrote...
But even if we set that aside, pissing fans off is a big thing, and the thousand page posts and multiple versions of squadmate threads should be a clue the size of Manhattan to Bioware. Not to mention how ME2 squadmates being reduced to cameos would simply invalidate ME2's storyline to the extent that there is no way it can be retconned or rescued. These are characters that Bioware took lengths to flesh out and elevate through their LMs and the nature of ME2's plot. To then throw away all that investment when player familarity to the franchise, the effect they can contribute to Mass Effect being an epic game is akin to throwing away valuable story telling tools.


But even if we set that aside, pissing fans off is a big thing, and the
thousand page posts and multiple versions of squadmate threads should be
a clue the size of Manhattan to Bioware. Not to mention how ME1
squadmates being reduced to cameos would simply invalidate ME1's
storyline to the extent that there is no way it can be retconned or
rescued. These are characters that Bioware took lengths to flesh out and
elevate through their interation with ME1's plot. To then throw
away all that investment when player familarity to the franchise, the
effect they can contribute to Mass Effect being an epic game is akin to
throwing away valuable story telling tools.

yeah.....  they didn't care about any of that then, and they won't now.

So you either bring them all back, and they are completely irrelevant to pushing the story forward, again.  Or you do away with them and bring in all new characters that you can make relevant to the story of ME3.  Either way is really bad.  It was bad when they did it for ME2 and it will be bad for ME3.  There is really no way around it at this point.  The story line has already been "invalidated to the extent that there is no way it can be retconned or rescued".



Just to put it in persepective.

1% might boycott ME3
Most will whine but still buy the game whatever.
The Majority will never visit a message board.

#589
darth_lopez

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BobSmith101 wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...
Honestly your talk of skills mattering more than level is highly reminiscient of some FPS players i know, And it's typically true in those games. However it confuses me for the purposes of this awkward level based discussion mainly because: 
1) if you truly feel that way you'd realize that the skill at which you play with your shepard likely won't change because of a lack of powers, as powers only augment whatever skill is there. 
2) if level didn't matter this wouldn't have ever come up.
3) i sense contradictory statements here.

and if it is a manner of consistency that is really irking you i'd love to know how you can call games that abandon their main characters a trilogy? when they are realisticly simply sequels in Name FO1, FO2, FO3, and FONV, is by no means a Quadrology simpyl because they happen in the same universe. They are, for all intents and purposes, Different games, because  they have:
1) a new main character
2) a new storyline relative to that main character
3) No over arching story.(do not confuse Universe for story)


I'm talking about character skills there not player skill. Player skill should be at the bottom of the list in an RPG it's about what your character can do, not what mad skillz you have.

Why do you think I differentiated between games with the same Franchise name and games which were supposed to be linked by the character ?

Fallout is a franchise. Final Fantasy is a franchise. More than likely after ME3 , ME will be a franchise.


misunderstood my bad

ME was billed as a trilogy and uses the same character it's not unreasonable to expect continuity is it ?


Level is representative of the players skill. Not the Characters Skill. For all intents and purposes whether you beat ME 1 at level 24( i think this is impossible) and ME 2 at level 10(aslo impossible) even though shepard is a low level, For story telling purposes he is still a Spectre The elite of the elite Blah blah blah... etc... Blah Blah...Super human...Etc... This never changes. He has this consistent character. We know that he is this person through out the duration of the Game and we know what "Skillz" he supposedly has. this in both games was reflected in the cutscenes. It was reflected in cutscenes far better in ME 2 that shepard was infact a Bad Ass regardless of level Because that was his character. You are still playing the same  character in ME 3 you are still playing the bad ass. His level is a non-issue as it reflects the players progression through the game and minimally impacts the story of the series. If this were not the case then class would not have been capable of Reselection at the start of ME 2, as it likely will be at the start of ME 3, for some Raisin(exageration of reason). 

Now you continue to forget the most important thing to look at here. ME is a Game. With the same character over and over again. You cannot for the sake of the games balancing leave shepard a super powered Manslaughterer of doom and the Herald of synthetic distruction at the start of the next game. If they did ME 3 would need about 5-7 more new powers and a much higher level cap. This would also mean the game would need to be longer. Reason: Because Level is a measurment of player progress through the game Not soley the Characters "Skill Level" which does remain at a consistent, yet vague, super special awesome bad ass with a sledge hammer level through out the series.  You also shouldn't hit max or be anywhere close to max until the end of the game. Kotor has had this DA:O has had this ME 2 ironically enough did not even though it's predecessor did.  in RPGs the Ends typically justify the means, what i mean here is that: Ultimately shepard will lose against or defeat the reapers, and  whether he was a sentinel with no tech armor and a vibroblade who liked to go by the name of revan to his best bud Garrus Vakarian, whom he refered to Garry Vickers  or a soldier who mansmashed everything with the but of his gun, Is almost totally irrelevant. The only purpose these things have are to maintain game balance however and they do not often affect the outcome of a game or situation. Maybe you aren't understanding this?

i'm a wee bit tired atm so i'm hoping that made sense

darth_lopez wrote...
I've never played BG i've heard Good things about it. However ME is not BG sir. 


Like I said to the other guy I'd love to see how different your opinion of ME was if you had.


my opinion would most likely not change.

#590
CroGamer002

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Nozybidaj wrote...

Elyvern wrote...
But even if we set that aside, pissing fans off is a big thing, and the thousand page posts and multiple versions of squadmate threads should be a clue the size of Manhattan to Bioware. Not to mention how ME2 squadmates being reduced to cameos would simply invalidate ME2's storyline to the extent that there is no way it can be retconned or rescued. These are characters that Bioware took lengths to flesh out and elevate through their LMs and the nature of ME2's plot. To then throw away all that investment when player familarity to the franchise, the effect they can contribute to Mass Effect being an epic game is akin to throwing away valuable story telling tools.


But even if we set that aside, pissing fans off is a big thing, and the
thousand page posts and multiple versions of squadmate threads should be
a clue the size of Manhattan to Bioware. Not to mention how ME1
squadmates being reduced to cameos would simply invalidate ME1's
storyline to the extent that there is no way it can be retconned or
rescued. These are characters that Bioware took lengths to flesh out and
elevate through their interation with ME1's plot. To then throw
away all that investment when player familarity to the franchise, the
effect they can contribute to Mass Effect being an epic game is akin to
throwing away valuable story telling tools.

yeah.....  they didn't care about any of that then, and they won't now.

So you either bring them all back, and they are completely irrelevant to pushing the story forward, again.  Or you do away with them and bring in all new characters that you can make relevant to the story of ME3.  Either way is really bad.  It was bad when they did it for ME2 and it will be bad for ME3.  There is really no way around it at this point.  The story line has already been "invalidated to the extent that there is no way it can be retconned or rescued".


If that's the case you for then why are you here?

Modifié par Mesina2, 14 février 2011 - 09:18 .


#591
Nozybidaj

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Mesina2 wrote...

If that's the case you for then why are you here?


I was bored, figured I'd check to see what was happening on the forum.

#592
CroGamer002

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Nozybidaj wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

If that's the case you for then why are you here?


I was bored, figured I'd check to see what was happening on the forum.


Riiight...

#593
AkiKishi

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[quote]darth_lopez wrote...

Level is representative of the players skill. Not the Characters Skill. For all intents and purposes whether you beat ME 1 at level 24( i think this is impossible) and ME 2 at level 10(aslo impossible) even though shepard is a low level, For story telling purposes he is still a Spectre The elite of the elite Blah blah blah... etc... Blah Blah...Super human...Etc... This never changes. He has this consistent character. We know that he is this person through out the duration of the Game and we know what "Skillz" he supposedly has. this in both games was reflected in the cutscenes. It was reflected in cutscenes far better in ME 2 that shepard was infact a Bad Ass regardless of level Because that was his character. You are still playing the same  character in ME 3 you are still playing the bad ass. His level is a non-issue as it reflects the players progression through the game and minimally impacts the story of the series. If this were not the case then class would not have been capable of Reselection at the start of ME 2, as it likely will be at the start of ME 3, for some Raisin(exageration of reason). 

Now you continue to forget the most important thing to look at here. ME is a Game. With the same character over and over again. You cannot for the sake of the games balancing leave shepard a super powered Manslaughterer of doom and the Herald of synthetic distruction at the start of the next game. If they did ME 3 would need about 5-7 more new powers and a much higher level cap. This would also mean the game would need to be longer. Reason: Because Level is a measurment of player progress through the game Not soley the Characters "Skill Level" which does remain at a consistent, yet vague, super special awesome bad ass with a sledge hammer level through out the series.  You also shouldn't hit max or be anywhere close to max until the end of the game. Kotor has had this DA:O has had this ME 2 ironically enough did not even though it's predecessor did.  in RPGs the Ends typically justify the means, what i mean here is that: Ultimately shepard will lose against or defeat the reapers, and  whether he was a sentinel with no tech armor and a vibroblade who liked to go by the name of revan to his best bud Garrus Vakarian, whom he refered to Garry Vickers  or a soldier who mansmashed everything with the but of his gun, Is almost totally irrelevant. The only purpose these things have are to maintain game balance however and they do not often affect the outcome of a game or situation. Maybe you aren't understanding this?

i'm a wee bit tired atm so i'm hoping that made sense

[/quote]

my opinion would most likely not change.

[/quote]

Wrong, sorry really no other way to put it.

If I'm character level 1 I can't have maxed charge, or maxed anything for that matter. I need levels in order for my characters skills to become effective. Sure to a certain degree my skills can mitigate things, but as I found out from playing NGP insane, it's a heck of a lot easier once your Character skills and upgrades kick in.

I hate cutscene inconsistencies. Jack was a massive disapointment because they billed her as something she could never be. I tried it out on the cargo level, she lasted about 2 seconds against 3 Ymir mechs.

Do you have something against extra skills and longer games?

Levels only serve to make you stronger it's an abstract. Especially in games where things scale up anyway. What is VITAL are the skills you get alongside those levels. If you have ever played a Vanguard it's quite easy to see how they "break" the game once you reach a certain level (as long as you choose the right skills) . Before you reach that point, they are very high risk. It's the characters skills (heavy charge slowdown) 100% shield regen,lower cooldown times that makes a huge difference in performance. No matter how good your player skills are, you can't replicate that.

I'll just continue the Vanguard example a bit. I don't expect to suck in ME3 like not having my heavy charge. Just because someone is too damm lazy to design a trilogy the way it should be.

If they want to add some additional skills, no problems with that at all. But I going back to level 1 , would not make me a happy bunny.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 14 février 2011 - 09:47 .


#594
CroGamer002

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^Are you new in video gaming world?

It would explain a lot.

#595
AkiKishi

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Mesina2 wrote...

^Are you new in video gaming world?
It would explain a lot.


Other way around I think.

#596
CroGamer002

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BobSmith101 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^Are you new in video gaming world?
It would explain a lot.


Other way around I think.


It was a retorical question.

Character not doing stuff like in cutscene?
Nothing new!
And considering what type of game mechanic ME2 has you were surprised?

#597
AkiKishi

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Mesina2 wrote...

It was a retorical question.

Character not doing stuff like in cutscene?
Nothing new!
And considering what type of game mechanic ME2 has you were surprised?


Probably best to not put ^ if you don't want an answer.

Quite true, it's still a pet peeve of mine though. Always has been.

Had to be done. Never know they may have put some extra hidden anti Ymir power up in there. Not the first time a games done that following a cutscene.

#598
AdmiralCheez

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

You do realize that those 146 ME2 lines included all the romance and a fair chunk of the dull generic VanDammesque "Bad guy betrayed me, gotta kill bad guy" subplot? As opposed to the 170 ME1 lines the whiny cop had to say to you.

The whiny cop told  maybe two good stories and then spent the rest of the time basically rephrasing his last question.  Additionally, they had to record a different response for every time you told him to either follow the rules or make his own.  ME2 Garrus' dialogue was more or less linear, since he'd already made his mind up about who he was and what he wanted.

It'd be interesting to see a comparison between ME1 and 2 in regards to total lines in the game.  I'd wager they're about the same.

And, really, the lack of chit-chat probably has a lot more to do with the story structure in ME2 than anything else.  Since the main plot is so sparce, and the majority of the game was spent on subplots, there was less for each character to talk about.  A return to a plot-centered structure would allow for more universal events that each squaddie could comment on, a la Kaidan and Ashley in the first game, only perhaps more extensive since instead of just offering their opinion they could discuss it with you in-depth.

Since Garrus is well on his way to becoming Shepard's equal, this would be an ideal role for him--he could comment on your actions and explain what he would have done in your shoes (provided you don't go all renedick and tell him to shut up and fall in line).  In fact, I can see an entire subplot developing with him, where if you become more and more human-centric and start to openly screw over the other races, he'll become more distant and hostile towards you, eventually leaving the team if he decides you've gone too far.

#599
darth_lopez

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BobSmith101 wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Level is representative of the players skill. Not the Characters Skill. For all intents and purposes whether you beat ME 1 at level 24( i think this is impossible) and ME 2 at level 10(aslo impossible) even though shepard is a low level, For story telling purposes he is still a Spectre The elite of the elite Blah blah blah... etc... Blah Blah...Super human...Etc... This never changes. He has this consistent character. We know that he is this person through out the duration of the Game and we know what "Skillz" he supposedly has. this in both games was reflected in the cutscenes. It was reflected in cutscenes far better in ME 2 that shepard was infact a Bad Ass regardless of level Because that was his character. You are still playing the same  character in ME 3 you are still playing the bad ass. His level is a non-issue as it reflects the players progression through the game and minimally impacts the story of the series. If this were not the case then class would not have been capable of Reselection at the start of ME 2, as it likely will be at the start of ME 3, for some Raisin(exageration of reason). 

Now you continue to forget the most important thing to look at here. ME is a Game. With the same character over and over again. You cannot for the sake of the games balancing leave shepard a super powered Manslaughterer of doom and the Herald of synthetic distruction at the start of the next game. If they did ME 3 would need about 5-7 more new powers and a much higher level cap. This would also mean the game would need to be longer. Reason: Because Level is a measurment of player progress through the game Not soley the Characters "Skill Level" which does remain at a consistent, yet vague, super special awesome bad ass with a sledge hammer level through out the series.  You also shouldn't hit max or be anywhere close to max until the end of the game. Kotor has had this DA:O has had this ME 2 ironically enough did not even though it's predecessor did.  in RPGs the Ends typically justify the means, what i mean here is that: Ultimately shepard will lose against or defeat the reapers, and  whether he was a sentinel with no tech armor and a vibroblade who liked to go by the name of revan to his best bud Garrus Vakarian, whom he refered to Garry Vickers  or a soldier who mansmashed everything with the but of his gun, Is almost totally irrelevant. The only purpose these things have are to maintain game balance however and they do not often affect the outcome of a game or situation. Maybe you aren't understanding this?

i'm a wee bit tired atm so i'm hoping that made sense


my opinion would most likely not change.


Wrong, sorry really no other way to put it.

If I'm character level 1 I can't have maxed charge, or maxed anything for that matter. I need levels in order for my characters skills to become effective. Sure to a certain degree my skills can mitigate things, but as I found out from playing NGP insane, it's a heck of a lot easier once your Character skills and upgrades kick in.

I hate cutscene inconsistencies. Jack was a massive disapointment because they billed her as something she could never be. I tried it out on the cargo level, she lasted about 2 seconds against 3 Ymir mechs.

Do you have something against extra skills and longer games?

Levels only serve to make you stronger it's an abstract. Especially in games where things scale up anyway. What is VITAL are the skills you get alongside those levels. If you have ever played a Vanguard it's quite easy to see how they "break" the game once you reach a certain level (as long as you choose the right skills) . Before you reach that point, they are very high risk. It's the characters skills (heavy charge slowdown) 100% shield regen,lower cooldown times that makes a huge difference in performance. No matter how good your player skills are, you can't replicate that.

I'll just continue the Vanguard example a bit. I don't expect to suck in ME3 like not having my heavy charge. Just because someone is too damm lazy to design a trilogy the way it should be.

If they want to add some additional skills, no problems with that at all. But I going back to level 1 , would not make me a happy bunny.



You continue to miss the point that ME is a Game and needs balancing as a game. Starting out with Max Powers is not how you balance a game. And there were clearly abilities you gained that gave you an extreme advantage over the NPC ennemies.  Would that work for game balance? They'd have to Up the difficulty immensley because idk about you but on hardcore i can blow through the game quickly  and with minimal effort. I can't immagine it's substantially more difficult on insane. Casual Shepard becomes an unstoppable dreadnaught by level  8 if you know what your doing if not earlier. By level 14 in normal you are an unstoppable dreadnaught. veteran it's prolly around 18 or 20.  so starting out at level 30 in ME 3 with your chosen maxed out super powers would be Unbalanced as bojangles. 

From the consistency stand point this is a minor issue at worst easily rectified by the awarding of bonus points for Maxing out in ME 2. 


And from the story telling aspect Your class and powers and implementation in ME of those powers is negligible go back and play the game.



@Admiral Cheese( whom i Shall now begin to call AC if that is ok)
That suggestion for a garrus sublot is awesome. and totally possible.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 15 février 2011 - 03:22 .


#600
nevar00

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I would love to see the character returning... but unfortunately I don't see it happening, as it would require a LOT of work. But anyway... I hope that just about every one of your squad mates re-joins your squad in an irreplaceable role. There are some understandable exceptions:



the DLC characters



Thane "could" die



Samara has no real reason to hang around



neither does Jack (although being able to romance her makes this questionable)



and arguably Grunt could go help his clan







But for Garrus, Legion, Tali, Mordin, and the others to either have a minor role, or an easily replacable role, would be a smack in the face to all the fans and the story in general. For a game that prides itself on story and characters, to replace the entire surviving cast or have them reduced to minor or replacable roles (like what happened with Ashley/Kaidin and Wrex) would be inexcusable.







I understand exactly how much work this undertaking must be; they'd literally have hundreds of different possibilities to figure out... it would be a nightmare. But you know, I'm afraid that Bioware really brought that situation on themselves: as awesome as the suicide mission was, having it halfway through the story may not have been the wisest move.







Mass Effect 3 has the potential to be either one of the best games ever, or one of the most disappointing games ever. I'm really looking forward to it... but the cynic in me is preparing for the worst. I just hope Bioware doesn't let me and so many other fans down.