927 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

Wittand25 wrote...

Big stupid jellyfish wrote...

@Wittand25 So, would you dare to make a bet or not?
If you're sure that ME2 squaddies won't return as squadmates in ME3 you shouldn't be afraid of making it, really.

What would the point of a bet with a total stranger on the Internet be ? There is now way to enforce either of us to stick to it if loosing it.
And frankly betting that not all of the six ME2 LIs will be permanent companions in ME3 is like betting that the sun will rise tomorrow, it somehow lacks the thrill of possibly loosing.

That comparison is terrible.

[Big stupid jellyfish]

Wittand25 wrote...

Big stupid jellyfish wrote...

@Wittand25 So, would you dare to make a bet or not?
If you're sure that ME2 squaddies won't return as squadmates in ME3 you shouldn't be afraid of making it, really.

What would the point of a bet with a total stranger on the Internet be ? There is now way to enforce either of us to stick to it if loosing it.
And frankly betting that not all of the six ME2 LIs will be permanent companions in ME3 is like betting that the sun will rise tomorrow, it somehow lacks the thrill of possibly loosing.

A way to enforce it? Our own integrity. Straight dealing. I play fair. (And even if I lie it's not like you would lose something anyways.)

As for the latter, you're terribly wrong, mate.

Also, there's one thing I'm wondering: those who believe ME2 squaddies won't return -- they actually don't care for the characters or they, in fact, do, and support the 'ME2 team won't be recruitable' theories while their hearts are bleeding? Just curious.

[Wittand25]

Big stupid jellyfish wrote...
Also, there's one thing I'm wondering: those who believe ME2 squaddies won't return -- they actually don't care for the characters or they, in fact, do, and support the 'ME2 team won't be recruitable' theories while their hearts are bleeding? Just curious.

I do care about the characters and that is exactly why I do not want them to return I thought that would be clear by my posts. Garrus returning in ME2 annihilated any character growth he had in ME1. I do not want the ME2 crew to be reduced to pointless Normandy decoration fanning over Shepard in ME3. And that is what would happen if they return because they cannot have plot relevance on account of possibly being dead, and spreading resources over all of them means that they cannot be developed much during sidequests or interaction on board of the ship either. In my opinion the worst Bioware could possibly do is making them remain part of the squad the whole time from their recruitment in ME2 to the end of ME3.

[CroGamer002]

Wittand25 wrote...

Big stupid jellyfish wrote...
Also, there's one thing I'm wondering: those who believe ME2 squaddies won't return -- they actually don't care for the characters or they, in fact, do, and support the 'ME2 team won't be recruitable' theories while their hearts are bleeding? Just curious.

I do care about the characters and that is exactly why I do not want them to return I thought that would be clear by my posts. Garrus returning in ME2 annihilated any character growth he had in ME1. I do not want the ME2 crew to be reduced to pointless Normandy decoration fanning over Shepard in ME3. And that is what would happen if they return because they cannot have plot relevance on account of possibly being dead, and spreading resources over all of them means that they cannot be developed much during sidequests or interaction on board of the ship either. In my opinion the worst Bioware could possibly do is making them remain part of the squad the whole time from their recruitment in ME2 to the end of ME3.

Elaborate balded part please.




Also instead of keeping already written character and known to player is much harder then to write completely new one?!

[Wittand25]

Mesina2 wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

Big stupid jellyfish wrote...
Also, there's one thing I'm wondering: those who believe ME2 squaddies won't return -- they actually don't care for the characters or they, in fact, do, and support the 'ME2 team won't be recruitable' theories while their hearts are bleeding? Just curious.

I do care about the characters and that is exactly why I do not want them to return I thought that would be clear by my posts. Garrus returning in ME2 annihilated any character growth he had in ME1. I do not want the ME2 crew to be reduced to pointless Normandy decoration fanning over Shepard in ME3. And that is what would happen if they return because they cannot have plot relevance on account of possibly being dead, and spreading resources over all of them means that they cannot be developed much during sidequests or interaction on board of the ship either. In my opinion the worst Bioware could possibly do is making them remain part of the squad the whole time from their recruitment in ME2 to the end of ME3.

Elaborate balded part please.




Also instead of keeping already written character and known to player is much harder then to write completely new one?!

Skipping him, encouraging him to be paragon or to be renegade during his companion mission had zero effect on the situation he was in in ME2. His whole relationship with Shepard in ME1 was mentioned in only one sentence after which he instantly switched to "Shepard has been my best friend for years"-mode even if you just met him for the first time.

A new character is easier to write for because not only has the writer more liberties instead of being confined by already existing back-story, a new character also comes with a lot of easy to write dialog like introduction of the NPC, his/her/it´s culture and past. All of that is not true for existing NPCs.
A new NPC also allows to show a new point of view on the universe, something that the old ones cannot do as easily. And as MR. Hudson said in one interview before the launch of ME2 :"It is fun to meet new people and I hope that our fans realise that a lot of the appeal of the ME1 crew came from getting to know them and the same will be true for the ME2 crew."

[AkiKishi]

Big stupid jellyfish wrote...
Also, there's one thing I'm wondering: those who believe ME2 squaddies won't return -- they actually don't care for the characters or they, in fact, do, and support the 'ME2 team won't be recruitable' theories while their hearts are bleeding? Just curious.

Well I like them a lot. Obviously I have my favourites like everyone else. Mordin for example totally cracks me up.

Let's look at the evidence... How did Bioware "butcher" the VS in ME2 ? How many varibles did that involve ?Not many really.

Multiply that by 12 potential characters and it's a nightmare.

One of the best parts in ME2 for me as an ME player was Wrex. He moved on and is working towards his dream. As his former "boss" I'm overjoyed for him.

Wittand25 wrote...
A new character is easier to write for because not only has the writer more liberties instead of being confined by already existing back-story, a new character also comes with a lot of easy to write dialog like introduction of the NPC, his/her/it´s culture and past. All of that is not true for existing NPCs.

Bingo.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 15 février 2011 - 10:08 .

[Lunatic LK47]

Wittand25 wrote...


A new character is easier to write for because not only has the writer more liberties instead of being confined by already existing back-story, a new character also comes with a lot of easy to write dialog like introduction of the NPC, his/her/it´s culture and past. All of that is not true for existing NPCs.
A new NPC also allows to show a new point of view on the universe, something that the old ones cannot do as easily. And as MR. Hudson said in one interview before the launch of ME2 :"It is fun to meet new people and I hope that our fans realise that a lot of the appeal of the ME1 crew came from getting to know them and the same will be true for the ME2 crew."

Problem is, this is the final ****ing game. I shouldn't have to recruit another cast of characters with extra exposition for the last chapter of the trilogy.

[AkiKishi]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Problem is, this is the final ****ing game. I shouldn't have to recruit another cast of characters with extra exposition for the last chapter of the trilogy.

It was done that way in ME2 because of the design of the game. Loyalty was included as a "focus" mechanic for survivability. In ME3 recruitment would be the same as in most other games. You follow the plotline, you come across people.

Lets say you end up on Earth at some point, you may come across that guy from Big Ben. If ME is going to play out as Races vs the Reapers (just my theory) then each race sending a representative to look after their interests makes total sense. Ideally it should have been.

Grunt - Krogan
Tali - Quarian
Garrus - Turian
Legion - Geth
Etc.

But because any of those can now be dead. Its a lot more complicated.

[Zulu_DFA]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

A new character is easier to write for because not only has the writer more liberties instead of being confined by already existing back-story, a new character also comes with a lot of easy to write dialog like introduction of the NPC, his/her/it´s culture and past. All of that is not true for existing NPCs.
A new NPC also allows to show a new point of view on the universe, something that the old ones cannot do as easily. And as MR. Hudson said in one interview before the launch of ME2 :"It is fun to meet new people and I hope that our fans realise that a lot of the appeal of the ME1 crew came from getting to know them and the same will be true for the ME2 crew."

Problem is, this is the final ****ing game. I shouldn't have to recruit another cast of characters with extra exposition for the last chapter of the trilogy.

Sounds like a deeply personal problem to me.

[CroGamer002]

Wittand25 wrote...


A new character is easier to write for because not only has the writer more liberties instead of being confined by already existing back-story, a new character also comes with a lot of easy to write dialog like introduction of the NPC, his/her/it´s culture and past. All of that is not true for existing NPCs.
A new NPC also allows to show a new point of view on the universe, something that the old ones cannot do as easily. And as MR. Hudson said in one interview before the launch of ME2 :"It is fun to meet new people and I hope that our fans realise that a lot of the appeal of the ME1 crew came from getting to know them and the same will be true for the ME2 crew."

I still fail to see how is easier to make new character then to keep old one.

Dude, they have to make somebody new, make his/hers background and make him/her intresting! HOW ON EARTH IS THAT EASIER THEN TO KEEP CHARACTERS THAT ALREADY LOST OF PEOPLE LOVE?!


And how is harder for old charracter point of their point of view on the universe? That doesn't make any sense!

[CroGamer002]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Problem is, this is the final ****ing game. I shouldn't have to recruit another cast of characters with extra exposition for the last chapter of the trilogy.

It was done that way in ME2 because of the design of the game. Loyalty was included as a "focus" mechanic for survivability. In ME3 recruitment would be the same as in most other games. You follow the plotline, you come across people.

Lets say you end up on Earth at some point, you may come across that guy from Big Ben. If ME is going to play out as Races vs the Reapers (just my theory) then each race sending a representative to look after their interests makes total sense. Ideally it should have been.

Grunt - Krogan
Tali - Quarian
Garrus - Turian
Legion - Geth
Etc.

But because any of those can now be dead. Its a lot more complicated.

It's not complicated, it's just lost content.
And considering that majority of people have No One Left Behind playthrough( not just on BSN), it's not waste of Bioware's resources!



Also Mass Effect 2 was all about making a team!
If they kick out everyone or most squadmates then 90% of ME2 was waste of time.

Modifié par Mesina2, 15 février 2011 - 10:34 .

[AkiKishi]

Mesina2 wrote...

It's not complicated, it's just lost content.
And considering that majority of people have No One Left Behind playthrough( not just on BSN), it's not waste of Bioware's resources!



Also Mass Effect 2 was all about making a team!
If they kick out everyone or most squadmates then 90% of ME2 was waste of time.

Lost content is wasteful.
Do they really ? That may apply to people on here, but people on here are not typical.

Did you accomplish your goal in ME2 ? If you stopped the collectors then you did. If you accomplished the goal it was not a waste of time. Anymore than beating Sovereign in ME was a waste of time because it basically meant nothing because the Reapers got here anyway.

[Terjoh83]

Who would be alive then in a default ME3 game. Say you havent played either ME1 or ME2...What would determine the outcome then?



It is a standalone game, so you shouldn't be forced to play the previous games...And new players would perhaps find it a bit lame to not be able to recruit their own team? I dunno...



Also, there is to be released new DLC around the time ME3 comes out, that likely/maybe will build a bridge between the 2.

[CroGamer002]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

It's not complicated, it's just lost content.
And considering that majority of people have No One Left Behind playthrough( not just on BSN), it's not waste of Bioware's resources!



Also Mass Effect 2 was all about making a team!
If they kick out everyone or most squadmates then 90% of ME2 was waste of time.

Lost content is wasteful.
Do they really ? That may apply to people on here, but people on here are not typical.

Did you accomplish your goal in ME2 ? If you stopped the collectors then you did. If you accomplished the goal it was not a waste of time. Anymore than beating Sovereign in ME was a waste of time because it basically meant nothing because the Reapers got here anyway.

I said 90% of game.
You know, all those recruitment and loyalty missions.
If those are gonna be ignored in ME3 then I could have easily just skip everyone's loyalty mission and still survive Suicide Mission.

[AkiKishi]

Terjoh83 wrote...

Who would be alive then in a default ME3 game. Say you havent played either ME1 or ME2...What would determine the outcome then?

It is a standalone game, so you shouldn't be forced to play the previous games...And new players would perhaps find it a bit lame to not be able to recruit their own team? I dunno...

Also, there is to be released new DLC around the time ME3 comes out, that likely/maybe will build a bridge between the 2.

$64,000 question that..

Absolutely could not agree more.

That would be a great way to tie up lose ends with the current crew dead/alive and not have to have cameo's in ME3 at all.

[CroGamer002]

Terjoh83 wrote...

Who would be alive then in a default ME3 game. Say you havent played either ME1 or ME2...What would determine the outcome then?

It is a standalone game, so you shouldn't be forced to play the previous games...And new players would perhaps find it a bit lame to not be able to recruit their own team? I dunno...

Also, there is to be released new DLC around the time ME3 comes out, that likely/maybe will build a bridge between the 2.

Majority of people who will buy ME3, already played ME2.

Also for default squad choices, Bioware can think of something.

Example:
Everyone but DLC characters recruited.

Everyone, but with worst outcomes( Thane's, Samara's and Tali's loyalty failed fo example).

Legion sold to Cerberus.

No ship upgrades.
Jack, Tali and Thane dead.
In vents Garrus dies.
By seeker swarm Samara dies.
For 2nd fire team leader nobody dies( Jacob or Miranda).Correction, Grunt is send since Jacob or Miranda are needed for Biotic Specialist so that Samara can die and Grunt will die if he is in party with Samara, unlike Jacob and Miranda but squadmate that was alone for 2nd fire team leader can survive even unloyal
For escort Mordin was send.
At holding the line nobody dies( Grunt loyal alone can survive) and Shepard goes to fight Reaper with Miranda and Jacob.

From that 4 squadmates survived. Soldier - Grunt, Engineer - Mordin, Sentinel - Miranda, Sentinel/Vanguard - Jacob


Best for default Shepard in my opinion.

Modifié par Mesina2, 15 février 2011 - 11:03 .

[AkiKishi]

Mesina2 wrote...

From that 4 squadmates survived. Soldier - Grunt, Engineer - Mordin, Sentinel - Miranda, Sentinel/Vanguard - Jacob


Best for default Shepard in my opinion.

Grunt Inferno Ammo -anti armour
Mordin Incinerate - anti armour
Jacob Inferno Ammo - anti armour
Miranda Warp - anti armour

Miranda is your only anti barrier/shield there. Not really what you could call a balanced squad. Although I agree with your method it does not lead to a favourable conclusion.

Add to that the default class is soldier which also has inferno ammo.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 15 février 2011 - 11:23 .

[lovgreno]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Lost content is wasteful.

But is it wastefull for a majority of the people who bought and played ME1 and ME2? I get the impression that a majority of us kept everyone alive (it's not hard to do realy). And if you did lose someone and want them anyway you can just replay the two first games better. New players doesn't need to be left out either, just give them the option to choose a default start where everyone made it from ME2. So as I see it there is a possibility to make all characters availiable to every potential costumer who wants them. Sounds like profit rather than waste to me.

[AkiKishi]

lovgreno wrote...

But is it wastefull for a majority of the people who bought and played ME1 and ME2? I get the impression that a majority of us kept everyone alive (it's not hard to do realy). And if you did lose someone and want them anyway you can just replay the two first games better. New players doesn't need to be left out either, just give them the option to choose a default start where everyone made it from ME2. So as I see it there is a possibility to make all characters availiable to every potential costumer who wants them. Sounds like profit rather than waste to me.

Yes. Simple answer.

New content 100% of the people get 100% of the content.
People who never played ME1 or ME2 get 100% of the content besides the stuff that carries over and would make no sense to them anyway.

It's a nice idea but you would need to round out those characters in a way that someone new to the game could understand. Especially if those were the only options. If you already have a squad of 12 which really is oversized for a game like this anyway. Adding even more squadmembers will just make it even more bloated.

It therefore becomes essential that new players are as invested in the characters as anyone who played ME2 and that's really not an easy thing to do. In addition you then have to make the characters interesting for the people who have played ME2.We already know their backgrounds and issues, so thats a lot of "easy" material you don't have to work with as a writer.

I'd really like the opinion of someone who never played ME1 on Tali and Garrus compared to the "true" ME2 characters.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 15 février 2011 - 01:18 .

[Zulu_DFA]

BobSmith101 wrote...

you would need to round out those characters in a way that someone new to the game could understand.

This is precisely what [insert character's name here] fanboys/girls are incapable of comprehending.

Except that given all the variables involved  with the characters' loyalty missions, you would actually need to round up those characters in more ways than one.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 février 2011 - 01:52 .

[crazyaz]

but, you gotta remember the part that makes me hopeful for keeping the squad. this is "the end" of the trilogy. they can have which squadmembers are still alive from both games effect the ending. they don't need to be limited by continuity so there could be several different endings. I do think that since they seem to go with mostly renegade ME1 choices if you just played ME2. so maybe the "default" will be half of your squad dead. Maybe if they do do that it'll be randomized. certain squad members can grant you access to different endings (Legion would give you the option to communicate with the geth, Live Wrex would make getting the Krogans on your side easier.), as could certain other things like their romance status (If you romanced anyone in ME2, if they're still alive they'll be by your side, and maybe your ME1 romance won't be happy about it), loyalty (disloyal squad members won't "go the extra mile" for you. resulting in a worse ending), how well you treated the other races in ME 1&2 (for 'default' it's looking like it won't be well). It could be possible for you to lose becoming the reapers' next victims, to pull off a prothean 'sabotage em' and leave it to the next guys', or to wipe out the reapers once and for all, ending the cycle. I feel like not doing so, would waste some of the potential for it to be a Cosmic Tradgedy or Epic Tale of Victory.

I don't see too much reason for the squad members in ME2 to leave. other then the DLC's cause they were paid.

what do you think? did I do a good job? can I have a cookie?

[nevar00]

If you could have every squadmate return to your squad in the new game (which I find doubtful, unfortunately) I would think the default option would be that everyone is alive. That would be a lot of work and voice acting that would make it into the game only to not be used by anyone who didn't play the second game.

[nevar00]

BobSmith101 wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

But is it wastefull for a majority of the people who bought and played ME1 and ME2? I get the impression that a majority of us kept everyone alive (it's not hard to do realy). And if you did lose someone and want them anyway you can just replay the two first games better. New players doesn't need to be left out either, just give them the option to choose a default start where everyone made it from ME2. So as I see it there is a possibility to make all characters availiable to every potential costumer who wants them. Sounds like profit rather than waste to me.

Yes. Simple answer.

New content 100% of the people get 100% of the content.
People who never played ME1 or ME2 get 100% of the content besides the stuff that carries over and would make no sense to them anyway.

It's a nice idea but you would need to round out those characters in a way that someone new to the game could understand. Especially if those were the only options. If you already have a squad of 12 which really is oversized for a game like this anyway. Adding even more squadmembers will just make it even more bloated.

It therefore becomes essential that new players are as invested in the characters as anyone who played ME2 and that's really not an easy thing to do. In addition you then have to make the characters interesting for the people who have played ME2.We already know their backgrounds and issues, so thats a lot of "easy" material you don't have to work with as a writer.

I'd really like the opinion of someone who never played ME1 on Tali and Garrus compared to the "true" ME2 characters.

And for the 90% of us who played the first two games and are completely invested in these characters, it would be a complete slap in the face to give them minor and easily replacable cameo roles in the third game. 

If they want the players who start with ME 3 to have the full experience, then have the default option be that everyone survived.

[DTKT]

It's always a question of balance.



By keeping old characters and giving them an important role, you gain the attention of fans which have a "past" with those characters.



Now, my issue with the way Bioware works is that most character arcs in ME2 are carbon-copies of ME1. The most obvious example is Garrus. It's the same moral dillema. Do I shoot the guy and get revenge or do I make the paragon choice!?



Even when Bioware decides to import a previous character, they still try to rebuild its personna. They never assume that the player knows everything about the ME universe.



I'd argue that even when importing character, they still need to introduce it.

[nevar00]

Well then Bioware needs to come up with some new material for the old squadmates: it's that simple. For a game that is so story and character-driven, to completely water down the characters we already know and love would be a complete disappointment. It's like if Luke finished up Star Wars without Han, Leia, or the droids. It's completely underwhelming.



I understand the whole "balance" argument, but that shouldn't matter. It's a consequence of your actions. If you sucked during the SM and killed all your biotics: too bad. Although like I said a couple of characters could leave your squad and you could always get a few new ones.



And I understand how much work it would be, which is why I'm not holding my breath... but Bioware should've thought that through before having a damn suicide mission and making every character able to die halfway through the trilogy. A small replaceable role like Wrex or Ashley/Kaidan got just isn't going to cut it.