927 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

nevar00 wrote...
It's like if Luke finished up Star Wars without Han, Leia, or the droids.

That would have created a darker story, more focused on the main plot (i.e. Luke vs. Vader vs. Emperor).

[lowbattery]

tbh bioware know how much fans want me2 squad to be in me3 and someone said in here (dont know who) that like 90% of your me2 squad said they would stop the reapers what ever the case.

[AdmiralCheez]

BobSmith101 wrote...

0.Wrex only has two possible states alive/dead. Grunt has 3 alive/dead/never activated.

"Real shame Grunt died on that mission"
"Who the hell is Grunt" ?

Actually, Wrex could either be alive, dead, or never recruited.  If he was never recruited, he was assumed dead.  Also, you could have skipped Garrus in ME1, in which case he had a lot less to say in ME2 and you couldn't romance him.

It's just another box to check.  If the "Grunt recruited" box is not checked, Grunt is never mentioned.  Similarly, if Grunt died, Grunt is never mentioned, save for in passing by other krogan if you did his loyalty mission.

It gets even more complex if you want to evolve relationships.

If you're a ninny who hates a challenge.  Really, is a little nod or touch of the hand, the occasional snippet of dialogue, and a thirty-second cutscene too much to handle?  Additionally, if Shep's LI died, all someone has to say is "I know losing people was hard on you" and Shep would make a sad face.

1.Which means not only do you have to add even more NPCs to cover the possibility , but you reduce them to inconsiquential roles. Where as if you added the traditional 2 person intro team it would cover both.

Again, you are missing the point.  I am not saying that only NPCs should have plot-essential roles, nor am I saying that no squadmate should be tied to the plot.  It's perfectly acceptable to have a few new guys.  However, this does not render the old team obsolete.  Like, really, what was the point of Legolas and Gimili in Return of the King?  But they were still there, weren't they?

The only things you need to advance the plot are the hero and the bad guys.  The bad guys do bad stuff, the hero tries to stop them.  Any and all other characters are there for the sake of keeping things interesting.  With potentially dead squadmates, things have the potential to get really interesting.  They may, in fact, carry as much weight as the Council, rachni, and Collector base.  We don't know yet.

2.I could easily say the same to you stop trying to punish ME3 players by forcing them to have less content. For the record my squad is 100 % intact. Does not change my view in the slightest.

Look at your Playstation.  Now back to my computer.  Now back to your Playstation.  Now back to my computer.  Sadly, your Playstation is not my computer.  But with ME: Genesis, we can sort of pretend it is.  Well, so long as Feros, Conrad, and all sorts of other bonuses don't mean anything to you.

Anyway, the point is that people who don't play all three games are going to miss content.  That's how games with carry-over saves work.  However, since they never played the other games, this missing content will mean little to them.  And honestly, half or more of the squad could be alive in the "default" save, anyway.  I'd be able to stomach having two squadmates less than the guy who spend $50 more than I did.

Oh yeah, and Pokémon's been pulling this sh*t for years: You can't catch 'em all with just one game.

3.Your forcing a history on the player they were never part of. You could say ME2 did the same Garrus/Tali. But it's very different doing that for 12 characters than 2.

That's what they get for coming in on he final chapter of a trilogy.  Kind of like how Mass Effect 1 happened regardless of whether or not you played it.  If you didn't import, the game made your decisions for you.  However, as ME2 is now available on all three platforms, importing's going to be a lot more popular.  It's one of those "tough ******" moments.  The game will still be plenty enjoyable, just a lot less personal for the new guys.

4. I know you were being sarcastic. But that's actually true.

What, that they have one helluva budget to pull this thing off?  Resources are a non-issue.

5. Before I knew the possible outcome of the SM I'd have given Garrus/Tali a free pass to ME3 because they have been in the other games. Legion had an interesting story hook as did Grunt. However since any of those could be dead. Can't really make Grunt the key to the genophage cure if he's dead. Can't really have Tali/Legion broker peace if they are dead.

PRECISELY.  If they are dead, you are short a valuable ally.  Kind of like how if Wrex is dead, the krogans aren't attempting to unite or improve their quality of living.  CONSEQUENCES, MUTHAF*CKAS.

6.My Squad signed up for the suicide mission that implies they were not coming back anyway. That Bioware made the suicide mission a walk in the park mission is a whole other arguement.

I believe that the ease of the suicide mission, the presentation of an achievement for getting everyone out alive, and the incredibly contrived feeling of the deaths scenes all support my hypothesis that those characters were never supposed to die in the first place.  The game is actually setting you up to reload and try again, dangling a carrot in front of players so that they at least try to get one save with everyone out alive.  While some characters, such as Zaeed and Samara, signed on exclusively for the mission at hand, others feel a much deeper connection to Shepard, and those characters will undoubtedly wish to remain at his/her side come the final battle.  Your entire team walking out on you would be more contrived than the Lazarus Project and Garrus's last words (snipe one for me, would you?) combined.

[AdmiralCheez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

nevar00 wrote...
It's like if Luke finished up Star Wars without Han, Leia, or the droids.

That would have created a darker story, more focused on the main plot (i.e. Luke vs. Vader vs. Emperor).

Don't ever try to write a screenplay, Zulu.  Ever.

[lovgreno]

BobSmith101 wrote...
New content 100% of the people get 100% of the content.
People who never played ME1 or ME2 get 100% of the content besides the stuff that carries over and would make no sense to them anyway.

It's a nice idea but you would need to round out those characters in a way that someone new to the game could understand. Especially if those were the only options. If you already have a squad of 12 which really is oversized for a game like this anyway. Adding even more squadmembers will just make it even more bloated.

It therefore becomes essential that new players are as invested in the characters as anyone who played ME2 and that's really not an easy thing to do. In addition you then have to make the characters interesting for the people who have played ME2.We already know their backgrounds and issues, so thats a lot of "easy" material you don't have to work with as a writer.

I'd really like the opinion of someone who never played ME1 on Tali and Garrus compared to the "true" ME2 characters.

Okay, I agree that all old squadmates returning as potential squadmates plus some new faces would perhaps be a little too much. Sometimes quality can be gained at the expense of quantity. Still I think, let's say four to eight, returning squadmates would be good for many reasons, like continuity, marketing and proven popularity for example.

As for the returning squadmates from ME1 they turned out to be a great sucess. Therefore I assume that the ME1 players liked the new content written for Garrus and Tali and the new players liked them even if they just had their backstory from ME1 very briefly told. Now if that sucess could be repeated but with a majority of the squadmates, I think that is something you should be willing to invest time and money in. Proven popularity is something very valuable for people in marketing and budget.

Edit: Also if some new ME3 player likes the old squadmates they may want to play more games with them and buy ME1 and ME2. That is another economical incentive.

Modifié par lovgreno, 15 février 2011 - 04:24 .

[AkiKishi]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Look at your Playstation.  Now back to my computer.  Now back to your Playstation.  Now back to my computer.  Sadly, your Playstation is not my computer.  But with ME: Genesis, we can sort of pretend it is.  Well, so long as Feros, Conrad, and all sorts of other bonuses don't mean anything to you.

Anyway, the point is that people who don't play all three games are going to miss content.  That's how games with carry-over saves work.  However, since they never played the other games, this missing content will mean little to them.  And honestly, half or more of the squad could be alive in the "default" save, anyway.  I'd be able to stomach having two squadmates less than the guy who spend $50 more than I did.

Oh yeah, and Pokémon's been pulling this sh*t for years: You can't catch 'em all with just one game.

I believe that the ease of the suicide mission, the presentation of an achievement for getting everyone out alive, and the incredibly contrived feeling of the deaths scenes all support my hypothesis that those characters were never supposed to die in the first place.  The game is actually setting you up to reload and try again, dangling a carrot in front of players so that they at least try to get one save with everyone out alive.  While some characters, such as Zaeed and Samara, signed on exclusively for the mission at hand, others feel a much deeper connection to Shepard, and those characters will undoubtedly wish to remain at his/her side come the final battle.  Your entire team walking out on you would be more contrived than the Lazarus Project and Garrus's last words (snipe one for me, would you?) combined.

There is trivial content and there is content. I'd like to think that squad members were not trivial content. If ME3 is a game and not an expansion pack then it has to offer as much to new players as anyone else.
Dumping a pre-selected squad that they had no say in is not the way to do it.

Let me ask you a very simple question. Do you care about anyone besides yourself or people who want the same thing ? Because If you don't I can just ignore you and save on some typing.


Obviusly it just called a suicide mission for laughs...

[AkiKishi]

lovgreno wrote...

Okay, I agree that all old squadmates returning as potential squadmates plus some new faces would perhaps be a little too much. Sometimes quality can be gained at the expense of quantity. Still I think, let's say four to eight, returning squadmates would be good for many reasons, like continuity, marketing and proven popularity for example.

As for the returning squadmates from ME1 they turned out to be a great sucess. Therefore I assume that the ME1 players liked the new content written for Garrus and Tali and the new players liked them even if they just had their backstory from ME1 very briefly told. Now if that sucess could be repeated but with a majority of the squadmates, I think that is something you should be willing to invest time and money in. Proven popularity is something very valuable for people in marketing and budget.

Quite so, however this is where the whole SM raises it ugly head again. You don't know who is alive and that means it's hard to balance a squad. What happens if the 4 you pick are 4 dead in someones game?

Tali and Garrus never really changed how the game worked. Having a pre-existing complete squad will remove a huge part of what normally makes up an RPG. As well as using NPCs to drive quests.

My gut feeling is that they will try a compromise like from ME to ME2.

[AlanC9]

[quote]BobSmith101 wrote...

Quite so, however this is where the whole SM raises it ugly head again. You don't know who is alive and that means it's hard to balance a squad. What happens if the 4 you pick are 4 dead in someones game?[/quote]

It's not so bad. With the two other ME1 characters returning, plus a couple of new ones, the worst case is no worse than can happen after Virmire if Wrex gets killed there.[/quote]

[Chewin]

Your probably right Phaedon, but it just sound ridiculous to yet again have a new crew. It gets very repititve...

[AkiKishi]

[quote]AlanC9 wrote...

[quote]BobSmith101 wrote...

Quite so, however this is where the whole SM raises it ugly head again. You don't know who is alive and that means it's hard to balance a squad. What happens if the 4 you pick are 4 dead in someones game?[/quote]

It's not so bad. With the two other ME1 characters returning, plus a couple of new ones, the worst case is no worse than can happen after Virmire if Wrex gets killed there.[/quote]
[/quote]

Who is coming back ? VS seems likely who is the other one?

[lovgreno]

BobSmith101 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Quite so, however this is where the whole SM raises it ugly head again. You don't know who is alive and that means it's hard to balance a squad. What happens if the 4 you pick are 4 dead in someones game?

It's not so bad. With the two other ME1 characters returning, plus a couple of new ones, the worst case is no worse than can happen after Virmire if Wrex gets killed there.

Who is coming back ? VS seems likely who is the other one?

He means Liara perhaps?
Anyway, if there are at least one new squadmamber of each base class (soldier ,biotic, engineer) from the start you can always make a fairly balanced squad even if you managed to kill everyone in ME2 and dont want to replay or take a default start.

Modifié par lovgreno, 15 février 2011 - 06:10 .

[SmokePants]

Chewin3 wrote...

Your probably right Phaedon, but it just sound ridiculous to yet again have a new crew. It gets very repititve...

So, you're saying that not having enough repetition gets repetitive?

[AkiKishi]

lovgreno wrote...
He means Liara perhaps?
Anyway, if there are at least one new squadmamber of each base class (soldier ,biotic, engineer) from the start you can always make a fairly balanced squad even if you managed to kill everyone in ME2 and dont want to replay or take a default start.

ShadowBroker seems like a 24/7 job.

[lovgreno]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Tali and Garrus never really changed how the game worked. Having a pre-existing complete squad will remove a huge part of what normally makes up an RPG. As well as using NPCs to drive quests.

I assume you would prefer to gradualy build your team as the story progresses? Well all old potential squadmembers doesn't have to be present from the start. You can meet them and requit them while doing the main or side missions. If they died in previous games they are simply not there. And they don't have to be a part of the main plot in any way but still become a popular part of the crew. For example it worked for Legion, they can be sold or scrapped and therefore they cannot have a important influence on the main plotline but that doesn't change the fact that many players enjoyed having them along.

[lovgreno]

BobSmith101 wrote...

lovgreno wrote...
He means Liara perhaps?
Anyway, if there are at least one new squadmamber of each base class (soldier ,biotic, engineer) from the start you can always make a fairly balanced squad even if you managed to kill everyone in ME2 and dont want to replay or take a default start.

ShadowBroker seems like a 24/7 job.

Yeah I got the feeling Liara will take TIMmys role as a questgiver. Still she have many fans that would like to buy a game where she is part of the crew.

[KenKenpachi]

Hmm reading this topic and having thought of it for some time I think one of the fallowing will happen,

1 ME wil be Shepard center, short of companion quests and the like I don't think the squadies will matter at all. Sort of like DA. You could run off or kill almost everyone and most likely still finish the game. But its a richer game if you keep them all.

2. For every dead player you'll have a replacement character, though I think that would be expensive unless you used the same VA's.

3. Maybe a playthrough with ALOT of dead will be very limited or not be allowed/ignores a few key deaths.

What really concerns me though is what will be done in the cases of all the characters WE want to see. I'm not holding my breath on Thane he should be dead, though you might pick up his son. And of course maybe some people will die reguardless in between games. While some such as Wrex may only make a camo apperance. But if we all get what we want such as All of ME:2's guys, all of ME:1's left overs, the DLC (K&Z who I REALLY hope return and a romance with Kasume) how would we even play with them all, I mean thats around 16 NPC's right there. So unless the game had Fork Missions where you had multiple teams, or allowed a larger team it seems a waste short of as a fan serive.

But not like you can throw them all under the bridge, in praticular dumping Garrus and Tali I would think would overload the forums with so much rage and spaming they would shut it down for a few weeks.

[AkiKishi]

lovgreno wrote...

I assume you would prefer to gradualy build your team as the story progresses? Well all old potential squadmembers doesn't have to be present from the start. You can meet them and requit them while doing the main or side missions. If they died in previous games they are simply not there. And they don't have to be a part of the main plot in any way but still become a popular part of the crew. For example it worked for Legion, they can be sold or scrapped and therefore they cannot have a important influence on the main plotline but that doesn't change the fact that many players enjoyed having them along.

Yes, tends to keep things fresh that way in both gameplay and story. As long as the time frame allows for it , thats not a bad idea at all.

it's also easier to justify some not returning if they have actually left the ship and some time has passed.

Just have to wait and see what the ME2-3 timegap is now.

[CroGamer002]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

From that 4 squadmates survived. Soldier - Grunt, Engineer - Mordin, Sentinel - Miranda, Sentinel/Vanguard - Jacob


Best for default Shepard in my opinion.

Grunt Inferno Ammo -anti armour
Mordin Incinerate - anti armour
Jacob Inferno Ammo - anti armour
Miranda Warp - anti armour

Miranda is your only anti barrier/shield there. Not really what you could call a balanced squad. Although I agree with your method it does not lead to a favourable conclusion.

Add to that the default class is soldier which also has inferno ammo.

Jacob is Sentinel in Mass Effect Galaxy so he may get some tech powers in ME3.

Also in ME3 you should get new squadmates for sake of balance, 4 max.
I mean check out this link and you'll see why we should get few new one.

[AkiKishi]

Mesina2 wrote...

Jacob is Sentinel in Mass Effect Galaxy so he may get some tech powers in ME3.

Also in ME3 you should get new squadmates for sake of balance, 4 max.
I mean check out this link and you'll see why we should get few new one.

What am I looking at ? Are those flags or an explanation of what a player did?

[CroGamer002]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Yes, tends to keep things fresh that way in both gameplay and story. As long as the time frame allows for it , thats not a bad idea at all.

it's also easier to justify some not returning if they have actually left the ship and some time has passed.

Just have to wait and see what the ME2-3 timegap is now.

I heard timegap will be 6 months after Suicide Mission.

[CroGamer002]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Jacob is Sentinel in Mass Effect Galaxy so he may get some tech powers in ME3.

Also in ME3 you should get new squadmates for sake of balance, 4 max.
I mean check out this link and you'll see why we should get few new one.

What am I looking at ? Are those flags or an explanation of what a player did?

Flags.

In this playthrough I will lose a lot of squadmate content but plot flags will be interesting to see.

[AdmiralCheez]

BobSmith101 wrote...

There is trivial content and there is content. I'd like to think that squad members were not trivial content. If ME3 is a game and not an expansion pack then it has to offer as much to new players as anyone else.
Dumping a pre-selected squad that they had no say in is not the way to do it.

Not bringing back the squad would trivialize them more than anything else.  In fact, it would trivialize the whole of ME2, which was devoted to team-gathering.  The fact that each and every squadmate can die doesn't make them expendable, but valuable, as they are a finite resource.  If they were easily replaceable, why bother protecting them?  Why bother forming a connection with them?  Wouldn't you rather have their deaths/survival mean something?  The text I bolded above implies that you would.

Fact is, jumping into a series late to the party will never offer as much to the player as following it from the beginning.  Any game/movie/book in a trilogy relies on its counterparts to lend it value and meaning.  Sure, you could just watch The Empire Strikes Back and be done with it, since it's a pretty good movie on its own, but it is so much more meaningful if you watch A New Hope and Return of the Jedi along with it.  The same goes for the Mass Effect series: you can play just one of the games and it's damn fine on its own (and many people are content to do this), but think about how much more you experience by playing both.  You know more, you care more, you do more.

Example: Horizon.  It was a sh*t scene, but it will serve my purposes well enough.  Now, you just play ME2 and you're like, "okay, who is this douche and why should I care?"  However, if you've played ME1, you're like "ZOMFG ASHLEY/KAIDAN HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO ME AFTER ALL WE'VE BEEN THROUGH?!"  I'm not advocating 12 Horizon encounters (because that's precisely why the scene is sh*t--it trivializes a decision I made in ME1 and is poorly written on top of that), but note how much stronger the reaction is from the hypothetical ME1 player.  Depending on your level of involvement, Kaishley goes from a random NPC that knew Shepard to a close friend that kicks you in the pants and walks away.

As for this gem...

Dumping a pre-selected squad that they had no say in is not the way to do it.

You do know that you couldn't skip Ashley, Liara, Kaidan, and Tali in the first game, right?  You couldn't skip Miranda, Garrus, Jack, Jacob, and Mordin in the second one, either.  Talk about arbitrarily dumping a squad on the player!

Let me ask you a very simple question. Do you care about anyone besides yourself or people who want the same thing ? Because If you don't I can just ignore you and save on some typing.

That was pretty douchey of you, bro. :c  Seriously.  Why would you even say this?

Obviusly it just called a suicide mission for laughs...

Considering the fact that one wrong decision can lead to death of a squadmate, and that failure is actually possible (unlike ME1 where you'd win the game no matter what), it really was a weighty endeavor.  Bioware simply underestimated our ability to pick up hints and had no idea what obsessive completionists we all were.  They know now to make those decisions tougher, the consequences more dire, and their hints more subtle.

You know what would make the SM really impressive?  If getting everyone out alive meant more than an achievement.

[Chewin]

SmokePants wrote...

Chewin3 wrote...

Your probably right Phaedon, but it just sound ridiculous to yet again have a new crew. It gets very repititve...

So, you're saying that not having enough repetition gets repetitive?

What? I'm implying that ME 3 should start with the same crew that you had in ME 2. Sure, some guys can leave, but getting for example 8 new squadmembers are just stupid. Phaedon refers to that you won't (rather can't) have ME 2 squaddies because of too many variables.

[AkiKishi]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Not bringing back the squad would trivialize them more than anything else.  In fact, it would trivialize the whole of ME2, which was devoted to team-gathering.  The fact that each and every squadmate can die doesn't make them expendable, but valuable, as they are a finite resource.  If they were easily replaceable, why bother protecting them?  Why bother forming a connection with them?  Wouldn't you rather have their deaths/survival mean something?  The text I bolded above implies that you would.

Fact is, jumping into a series late to the party will never offer as much to the player as following it from the beginning.  Any game/movie/book in a trilogy relies on its counterparts to lend it value and meaning.  Sure, you could just watch The Empire Strikes Back and be done with it, since it's a pretty good movie on its own, but it is so much more meaningful if you watch A New Hope and Return of the Jedi along with it.  The same goes for the Mass Effect series: you can play just one of the games and it's damn fine on its own (and many people are content to do this), but think about how much more you experience by playing both.  You know more, you care more, you do more.

Example: Horizon.  It was a sh*t scene, but it will serve my purposes well enough.  Now, you just play ME2 and you're like, "okay, who is this douche and why should I care?"  However, if you've played ME1, you're like "ZOMFG ASHLEY/KAIDAN HOW COULD YOU DO THIS TO ME AFTER ALL WE'VE BEEN THROUGH?!"  I'm not advocating 12 Horizon encounters (because that's precisely why the scene is sh*t--it trivializes a decision I made in ME1 and is poorly written on top of that), but note how much stronger the reaction is from the hypothetical ME1 player.  Depending on your level of involvement, Kaishley goes from a random NPC that knew Shepard to a close friend that kicks you in the pants and walks away.

As for this gem...


You do know that you couldn't skip Ashley, Liara, Kaidan, and Tali in the first game, right?  You couldn't skip Miranda, Garrus, Jack, Jacob, and Mordin in the second one, either.  Talk about arbitrarily dumping a squad on the player!

That was pretty douchey of you, bro. :c  Seriously.  Why would you even say this?

Considering the fact that one wrong decision can lead to death of a squadmate, and that failure is actually possible (unlike ME1 where you'd win the game no matter what), it really was a weighty endeavor.  Bioware simply underestimated our ability to pick up hints and had no idea what obsessive completionists we all were.  They know now to make those decisions tougher, the consequences more dire, and their hints more subtle.

You know what would make the SM really impressive?  If getting everyone out alive meant more than an achievement.

Team gathering for ME2 yes it was not implicit it was team gathering for ME3. The fact that it was a suicide mission should have made that fairly clear if nothing else. It also makes them a pain to transfer to the next game.

I watched ESB before New Hope. Never felt like I missed much. But I would have missed a conclusion had I skipped ROTJ. Just as each movie stands alone as well as part of a trilogy, the same applies to games.

If ME3 just wants to recycle the ME2 squad members they should just call it an expansion pack like they did with TOB. I like the ME2 squad , but as much as you want to see them return I want new personalities and associated quests more than  I want the same thing I just did one game ago.

In each case they were a fully fleshed out character. To do that in ME3 would require not only a rehash of the backgrounds and relationships, but also a whole set of new lines to keep them interesting.

You would be suprised how many people reply yes.

I'd agree if you only ever got one run at it. That would make it a very tense affair like playing Diablo Hardcore where one wrong move really does mean something. However, you can replay it so any tension, sense of accomplishment is totally lost.

The fact that people can actually tailor who lives and who dies should be enough proof of how pointless the SM is as a measure of success.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 15 février 2011 - 07:57 .

[CroGamer002]

^OK why are we keep arguing with dude who say we should carry over skills do to continuity but for characters is bad idea?