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A common misconception about squadmates in ME3


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#701
AdmiralCheez

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We Tigers wrote...

I'm not talking about people intentionally killing off squadmates; the "decisions" I refer to are mistakes like sending Thane in the vents, not having a loyal biotic for the seeker swarm, etc.  Remember that a tiny, tiny fraction of the market for Mass Effect posts on this board, and that most of them didn't play this game more than once.  Bioware is not going to hamstring significant content in the next game based on how a more casual gamer's ME2 experience went, and they're certainly not going to give this large group of gamers "half a deck" to use.  Do that, and the reviews will be a lot poorer--justly so--than the universal acclaim for the first two games.  Money talks.

The same statistics show that half of players didn't even finish the game, and only half imported.  I'm honestly curious as to what the completion rate is for people who imported, as I have a feeling it's higher.  I'd also like to add that the average gamer lost only 14% of their squad, or roughly two characters, per run (SOURCE).

Now, I collected a little data myself (DIG IT), and although the results are a touched skewed (damn the forums!), they seem to match BW's numbers fairly closely, though some of them are probably way, way off (like Grunt's recruitment rate).

Giving imported saves a bonus (like an extra squadmate) is not "hamstringing" casual gamers, since there will undoubtedly be at least a few new squadmates.  The story can and will progress whether or not [person] is alive or dead, just as it will progress well enough even though you saved/destroyed [plot device].  Furthermore, Bioware's official data shows that most players wouldn't be missing much, since the average endgame save has close to a full compliment.  The only people who would "suffer" would be people like Mesina2, who intentionally killed off nearly everyone.  Well, him and the occasional statistical oddity.

At any rate, only a very few people will be playing with half a deck.

Party members must be replaceable if you want them to return, be in your squad, and play a significant role.  I maintain that Bioware is not going to let some people start with 10 squadmates and others with 4.  They're not going to leave that much content inaccessible to people.  The OP states that you can leave Grunt in the tank, and that's true, but that's a decision you make in ME2.  Similarly, you can kill off most of your party in Dragon Age: Origins, but that's decision you make in that game, not in the next one you're buying.  It's bad business to charge $60 for a game that may be full of inaccessible content for any number of your potential players.  You're thinking about this from the perspective of a die-hard fan rather than the person who just likes video games and is one of Bioware's several million customers.

Take a look at what Bioware's done with Dragon Age 2.  Anders, who can die, is returning as a party member.  Bioware seems to be getting bolder with the import feature.

In ME2, the only things you could miss out on by killing people or making certain decisions in ME1 were 5-minute conversations and emails, and most of that minor content was duplicated anyway (Wrex/Wreav, Ash/Kaidan, Shiala/Feros Colonist).  If you want squad members back as squad members, get ready for them to have very limited roles outside of combat and no special moments to shine.

Actually, the Wrex one was a pretty big difference, and I'd say he waaaay outshone Wreav.  As for Kaishley, Bioware has stated that (s)he was left out of ME2 on purpose to guarantee a return in ME3 (which had better damn well happen, because Horizon was ******).

Sure, potentially dead people aren't going to win the game for you.  But having an extra friendly face/advisor/power spammer/negotiator on your side would be nice.  Like if you kept Legion, convincing other people that the geth aren't all bad becomes a lot easier, but it's still possible to kind-of-sort-of make nice between synthetics and organics without him.  Or if Mordin/Tali's alive, upgrades are cheaper or something.  I'm not expecting exclusive missions, here, just more perks/dialogue/loadout options.

Seriously, if Garrus becomes as relevant as Zaeed or Kasumi, I'll be happy.

An alternative would be making the default Shepard for ME3 have everyone survive, but that's still counter to one of the big hooks of the ME series; if you can't have a full game by importing your own Shepard, why would you even bother?

Yeah, no kidding.  Chances are the default will strike a balance, where you get most returning squadmates (save one or two), and only a couple of the non-returners are alive.  Minimal, but not to the point that people will rage about being cheated out of content for not playing the previous games.

#702
ADLegend21

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NICKjnp wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I happen to know that all ME3 squad mates will be bunnies.


peanut butter filled chocolate bunnies.

with edible bows around their necks.

#703
nevar00

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We Tigers wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

We Tigers wrote...

To the guy who keeps saying "CONSEQUENCES, DAMMIT": are you advocating making the game significantly harder for people who made certain decisions in previous games, or just letting them miss out on any associated content? Bioware will never do the former, and certainly not in the final game of their flagship series.

Letting squadmates get killed was not a decision, but failure to command.  People who killed off squadmates on purpose either a.) did so because they didn't want to see the character in ME3 or b.) were curious as to what sort of mess they'd get themselves into without them.  Well, there's also c.) dramatic effect, but that's tied somewhat to b.

In other words, people who intentioanlly kill off squadmates know full well that they are removing potentially important content from the game.  It's not cheating you out of content it's your own damn fault.  This is different from, say, the council or collector base because squadmate survival is independent of morality path.  People only die if you suck (on purpose), so it's only natural that you'd play the next game with only half a deck.

I'm not talking about people intentionally killing off squadmates; the "decisions" I refer to are mistakes like sending Thane in the vents, not having a loyal biotic for the seeker swarm, etc.  Remember that a tiny, tiny fraction of the market for Mass Effect posts on this board, and that most of them didn't play this game more than once.  Bioware is not going to hamstring significant content in the next game based on how a more casual gamer's ME2 experience went, and they're certainly not going to give this large group of gamers "half a deck" to use.  Do that, and the reviews will be a lot poorer--justly so--than the universal acclaim for the first two games.  Money talks.

I've skimmed the thread, but my general stance is that I disagree with its premise. Dead characters in an NPC role can be easily replaced, but dead characters in a party role cannot, lest Bioware seek to truly develop two parallel games or provide very narrow, replaceable roles for all variable party members. The choices and the drama of ME2 were aimed at making ME2 great, not at translating directly over to ME3.

Precisely: party members are not replaceable.  Keeping them on the squad in ME3 would greatly enhance their value since they are a limited resource.  That which is most precious to us is that which can be lost.  Naturally, the game would still have to be winnable for everyone, but it'd be a helluva lot trickier if Shepard had to do it on her own.  I don't know about you, but I welcome the challenge.

And frankly, a lot of people want the things that happened in ME2 to matter in ME3.  After all, what's the point of importing a save if your decisions don't carry weight?  And what would be more weighty than the potential loss of a valuable ally and close friend?

EDIT: Fixed a spelling goof.

Party members must be replaceable if you want them to return, be in your squad, and play a significant role.  I maintain that Bioware is not going to let some people start with 10 squadmates and others with 4.  They're not going to leave that much content inaccessible to people.  The OP states that you can leave Grunt in the tank, and that's true, but that's a decision you make in ME2.  Similarly, you can kill off most of your party in Dragon Age: Origins, but that's decision you make in that game, not in the next one you're buying.  It's bad business to charge $60 for a game that may be full of inaccessible content for any number of your potential players.  You're thinking about this from the perspective of a die-hard fan rather than the person who just likes video games and is one of Bioware's several million customers.

In ME2, the only things you could miss out on by killing people or making certain decisions in ME1 were 5-minute conversations and emails, and most of that minor content was duplicated anyway (Wrex/Wreav, Ash/Kaidan, Shiala/Feros Colonist).  If you want squad members back as squad members, get ready for them to have very limited roles outside of combat and no special moments to shine.

An alternative would be making the default Shepard for ME3 have everyone survive, but that's still counter to one of the big hooks of the ME series; if you can't have a full game by importing your own Shepard, why would you even bother?


That's what I've been saying!!!!!!  :o:O:O

If they want fans to have access to everybody in the game, then start the player with all the surviving squadmates that would return as squadmates.  If somebody importing their file is missing half their squad and wants to get the full experience... well they can't obviously, and that would be a CONSEQUENCE.  If they still really want to have a playthrough with everyone, then they would be able to start a new file in that game.

I really have nothing to say to Zulu's response to my post about Star Wars as I think my mind is beginning to fold, so I'll just stop here for now.

#704
lovgreno

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AdmiralCheez wrote...
Yeah, no kidding.  Chances are the default will strike a balance, where you get most returning squadmates (save one or two), and only a couple of the non-returners are alive.  Minimal, but not to the point that people will rage about being cheated out of content for not playing the previous games.

And there can be more than one default to choose from when starting a new ME3 game without importing any saves from ME2. Let's say you can choose things like more or less renegange and paragon, Wrex and Council being alive AND you can choose to have everyone surviving the final mission of ME2. This way no one, not new players who never played any ME games before, not those with dead people in the baggage from ME2 will lose any content if that is what they wish.

Personaly I probably would go with my imports anyway as I like my actions in previous games to have consequences but I see no reason to make new players and potential customers feel left out.

#705
Phaedon

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Chewin3 wrote...

What? I'm implying that ME 3 should start with the same crew that you had in ME 2. Sure, some guys can leave, but getting for example 8 new squadmembers are just stupid. Phaedon refers to that you won't (rather can't) have ME 2 squaddies because of too many variables.

No, I am saying the exact opposite.

Oh and AdmiralCheez, leave a few for me! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/happy.png[/smilie]

Hehe, kidding aside


We Tigers wrote...
I'm not talking about people intentionally killing off squadmates; the "decisions" I refer to are mistakes like sending Thane in the vents, not having a loyal biotic for the seeker swarm, etc.  Remember that a tiny, tiny fraction of the market for Mass Effect posts on this board, and that most of them didn't play this game more than once.  Bioware is not going to hamstring significant content in the next game based on how a more casual gamer's ME2 experience went, and they're certainly not going to give this large group of gamers "half a deck" to use.  Do that, and the reviews will be a lot poorer--justly so--than the universal acclaim for the first two games.  Money talks.

Kewl. Does this mean that:
  • a) There won't be a dialogue system
  • B) No consequences
  • c) No optional LIs
  • d) No optional recruiting of squaddies
  • e) Dialogue depending on gender
  • f) Leave people in tanks or AI cores
Because yeah, that's significant content too.


Party members must be replaceable if you want them to return, be in your squad, and play a significant role.  I maintain that Bioware is not going to let some people start with 10 squadmates and others with 4.  They're not going to leave that much content inaccessible to people.  The OP states that you can leave Grunt in the tank, and that's true, but that's a decision you make in ME2.  Similarly, you can kill off most of your party in Dragon Age: Origins, but that's decision you make in that game, not in the next one you're buying.  It's bad business to charge $60 for a game that may be full of inaccessible content for any number of your potential players.  You're thinking about this from the perspective of a die-hard fan rather than the person who just likes video games and is one of Bioware's several million customers.

Um, no they don't. And the rest is addressed above.

In ME2, the only things you could miss out on by killing people or making certain decisions in ME1 were 5-minute conversations and emails, and most of that minor content was duplicated anyway (Wrex/Wreav, Ash/Kaidan, Shiala/Feros Colonist).  If you want squad members back as squad members, get ready for them to have very limited roles outside of combat and no special moments to shine.

So, we have concluded the VS and Wrex will just sit on their ass during ME3, right, right? :wizard:
Not to mention that unlike ME2 decisions, ME1 had replace-able content.

An alternative would be making the default Shepard for ME3 have everyone survive, but that's still counter to one of the big hooks of the ME series; if you can't have a full game by importing your own Shepard, why would you even bother?

Why bother not make some flags so that the imported Shepard has some of these squadmates dead, huh?
In fact, why would Bioware, a company that designed the plot outline long before ME1 was released even do that?

Modifié par Phaedon, 16 février 2011 - 06:30 .


#706
Phaedon

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Siansonea II wrote...

I happen to know that all ME3 squad mates will be bunnies.

Siansonea II wrote...

So not surprised to see the juvenile contributions to this thread, but whatever.

Whoops

#707
VonStrangle

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I just thought that the ending sequence basically meant, "Hey, they're all coming with you," as they are all preparing weapons, and nodding at Shepard and whatnot. I couldn't imagine, really, as soon as that scene ended Shepard docking at Omega and saying, "Welp! Get off!" and leaving to find new crew.


That's just my opinion, no need to go spreadin' it around.

#708
jeweledleah

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wasn't it possible in ME1 to basically not recruit Wrex, Garrus and Tali? I always recruit everyone cause hey - the more the merrier, but I'm fairly sure that the only squad member you didn't have a choice BUT to recruit was Liara, everyone else was optional and I believe it was still possible to pass the game...just more ...challenging? considering that the only way to have available me3 import was to have at least 2 people survive and assuming that VS will be joining our team, the absolute worst possible case scenario means you had 2 DLC characters left with you. IF those characters do not appear in ME3, being optional content and all - you still have one team member, meaning you only need one more to have a team capable of ground missions - which means they only need to design one extra new member and if we assume that we're getting 2 new LI's (which is a possibility) - hey, here's your ground team. it would be damn tough to finish the game, but hey - you were the one who chose to get rid off most of your squad, now you get to play with more challenging content.



just something to muse about.

#709
Phaedon

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VonStrangle wrote...

I just thought that the ending sequence basically meant, "Hey, they're all coming with you," as they are all preparing weapons, and nodding at Shepard and whatnot. I couldn't imagine, really, as soon as that scene ended Shepard docking at Omega and saying, "Welp! Get off!" and leaving to find new crew.


That's just my opinion, no need to go spreadin' it around.

Nonsense, everyone was packing their things, since saving the galaxy is vastly overrated in comparison to their personal stuff. Also, what Joker handed you was his resignation which said that he 'Should go'. :P
 

jeweledleah wrote...

wasn't it possible in ME1 to basically not recruit Wrex, Garrus and Tali? I always recruit everyone cause hey - the more the merrier, but I'm fairly sure that the only squad member you didn't have a choice BUT to recruit was Liara, everyone else was optional and I believe it was still possible to pass the game...just more ...challenging? considering that the only way to have available me3 import was to have at least 2 people survive and assuming that VS will be joining our team, the absolute worst possible case scenario means you had 2 DLC characters left with you. IF those characters do not appear in ME3, being optional content and all - you still have one team member, meaning you only need one more to have a team capable of ground missions - which means they only need to design one extra new member and if we assume that we're getting 2 new LI's (which is a possibility) - hey, here's your ground team. it would be damn tough to finish the game, but hey - you were the one who chose to get rid off most of your squad, now you get to play with more challenging content.

just something to muse about.

It's also possible that ME2 DLC characters will be recruitable in ME3.

Modifié par Phaedon, 16 février 2011 - 07:51 .


#710
AkiKishi

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Mesina2 wrote...

^OK why are we keep arguing with dude who say we should carry over skills do to continuity but for characters is bad idea?


Your missing the point I said if they carry over the old team I want them as they are NOT level 1 again. If something happens to the old time that has no impact on continuity as long they go in a manner that fits. IF however they suddenly pop up having lost 29 levels or with their powers re-written (expanded is ok) that's a continuity issue since they no longer are who they were.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 16 février 2011 - 07:55 .


#711
AkiKishi

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

The same statistics show that half of players didn't even finish the game, and only half imported.  I'm honestly curious as to what the completion rate is for people who imported, as I have a feeling it's higher.  I'd also like to add that the average gamer lost only 14% of their squad, or roughly two characters, per run (SOURCE).


The half who did not import would likely be new players. If the % is that high then it's in Biowares interests to make the game as accesible for everyone not just some whiny forum goers that have a hissy because they think their favourite NPC is somehow special.

The core problem I have with your "consequences" speech is that if they never played ME2 then they are not being punished for their actions.

#712
Fiery Phoenix

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jeweledleah wrote...
*snip*

In ME1, you had to recruit everyone except Garrus OR Wrex.

#713
Phaedon

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BobSmith101 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

The same statistics show that half of players didn't even finish the game, and only half imported.  I'm honestly curious as to what the completion rate is for people who imported, as I have a feeling it's higher.  I'd also like to add that the average gamer lost only 14% of their squad, or roughly two characters, per run (SOURCE).


The half who did not import would likely be new players. If the % is that high then it's in Biowares interests to make the game as accesible for everyone not just some whiny forum goers that have a hissy because they think their favourite NPC is somehow special.

From the looks of it, the 'poll' is tied to a Shepard and not to a game copy.

The core problem I have with your "consequences" speech is that if they never played ME2 then they are not being punished for their actions.

The same thing happenned with ME2. What's your point?

#714
AkiKishi

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Phaedon wrote...

The same thing happenned with ME2. What's your point?


What exactly did you miss in ME2 because it was a clean game ? 

Some cameo's
A lot of email

You still go access to all the squad , you were not punished for anything that happened to them in ME that you had no control over. IE Wrex was non playable for everyone. As was the VS.
Let's just say for arguement that Tali and Garrus were killable in ME and never appeared in ME2 unless it was via import. Do you consider that fair ?

#715
CroGamer002

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jeweledleah wrote...

wasn't it possible in ME1 to basically not recruit Wrex, Garrus and Tali?.



You can't reject Tali in ME1.
If say you don't need her Udina will say she will go with you since she knows a lot about the Geth.

#716
CroGamer002

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BobSmith101 wrote...

The half who did not import would likely be new players. If the % is that high then it's in Biowares interests to make the game as accesible for everyone not just some whiny forum goers that have a hissy because they think their favourite NPC is somehow special.

The core problem I have with your "consequences" speech is that if they never played ME2 then they are not being punished for their actions.



Dude, Bioware was even surprised how many people choose to import ME1 Shepard.

Also you do know that ME2 sold twice as much then ME1 so 50% is actually almost 100% of people who played ME1?!

#717
AkiKishi

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Mesina2 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

The half who did not import would likely be new players. If the % is that high then it's in Biowares interests to make the game as accesible for everyone not just some whiny forum goers that have a hissy because they think their favourite NPC is somehow special.

The core problem I have with your "consequences" speech is that if they never played ME2 then they are not being punished for their actions.



Dude, Bioware was even surprised how many people choose to import ME1 Shepard.

Also you do know that ME2 sold twice as much then ME1 so 50% is actually almost 100% of people who played ME1?!


Dosn't that kind of just re-inforce the point I'm making about new players ?

#718
CroGamer002

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BobSmith101 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

The half who did not import would likely be new players. If the % is that high then it's in Biowares interests to make the game as accesible for everyone not just some whiny forum goers that have a hissy because they think their favourite NPC is somehow special.

The core problem I have with your "consequences" speech is that if they never played ME2 then they are not being punished for their actions.



Dude, Bioware was even surprised how many people choose to import ME1 Shepard.

Also you do know that ME2 sold twice as much then ME1 so 50% is actually almost 100% of people who played ME1?!


Dosn't that kind of just re-inforce the point I'm making about new players ?




I highly doubt ME3 will sell twice as much then ME2.
Also new players will probably enjoy ME3 that much so they may decide to buy ME2 and even ME1 to have full experience of Mass Effect trilogy.
Profit for Bioware.


Also sole reason why I have ME1 and ME2 at same time is import feature.
Otherwise I would probably ignore ME1 since I could have just Wiki ME1 plot and there would be references of ME1 in ME2.

Modifié par Mesina2, 16 février 2011 - 08:18 .


#719
Phaedon

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BobSmith101 wrote...
What exactly did you miss in ME2 because it was a clean game ? 

Some cameo's
A lot of email

You still go access to all the squad , you were not punished for anything that happened to them in ME that you had no control over. IE Wrex was non playable for everyone. As was the VS.
Let's just say for arguement that Tali and Garrus were killable in ME and never appeared in ME2 unless it was via import. Do you consider that fair ?

Fair or not, I still don't understand your argument. Killing Wrex by default was not fair either.

#720
AkiKishi

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Phaedon wrote...

Fair or not, I still don't understand your argument. Killing Wrex by default was not fair either.


Wrex was not a playable character in ME2 so whether it was Wrex or Wreave made no difference.
By removing playable characters you are impacting on gameplay and re-playability.

I still don't buy your keeping the old squad is "easy" like in one flag arguement either.

#721
Phaedon

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BobSmith101 wrote...
I still don't buy your keeping the old squad is "easy" like in one flag arguement either.

Oh yeah, explain, please.
You have literally tried using every single argument out there, from squaddie skillsets having to pass to ME3 to 'a default file save is not fair'.

Modifié par Phaedon, 16 février 2011 - 08:42 .


#722
jeweledleah

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Mesina2 wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

wasn't it possible in ME1 to basically not recruit Wrex, Garrus and Tali?.



You can't reject Tali in ME1.
If say you don't need her Udina will say she will go with you since she knows a lot about the Geth.


makes sence actualy since you need her in order to have 2 squad members on virmire, for the last stage.  still, wrex and Garrus were optional then.

and we might actualy get an opportunity to recruit DlC squad members...or we might not.  either way, if we're to go based on precedent - you only needed to recruit 2/3 rds of the avaialbe squad members in order to be able to sucessfuly pass the game, and you got 1/3rd of your possible original squad coming back in ME1, so its possible that same thing will happen in ME3.  which squad members though - now there's the question.  I predict the order will be somewhat similar to possible deaths in suicide mission, from most likely to least likely to come back as squad members and Miranda, Garrus, Tali and either Grunt or Jacob will be at the top of that list (why not Mordin?  too easy to kill in suicide mission.  why Garrus and Tali even though they are relatively easy to kill - because they are too popular for bioware to cut them out now, at least for those players that saved them).  if you have 4 or less squad members survive suicide mission?  those would be the people you'll have coming back in ME3 as squad members.

I'm fairly sure that VS is coming back as a squad member as well, mostly based on the statment that they weren't avaialbe in ME2 since they had an important role in ME3 and therefore couldn't be risked in suicide mission.  couple of new squad members and we got ourselves a team.  Even if you tried to create a worst possible import, youd still have yourself a team.

#723
CroGamer002

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BobSmith101 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Fair or not, I still don't understand your argument. Killing Wrex by default was not fair either.


Wrex was not a playable character in ME2 so whether it was Wrex or Wreave made no difference.
By removing playable characters you are impacting on gameplay and re-playability.

I still don't buy your keeping the old squad is "easy" like in one flag arguement either.


Image IPB


Dude, did you even talked to Wreave?
Please watch both Wrex and Wreave videos.

TELL ME NOW THEY ARE SAME!

#724
Stazro

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I've only skimmed the latest part of the conversation, so bear with me for repetitions.

No one needs to lose content, only because of the return of ME2-squaddies in ME3.

Those people who haven't played ME2 or don't import won't lose any content, because the default Shepard could easily have everyone alive through the suicide mission, at least those that are possible to return at all.

Those who import a save with dead squaddies will not lose content, because nothing stops them from playing again and saving the dead guys. Sure, many players never start a second playthrough. But the game is designed for multiple playthroughs, regardless. Are all classes except the soldier wasted, just because most people never play another class? Are, say, 40 % of conversation branches wasted, just because most people never chose them? It's simply not possible to experience all content of ME2 in one playthrough and ME3 won't be different. A missing squaddie who doesn't provide any driving part for the story, but only a bunch of conversations and a wider choice of abilities isn't that much more difference.

Modifié par Stazro, 16 février 2011 - 08:49 .


#725
AkiKishi

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Phaedon wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
I still don't buy your keeping the old squad is "easy" like in one flag arguement either.

Oh yeah, explain, please.
You have literally tried using every single argument out there, from squaddie skillsets having to pass to ME3 to 'a default file save is not fair'.


One flag right ? 

Tali - Alive/dead
Tali - Evidence handed in/not
Tali - Exiled/not

That's without even going into the LI stuff. One flag case dismissed.

I'm sure you would agree that Tali talking about returning to the fleet after being exiled would make very little sense. Which means that you need a flag for all NPCs that could be in similar true/false situations as well.

Mesina2 wrote...
TELL ME NOW THEY ARE SAME!


Why would I?
 I said it made "No difference" not that they were not different.

Now if Wrex were to become playable In ME3 I'd take issue with it in the same way I do with the ME2 squadmates.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 16 février 2011 - 08:53 .