927 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
TELL ME NOW THEY ARE SAME!

Why would I?
 I said it made "No difference" not that they were not different.

It does make difference but it wasn't main part of ME2 plot so it's left for ME3.

Modifié par Mesina2, 16 février 2011 - 08:53 .

[AkiKishi]

Mesina2 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
TELL ME NOW THEY ARE SAME!

Why would I?
 I said it made "No difference" not that they were not different.

It does make difference but it wasn't main part of ME2 plot so it's left for ME3.

I added this to the previous post before I read this.

"Now if Wrex were to become playable In ME3 I'd take issue with it in the same way I do with the ME2" squadmates.

Although it's covered by the "comic" the comic for some insane reason is a download.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 16 février 2011 - 08:57 .

[Wittand25]

Mesina2 wrote...
Dude, did you even talked to Wreave?
Please watch both Wrex and Wreave videos.

TELL ME NOW THEY ARE SAME!

There is no game-play difference whether you have Wrex or Wreave. The only difference is flavor text that works as reward for a player who imported a safegame with an alive Wrex. A fully developed squad member is not only much more expensive to make than Wrex/Wreave it also presents a gameplay difference with all associated problems.

And for all those who say just make the default an everybody survives game, sorry it does not work that way.
Such a safegame would mean everyone who imports not a perfect safe gets screwed out of significant content (bad idea to punish loyal customers); present newcomers with a full team, which is overly complicate to manage because they missed the learning curve of ME2 and makes it hard to connect with the NPCs because new players do not know them, but get all of them thrown at them at once.
Also it is frankly insane to plan the game that way because every dead squad member would leave a hole, that is irritating for players and even worse might freeze the game or lead to this: Tali plays Gollum or even break the game. A far more sensible way is to build the game with the minimum import in mind and then add cameos and other contend for players who import to reflect the decisions the player made in the previous games, like Bioware did when creating ME2.

[Phaedon]

BobSmith101 wrote...
One flag right ? 

Tali - Alive/dead
Tali - Evidence handed in/not
Tali - Exiled/not

I am convined that you didn't even bother skimming through previous pages.
You know, do you at least remember the time that we debated over the fact that there could be less than 30 flags for the squadmates? Don't question our intelligence.

All that has to do with the survival thing is 1 flag. For character development, you only need a few more.

Here's an example:
Garrus Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
LM Yes/No
Sidonis Alive Yes/No

Or if you want the most complicated possible:
Tali Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
LM Yes/No
Exiled Yes/No
Evidence Given Yes/No
Legion conflict taken side Yes/No
Tali's side taken Yes/No

So, stop acting as if it's something difficult.

[CroGamer002]

Wittand25 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Dude, did you even talked to Wreave?
Please watch both Wrex and Wreave videos.

TELL ME NOW THEY ARE SAME!

There is no game-play difference whether you have Wrex or Wreave. The only difference is flavor text that works as reward for a player who imported a safegame with an alive Wrex. A fully developed squad member is not only much more expensive to make than Wrex/Wreave it also presents a gameplay difference with all associated problems.

And for all those who say just make the default an everybody survives game, sorry it does not work that way.
Such a safegame would mean everyone who imports not a perfect safe gets screwed out of significant content (bad idea to punish loyal customers); present newcomers with a full team, which is overly complicate to manage because they missed the learning curve of ME2 and makes it hard to connect with the NPCs because new players do not know them, but get all of them thrown at them at once.
Also it is frankly insane to plan the game that way because every dead squad member would leave a hole, that is irritating for players and even worse might freeze the game or lead to this: Tali plays Gollum or even break the game. A far more sensible way is to build the game with the minimum import in mind and then add cameos and other contend for players who import to reflect the decisions the player made in the previous games, like Bioware did when creating ME2.

So you're telling me that because of new players those who played ME1 and ME2, who will be in majority who will buy ME3, must be punished by most of their choices and decisions being ignored?

How on Earth we are punishing new player with missing content if they never played previous games and won't care about it and how is hard to just make few references of ME2 and ME1 in ME3 for new players?

[AkiKishi]

Phaedon wrote...

All that has to do with the survival thing is 1 flag. For character development, you only need a few more.

Here's an example:
Garrus Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
LM Yes/No
Sidonis Alive Yes/No

Or if you want the most complicated possible:
Tali Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
LM Yes/No
Exiled Yes/No
Evidence Given Yes/No
Legion conflict taken side Yes/No
Tali's side taken Yes/No

So, stop acting as if it's something difficult.

Multiply that by 12. Granted it's not impossible, but its not as "easy" as you made it out to be in your original post is it ?

Your LI example is flawed by the way. It does not take into account previous possible love interests or LI conflicts.
LI is not just an on/off switch.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 16 février 2011 - 09:13 .

[CroGamer002]

^Legion is an LI?

[AkiKishi]

Mesina2 wrote...

^Legion is an LI?

LI - Love Interest. Obviously not. There are still 6 though and since that post was flawed and had LI as only on/off it really makes no great difference.

Mesina2 wrote...
How on Earth we are punishing new player with missing content if they never played previous games and won't care about it and how is hard to just make few references of ME2 and ME1 in ME3 for new players?

Lets say you buy a game. A racing game for example and because you never bought the previous one you only get half the cars to race with. Would you consider that fair ? 
Lets also suppose that there are rival drivers who you may or may not have clashed with in the previous game. If those scenes are missing, then you lose nothing because you never had encountered them anyway.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 16 février 2011 - 09:19 .

[CroGamer002]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^Legion is an LI?

LI - Love Interest.

I know what LI means, and Legion is not LI and how you state in that post he is to you.

Mesina2 wrote...
How on Earth we are punishing new player with missing content if they never played previous games and won't care about it and how is hard to just make few references of ME2 and ME1 in ME3 for new players?

Lets say you buy a game. A racing game for example and because you never bought the previous one you only get half the cars to race with. Would you consider that fair ? 
Lets also suppose that there are rival drivers who you may or may not have clashed with in the previous game. If those scenes are missing, then you lose nothing because you never had never encountered them anyway.

You're compering cars to characters?

Also if they saw someone having more content just because they played previous game do you know what they'll gonna do?
They'll either ignore it or buy previous game!
Bioware profits.

[Phaedon]

BobSmith101 wrote..Your LI example is flawed by the way. It does not take into account previous possible love interests or LI conflicts.
LI is not just an on/off switch.

Err what. What does the previous LI have to do with the ME2 squadmates. It's already a variable.

Multiply that by 12. Granted it's not impossible, but its not as "easy" as you made it out to be in your original post is it ?

Garrus Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Sidonis Alive Yes/No
Grunt Alive Yes/No
Jack Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Base destroyed Yes/No
Random Guy killed Yes/No
Jacob Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Father Abandoned Yes/No (unecessary)
Legion Alive Yes/No
Heretics brainwashed Yes/No
Miranda Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Talked to sister Yes/No
Mordin Alive Yes/No
Files kept Yes/No
Samara Alive Yes/No
LM Yes/No
Tali Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Exiled Yes/No
Evidence Given Yes/No
Legion conflict taken side Yes/No
Tali's side taken Yes/No
Thane Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
LM Done Yes/No

And before you say that I 'forgot' the LM flag for some of them, none is needed for some LMs, since another flag is just changed if the LM is done. For example, no difference is made if Sidonis is kept alive or if Garrus' LM didn't happen at all.

Yes, it is easy, and yeah, it is very possible.

There go the incredibly complex variables, all addressed in true/false flags just like that.

Modifié par Phaedon, 16 février 2011 - 09:26 .

[AkiKishi]

Phaedon wrote...

Yes, it is easy, and yeah, it is very possible.

You missed out a few. Legion sold, Grunt woken up etc.

And if LI is a simple on off like you continue to claim why can you get LI conflict ? Without a flag that would not be possible.

[Stazro]

Wittand25 wrote...

And for all those who say just make the default an everybody survives game, sorry it does not work that way.
Such a safegame would mean everyone who imports not a perfect safe gets screwed out of significant content (bad idea to punish loyal customers);

No, he won't because he can always go back and save those that died in the first run.

Wittand25 wrote...
present newcomers with a full team, which is overly complicate to manage because they missed the learning curve of ME2 and makes it hard to connect with the NPCs because new players do not know them, but get all of them thrown at them at once.

That can easily be remedied by picking them up one after the other. A returning squadmate doesn't need to be on the normandy from the start. They sometimes might have other things to do. After all, with the collectors' defeat the threat is less acute.

Wittand25 wrote...
Also it is frankly insane to plan the game that way because every dead squad member would leave a hole, that is irritating for players and even worse might freeze the game or lead to this: Tali plays Gollum or even break the game. A far more sensible way is to build the game with the minimum import in mind and then add cameos and other contend for players who import to reflect the decisions the player made in the previous games, like Bioware did when creating ME2.

It won't break the game if it's done right, especially since we can expect the story to move independent from who we have on the team. If developers wouldn't try what has a chance to fail there would be no video games.

Modifié par Stazro, 16 février 2011 - 09:31 .

[Phaedon]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Yes, it is easy, and yeah, it is very possible.

You missed out a few. Legion sold, Grunt woken up etc.

And if LI is a simple on off like you continue to claim why can you get LI conflict ? Without a flag that would not be possible.

Sure, all programming languanges have some sort of 'If' 

so

If Liara's LI flag is true and Jack's LI flag is true then etc.

No new variables are added.

Modifié par Phaedon, 16 février 2011 - 09:33 .

[Wittand25]

Mesina2 wrote...

So you're telling me that because of new players those who played ME1 and ME2, who will be in majority who will buy ME3, must be punished by most of their choices and decisions being ignored?

How on Earth we are punishing new player with missing content if they never played previous games and won't care about it and how is hard to just make few references of ME2 and ME1 in ME3 for new players?

No I am not ?
I never said decisions should be ignored. Quite the opposite in fact. If the ME2 remain squad-members their survival in ME2 becomes pointless because as long as they remain in Sheppard´s shadow they cannot achieve anything. The only thing ever achieved by a squad-member is Mordin developing a way to keep those paralyzing bugs away. Everything else notable that any squad-member did in in either ME1 or 2 was done either before they joined Sheppard (Tali and Liara getting the information they give the player in ME1, Miranda bringing Shepard back to life) or after they left (Wrex becoming clan leader, Garrus forming his own vigilante group, Tali doing research on both Geth and dark matter, Liara becoming an information broker and even rising to the level that she could challenge the shadow broker himself). And the only ways the characters can do anything of significance to help stopping the reapers for ME3 is again by leaving Shepard and the player.

And a new player getting less important content for the spending the same money does seem like punishment and adds little incentive to purchase and play the previous games after they got screwed with ME3. On the other hand giving an returning player a bonus without taking anything important away from new players is a reason to play through the three games several times to experience the different possible outcomes.

[AkiKishi]

Mesina2 wrote...
You're compering cars to characters?

Also if they saw someone having more content just because they played previous game do you know what they'll gonna do?
They'll either ignore it or buy previous game!
Bioware profits.

Why not? They are both gameplay mechanics. Having extras enhance gameplay and re-playability.

If they ignore the game how does that equal profit ?

[AkiKishi]

Phaedon wrote...
Sure, all programming languanges have some sort of 'If' 

so

If Liara's LI flag is true and Jack's LI flag is true then etc.

No new variables are added.

The conflict is another flag.
The progress is another flag which activates yet another flag.

If your relationship has progressed to level X then that activates Mordins flag to give you advice. So really not as simple as you made it out at all when you came up with this idea is it ?

[CroGamer002]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
You're compering cars to characters?

Also if they saw someone having more content just because they played previous game do you know what they'll gonna do?
They'll either ignore it or buy previous game!
Bioware profits.

Why not? They are both gameplay mechanics. Having extras enhance gameplay and re-playability.

If they ignore the game how does that equal profit ?

So, keeping skills is needed for plot while keeping squadmates is bad idea for game mechanic?
I'm speechless.

[Phaedon]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
Sure, all programming languanges have some sort of 'If' 

so

If Liara's LI flag is true and Jack's LI flag is true then etc.

No new variables are added.

The conflict is another flag.
The progress is another flag which activates yet another flag.

If your relationship has progressed to level X then that activates Mordins flag to give you advice. So really not as simple as you made it out at all when you came up with this idea is it ?

What. I just proved that the conflict is not another flag. If both of the values are true at the same time then the effects are different. The relationship value thing has no effect at ME2 at all. It was used in ME1 to point out the relationship stage, and that's how it works in ME2 too. I don't know why Bioware imported it -possibly an accident- since the game would be the same without it.

[AkiKishi]

Mesina2 wrote...
So, keeping skills is needed for plot while keeping squadmates is bad idea for game mechanic?
I'm speechless.

Game mechanic wise new or old makes zero difference. The point is you don't withhold any because of something the player had no control over.

[HTTP 404]

_000Darkstar wrote...

I agree 100% with you, and while that might be due to the fact that I'm drunk right now, I would probably still agree while sober. It doesn't make sense for any of them to die while on the SM except if you want them to be, and if that's the case then those that do kill off particular squaddies, then they have no reason to complain about it.

this is an old post but it is funny.

[AkiKishi]

Phaedon wrote...

What. I just proved that the conflict is not another flag. If both of the values are true at the same time then the effects are different. The relationship value thing has no effect at ME2 at all. It was used in ME1 to point out the relationship stage, and that's how it works in ME2 too. I don't know why Bioware imported it -possibly an accident- since the game would be the same without it.

But the fact that dialogue changes when you resolve the conflict would indicate there is a conflict flag. Otherwise it would default to the previous dialogue line. Because at that point both are not longer "true".

For example if you choose you don't go back to the previous line, you get a new one. That means something somewhere got flagged.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 16 février 2011 - 09:48 .

[Phaedon]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
So, keeping skills is needed for plot while keeping squadmates is bad idea for game mechanic?
I'm speechless.

Game mechanic wise new or old makes zero difference. The point is you don't withhold any because of something the player had no control over.

You still didn't answer his question. Keeping skills is need for plot? Keeping squadmates is a bad game mechanic?

[Phaedon]

BobSmith101 wrote...
But the fact that dialogue changes when you resolve the conflict would indicate there is a conflict flag. Otherwise it would default to the previous dialogue line. 

For example if you choose you don't go back to the previous line, you get a new one. That means something somewhere got flagged.

Then you have an erroneous definition of import flags. That would happen in-game, and not have anything to do with the import system other than checking which of the two imported values are set to true. By what you are saying, LotSB should be impossible.

[AkiKishi]

Phaedon wrote...
You still didn't answer his question. Keeping skills is need for plot? Keeping squadmates is a bad game mechanic?

I did, just maybe not in the way you would like.

If you transfer characters they should be the same. Unless there is a plot reason. Like Lazarus in ME2.

But as far as gameplay mechanics are concerned who the characters are don't make much difference only that they work to get you through the game. If ME3's default leaves people with 6 less playable characters, that's clearly not fair.

If everyone in ME3 starts with the same number of potential playable characters that is fair.

[AkiKishi]

Phaedon wrote...

Then you have an erroneous definition of import flags. That would happen in-game, and not have anything to do with the import system other than checking which of the two imported values are set to true. By what you are saying, LotSB should be impossible.

Could be the case. However if you have cheated on someone that should be a flag because it would effect how they see you. And would certainly not just be forgotten in ME3.

Seeing your long list and the number of omissions on it put me more off the idea anyway.