927 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaedon]

BobSmith101 wrote...
They may well do that. That's upto Bioware. Our choice is whether or not we buy the game.

No, that's the default. Just because you came up with that mechanism doesn't mean that there's a chance that Bioware will do it. And no, only you will refrain from buying the game.

In conclusion Bioware may take the approach that a clean slate is easier for both plot related and game mechanic reasons. We have already seen what your "one flag" means in practice and it's certainly not "simple".

lol, here we go again. Do explain.

[AkiKishi]

Phaedon wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
What you are basically saying is that plot is one thing and mechanics are another and it makes no difference whether they mesh as long as it's never acknowledged ?

Yeah, balance is the reason why Jack isn't defeating all of the enemies on the map by herself.

So you don't care about the disparity between cutscene and gameplay?

[Phaedon]

BobSmith101 wrote...
So you don't care about the disparity between cutscene and gameplay?

No, I don't. I just accept that the cutscene as the cannon one, and the gameplay as what I get to play.

Modifié par Phaedon, 16 février 2011 - 11:37 .

[AkiKishi]

Phaedon wrote...

lol, here we go again. Do explain.

Phaedon wrote...

Garrus Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Sidonis Alive Yes/No
Grunt Alive Yes/No
Jack Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Base destroyed Yes/No
Random Guy killed Yes/No
Jacob Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Father Abandoned Yes/No (unecessary)
Legion Alive Yes/No
Heretics brainwashed Yes/No
Miranda Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Talked to sister Yes/No
Mordin Alive Yes/No
Files kept Yes/No
Samara Alive Yes/No
LM Yes/No
Tali Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Exiled Yes/No
Evidence Given Yes/No
Legion conflict taken side Yes/No
Tali's side taken Yes/No
Thane Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
LM Done Yes/No

It's hardly a complete list either.

Phaedon wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
So you don't care about the disparity between cutscene and gameplay?

No, I don't. I just accept that the cutscene is the cannon one, and the gameplay is what I get to play.

Then why do your suggestions like being reset to level 1 seek to make the disparity even larger? 
If you are bothered by it, then surely you would want it the other way around like I do ?

Modifié par BobSmith101, 16 février 2011 - 11:36 .

[Phaedon]

BobSmith101 wrote...
It's hardly a complete list either.

You said it yourself, picking each dialogue option creates a new flag, so, somehow 30 import choices are not easy or impossible? What do I seem to be missing here?

Phaedon wrote...
Then why do your suggestions like being reset to level 1 seek to make the disparity even larger? 
If you are bothered by it, then surely you would want it the other way around like I do ?

But as I said, I am not bothered by it. I wouldn't be bothered by the mechanism you propose either, as long as it doesn't cause imbalance or doesn't limit me in any way.

Modifié par Phaedon, 16 février 2011 - 11:39 .

[AkiKishi]

Phaedon wrote...

You said it yourself, picking each dialogue option creates a new flag, so, somehow 30 import choices are not easy or impossible? What do I seem to be missing here?

But as I said, I am not bothered by it. I wouldn't be bothered by the mechanism you propose either, as long as it doesn't cause imbalance or doesn't limit me in any way.

Because you are not taking into account what the flags represent in order to have meaning. If there is no meaning in the flags for ME3 then that would just be another reason to start over with a fresh squad and explain the others away.

We will just have to disagree here.I was bothered by it especially in the case of Jack. If she were a product I'd sue for false advertising.

[Phaedon]

BobSmith101 wrote...
Because you are not taking into account what the flags represent in order to have meaning. If there is no meaning in the flags for ME3 then that would just be another reason to start over with a fresh squad and explain the others away.

What do the flags represent? Actions. If these flags are set to true, they trigger the rest of the code, also known as content.

[AkiKishi]

Phaedon wrote...

What do the flags represent? Actions. If these flags are set to true, they trigger the rest of the code, also known as content.

Lets take a flag. Tali being exiled for example. Now is that going to result in.

"I'm sad because I was exiled" then next minute she reverts to "as written"
Or does that mean a darker more moody Tali with the dialogue to match ?

If it's the first, then it's pretty much fluff. Everyone on the ME2 team encountered something personal,something life changing. The only reason I see for keeping them is reflecting that in ME3. If that's not to be the case, then better to start clean.

It's fine from a continuity point too because these sorts of things only tend to hit after you stop focusing on the mission.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 16 février 2011 - 11:55 .

[Phaedon]

BobSmith101 wrote...
"I'm sad because I was exiled" then next minute she reverts to "as written" 
Or does that mean a darker more moody Tali with the dialogue to match ?

That didn't happen in ME2 and there was no problem with import flags, so no.

If it's the first, then it's pretty much fluff. Everyone on the ME2 team encountered something personal,something life changing. The only reason I see for keeping them is reflecting that in ME3. If that's not to be the case, then better to start clean.

Certainly not. Your expectations are unrealistic. Garrus didn't change his hairstyle to Justin Bieber's and then started crying everytime you spoke to him because Sidonis died. 

The ME3 that you want is one with zero development and total focus on what you did in the previous game? 

It's fine from a continuity point too because these sorts of things only tend to hit after you stop focusing on the mission.

The mission that has to do with the survival of all organic life?

[AkiKishi]

Phaedon wrote...

That didn't happen in ME2 and there was no problem with import flags, so no.

Certainly not. Your expectations are unrealistic. Garrus didn't change his hairstyle to Justin Bieber's and then started crying everytime you spoke to him because Sidonis died. 

The ME3 that you want is one with zero development and total focus on what you did in the previous game? 

The mission that has to do with the survival of all organic life?

That's a flaw rather than something to be pleased with. Like how the VS flag turned out.

I've seen it done in other games. But it's certainly not a high expectation which is why I'm less concerened with what happens to the ME2 squadmates.

What do you mean by zero development ? 

I'm talking about the "downtime" between blowing up/capturing the base and the next mission. That's when the crew will start to reflect when they don't have an immediate goal. From the look of it you won't immediately jump from ME2 to ME3 which leaves plenty of time for reflection.

[Phaedon]

BobSmith101 wrote...
That's a flaw rather than something to be pleased with. Like how the VS flag turned out.

Mkay, emo Garrus confirmed for ME3.

I've seen it done in other games. But it's certainly not a high expectation which is why I'm less concerened with what happens to the ME2 squadmates.

What do you mean by zero development ? 

What you suggest is that the only reason for the characters to return is to discuss what they did in ME2. So basically, that's not really character development?

I'm talking about the "downtime" between blowing up/capturing the base and the next mission. That's when the crew will start to reflect when they don't have an immediate goal. From the look of it you won't immediately jump from ME2 to ME3 which leaves plenty of time for reflection.

Are you talking about ME2? Or ME3? 

Modifié par Phaedon, 16 février 2011 - 12:16 .

[AkiKishi]

Phaedon wrote...

Mkay, emo Garrus confirmed for ME3.

I've seen it done in other games. But it's certainly not a high expectation which is why I'm less concerened with what happens to the ME2 squadmates.

What do you mean by zero development ? 

What you suggest is that the only reason for the characters to return is to discuss what they did in ME2. So basically, that's not really character development?

Are you talking about ME2? Or ME3? 

What's wrong with Emo Garrus? As long as how his story played out in ME2 backs it up.

Not at all.What I am suggesting is the character is changed based on how things went during ME2. That's character growth.

I'm talking about the time between the two. You finish ME2 then.... ?

Modifié par BobSmith101, 16 février 2011 - 12:26 .

[Phaedon]

BobSmith101 wrote...
What's wrong with Emo Garrus? As long as how his story played out in ME2 backs it up. 

Not at all.What I am suggesting is the character is changed based on how things went during ME2. That's character growth.

I'm talking about the time between the two. You finish ME2 then.... ?

erm

If it's the first, then it's pretty much fluff. Everyone on the ME2 team encountered something personal,something life changing. The only reason I see for keeping them is reflecting that in ME3. If that's not to be the case, then better to start clean. 

[We Tigers]

Phaedon wrote...

We Tigers wrote...
I'm not talking about people intentionally killing off squadmates; the "decisions" I refer to are mistakes like sending Thane in the vents, not having a loyal biotic for the seeker swarm, etc.  Remember that a tiny, tiny fraction of the market for Mass Effect posts on this board, and that most of them didn't play this game more than once.  Bioware is not going to hamstring significant content in the next game based on how a more casual gamer's ME2 experience went, and they're certainly not going to give this large group of gamers "half a deck" to use.  Do that, and the reviews will be a lot poorer--justly so--than the universal acclaim for the first two games.  Money talks.

Kewl. Does this mean that:

• a) There won't be a dialogue system
• No consequences
• c) No optional LIs
• d) No optional recruiting of squaddies
• e) Dialogue depending on gender
• f) Leave people in tanks or AI cores

Because yeah, that's significant content too.

I've already said this, but: everything you've pointed out is contained within its own game.  Any content you choose not to engage in ME2--whether it's choosing certain dialogue, choosing one love interest over another, not recruiting certain squaddies, playing only as male or female Shepard, or leaving characters in their tanks--is content you CAN choose if you so decide.  No decisions made in ME1 prevent you from making these decisions regarding ME2 content within ME2.  You can play or replay ME2 however much you want, and regardless of what you did in ME1, you can see and do all of this.  You bought ME2, so you can do whatever you want with it. 

Do you see the distinction I'm drawing here?  If Jack, Tali, Grunt, Garrus, Miranda, and Samara all die in ME2, an ME3 player importing that scenario is going to be without not only the squad members for combat, but without any dialogue, storylines, missions, etc., to which they are linked.  It is not reasonable to expect players to miss out on major content in a product they paid $60 for because of things that happened in the previous game they paid $60 for.  I don't think Bioware has ever done that, and I don't see them starting now.

The only way I see this working is if the ME2 cast are reduced to characters with a handful of conversation threads each, no unique missions, and no role in the central story.  They would stand on the Normandy, be able to say about as much as Gianna Parasini does on Ilium, and then be selectable for combat missions.  I'd much rather have them in Wrex-like NPC roles, and I think it would be a lot easier to do, too. 

So, we have concluded the VS and Wrex will just sit on their ass during ME3, right, right? ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png

No, but I very much doubt Wrex will be a squad member for the same reasons I think it would be too difficult to make ME2 squaddies playable.  Kaidan/Ashley, maybe, but that's not the same thing.  No matter what happens in ME, one of them is still alive in ME3.  If their roles and story functions are interchangeable--just as they were in ME2--all ME3 players will have a similar experience regardless of who they let get nuked. 

Apologies for the long delay in responding--busy day at the office.

[Zulu_DFA]

We Tigers wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

We Tigers wrote...
I'm not talking about people intentionally killing off squadmates; the "decisions" I refer to are mistakes like sending Thane in the vents, not having a loyal biotic for the seeker swarm, etc.  Remember that a tiny, tiny fraction of the market for Mass Effect posts on this board, and that most of them didn't play this game more than once.  Bioware is not going to hamstring significant content in the next game based on how a more casual gamer's ME2 experience went, and they're certainly not going to give this large group of gamers "half a deck" to use.  Do that, and the reviews will be a lot poorer--justly so--than the universal acclaim for the first two games.  Money talks.

Kewl. Does this mean that:

• a) There won't be a dialogue system
• No consequences
• c) No optional LIs
• d) No optional recruiting of squaddies
• e) Dialogue depending on gender
• f) Leave people in tanks or AI cores

Because yeah, that's significant content too.

I've already said this, but: everything you've pointed out is contained within its own game.  Any content you choose not to engage in ME2--whether it's choosing certain dialogue, choosing one love interest over another, not recruiting certain squaddies, playing only as male or female Shepard, or leaving characters in their tanks--is content you CAN choose if you so decide.  No decisions made in ME1 prevent you from making these decisions regarding ME2 content within ME2.  You can play or replay ME2 however much you want, and regardless of what you did in ME1, you can see and do all of this.  You bought ME2, so you can do whatever you want with it. 

Do you see the distinction I'm drawing here?  If Jack, Tali, Grunt, Garrus, Miranda, and Samara all die in ME2, an ME3 player importing that scenario is going to be without not only the squad members for combat, but without any dialogue, storylines, missions, etc., to which they are linked.  It is not reasonable to expect players to miss out on major content in a product they paid $60 for because of things that happened in the previous game they paid $60 for.  I don't think Bioware has ever done that, and I don't see them starting now.

The only way I see this working is if the ME2 cast are reduced to characters with a handful of conversation threads each, no unique missions, and no role in the central story.  They would stand on the Normandy, be able to say about as much as Gianna Parasini does on Ilium, and then be selectable for combat missions.  I'd much rather have them in Wrex-like NPC roles, and I think it would be a lot easier to do, too. 

So, we have concluded the VS and Wrex will just sit on their ass during ME3, right, right? 

No, but I very much doubt Wrex will be a squad member for the same reasons I think it would be too difficult to make ME2 squaddies playable.  Kaidan/Ashley, maybe, but that's not the same thing.  No matter what happens in ME, one of them is still alive in ME3.  If their roles and story functions are interchangeable--just as they were in ME2--all ME3 players will have a similar experience regardless of who they let get nuked. 

Apologies for the long delay in responding--busy day at the office.

We Tigers, this has been explained to the kind of people Phaedon belongs to, like, a hundred times already.

They can't see the difference between Kaidashley and [insert ME2 squadmate name here]. They can't see difference between missing optional content, and missing content because you played another game 2 years ago.

Don't waste your time, really!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 février 2011 - 12:00 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

We Tigers, this has been explained to the kind of people Phaedon belongs to, like, a hundred times already.

They can't see the difference between Kaidashley and [insert ME2 squadmate name here]. They can't see difference between missing optional content, and missing content because you played another game 2 years ago.

Don't waste your time, really!

This kind of language sounds familiar...

*beings to spin conspiracy theories about the identities of certain forum members*

[lovgreno]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
We Tigers, this has been explained to the kind of people Phaedon belongs to, like, a hundred times already.

They can't see the difference between Kaidashley and [insert ME2 squadmate name here]. They can't see difference between missing optional content, and missing content because you played another game 2 years ago.

Don't waste your time, really!

There doesn't have to be missing content of any kind for anyone if you have several choices of default starts. Or some other kind of clever sollution, I'm sure BioWare can think of something good if they realy want to. What do I know? I'm not one of the writers or programmers. What I do know is that they must try to live up to the high expectations they have set for themselves if they want to survive as a company.

But perhaps I am not smart enough to understand your arguments and opinions and therefore it's not worth your time to try to explain things in a way I can understand. I can live with that.

[AkiKishi]

Phaedon wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
What's wrong with Emo Garrus? As long as how his story played out in ME2 backs it up. 

Not at all.What I am suggesting is the character is changed based on how things went during ME2. That's character growth.

I'm talking about the time between the two. You finish ME2 then.... ?

erm

If it's the first, then it's pretty much fluff. Everyone on the ME2 team encountered something personal,something life changing. The only reason I see for keeping them is reflecting that in ME3. If that's not to be the case, then better to start clean. 

Congratluations you can take quotes out of context. Do you want a cookie ? 

Here is the whole thing.

Lets take a flag. Tali being exiled for example. Now is that going to result in.

"I'm sad because I was exiled" then next minute she reverts to "as written"
Or does that mean a darker more moody Tali with the dialogue to match ?

If it's the first, then it's pretty much fluff. Everyone on the ME2 team encountered something personal,something life changing. The only reason I see for keeping them is reflecting that in ME3. If that's not to be the case, then better to start clean.

[CroGamer002]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Modifié par Mesina2, 17 février 2011 - 08:57 .

[AkiKishi]

lovgreno wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
We Tigers, this has been explained to the kind of people Phaedon belongs to, like, a hundred times already.

They can't see the difference between Kaidashley and [insert ME2 squadmate name here]. They can't see difference between missing optional content, and missing content because you played another game 2 years ago.

Don't waste your time, really!

There doesn't have to be missing content of any kind for anyone if you have several choices of default starts. Or some other kind of clever sollution, I'm sure BioWare can think of something good if they realy want to. What do I know? I'm not one of the writers or programmers. What I do know is that they must try to live up to the high expectations they have set for themselves if they want to survive as a company.

But perhaps I am not smart enough to understand your arguments and opinions and therefore it's not worth your time to try to explain things in a way I can understand. I can live with that.

I'd say there are more reasons for not including them than including them. Including them as anything more than "fanservice" requires something that Bioware has not demonstrated as being capable of in the import flags from ME1 to ME2. If you look at the two ME1 imports, they took the easy option and expanded the interaction with LI material. That's not something they can do again since half the squad is already LI material.

I did post a thread about including a comic in ME3, that way you would at least have input over how you wanted ME3 to play out without having to have played the previous games. It's not perfect, but it would put things in context as well as explain why you had the squad you did.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 17 février 2011 - 09:12 .

[CroGamer002]

BobSmith101 wrote...


Congratluations you can take quotes out of context. Do you want a cookie ? 

Here is the whole thing.

Lets take a flag. Tali being exiled for example. Now is that going to result in.

"I'm sad because I was exiled" then next minute she reverts to "as written"
Or does that mean a darker more moody Tali with the dialogue to match ?

If it's the first, then it's pretty much fluff. Everyone on the ME2 team encountered something personal,something life changing. The only reason I see for keeping them is reflecting that in ME3. If that's not to be the case, then better to start clean.

Did you even got Tali exiled on your playthrough or did you just pick up video on Youtube?


Dude, after you done both Legion and her loyalty while she got exiled only thing that is changed that Legion is confused why is she still protective to flotilla even though exiled.
Personality is not changed.



Also congrats for blocking me, now I know with what type I'm dealing with.

[SmokePants]

I think a common misconception is that nerds are actually smart.

You guys realize that in the unlikely event that anyone comes back, they will be "reset", don't you? They will not pick up where you left off with them. They will behave the same way, regardless of whether you gained or lost their loyalty. And of course, romances have no place in the beginning of these games. They have to be worked toward or else they serve no purpose. So, yeah, don't expect to be able to stick your tongue down anyone's throat from Go.

By asking for these characters to return, you are asking to be pissed off. They will not be as you remember them and they will not behave as you think they should. See: Oghren in Awakening. See: Kashlen on Horizon. See: Liara in her office.

Modifié par SmokePants, 17 février 2011 - 01:46 .

[Flamewielder]

With Wrex and the VS, Bioware had to include a relatively small amount of "locked" content that was dependent on your ME1 decisions; and even that could be overriden in the intro. Still, the amount of this optional content was reasonably small, all things considered.



A more important consideration is the desire expressed by the community to have more squaddie-squaddie interactions/dialogue. If this is important to you, you cannot expect ME2 squaddies to come back as "full" squaddies (i.e. squaddies that will follow Shep throughout ME3) because of mathematically exploding dialogue trees.



You can, of course, bring them all back as optional full squaddies but what you'll end up with is squaddies that never specifically ackowledge another squaddie (except with generic lines about refusing suicidal assignements). Do we want to "dull down" our favorite ME2 squaddies with generic dialogue? I don't think so.



A good compromise is to make each ME2 squaddie available as an optional singe-mission squaddie in an appropriate mission. This reduces the amount of optional content to a minimum. The ME2 squaddie can have several squaddie-squaddie interaction dialogue lines with all the new ME3 squaddies (and probably the VS). You do not need to record interaction dialogue for 11 potentially dead squaddies, only 6-8 new ME3 ones.



To illustrate: let's say Shep needs to go to Thessia to convince key matriarchs to lend additional support in saving Earth. Shep can use 2 ME3 squaddies to run the mission, or perhaps call on Samara for help. If he does, Samara becomes a single-mission squaddie (like Liara in LotSB) and Shepard only picks one ME3 squaddie for complete the team. Samara can have unique dialogue with some/all of the ME3 squaddies, and will never annoy you with endless meditations...



Similar scenarios can be arranged for all ME2 squaddies, who can then get a satisfying 1-3 hours if intense, emotionally engaging gameplay instead of a bland, lifeless ME2 squaddie taking up the space of a potentially awsome new ME3 full squaddie.

[samurai crusade]

I'd rather develop the characters we already know and love than get a whole nother set of people that at the end of the game... I'm going to wish there is a 4th game so I can get to know them!  I'm more into conversations on-normandy than I am inter-mission squad banter.

That said... if they give us a set of missions with former members similar to LotSB, rather than full on Squadmate, then that would be ok... there just needs to be solid diologue.

Modifié par samurai crusade, 17 février 2011 - 02:23 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Flamewielder wrote...

A more important consideration is the desire expressed by the community to have more squaddie-squaddie interactions/dialogue. If this is important to you, you cannot expect ME2 squaddies to come back as "full" squaddies (i.e. squaddies that will follow Shep throughout ME3) because of mathematically exploding dialogue trees.

Ah... That good old thread... with the poll...

[waxing nostalgic]