Aller au contenu

Photo

A common misconception about squadmates in ME3


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
927 réponses à ce sujet

#851
nevar00

nevar00
  • Members
  • 1 395 messages

Femlob wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

UGH... if only they didn't throw in a Suicide Mission halfway through the series...


Look at it this way: at least they're being innovative. I don't think any game trilogy has ever given you the opportunity to kill off your entire squad halfway through.


That is true, but unless they're willing to put in all the effort the characters we've grown attached to throughout the games are not going to be as prominent as they should (and would have) been if they had not all been killable.  If they did put in all that extra effort and end up pulling it off with you keeping most of your surviving squad... that would be an incredible feat. 

#852
Abispa

Abispa
  • Members
  • 3 465 messages
Look at it this way, the only two guaranteed surviving characters are Liara an the Virmire survivor, so at worst you'll have three people for your combat squad.

#853
AdmiralCheez

AdmiralCheez
  • Members
  • 12 990 messages
But Liara's the Broker and the VS doesn't like you any more.

#854
jeweledleah

jeweledleah
  • Members
  • 4 043 messages

AdmiralCheez wrote...

But Liara's the Broker and the VS doesn't like you any more.


only for now....I hope :/

#855
AdmiralCheez

AdmiralCheez
  • Members
  • 12 990 messages
Yeah, at least Kaidan/Ashley needs to make a comeback. Because, God damn, Shepard's gonna be lonely without the bro squad.



Hopefully Bioware's not that stupid. Pretty much everyone I've talked to outside the forums about this issue has insisted it would ruin ME3 forever. And by everyone, I mean six or seven people that go to the same university as I do.



Wear an N7 hoodie to class: you'll make all sorts of nerdy friends.

#856
Abispa

Abispa
  • Members
  • 3 465 messages
Amazing! I heard that Shepard was going to send a N7 hoodie to the VS as a make-up present. And Liara can still be the new SB as well as a squad mate now that the new iPad is out.

#857
AdmiralCheez

AdmiralCheez
  • Members
  • 12 990 messages
No, Abispa. iPads are the mark of the beast. Liara is dangerously close to the dark side as it is.

#858
CroGamer002

CroGamer002
  • Members
  • 20 672 messages

Wittand25 wrote...

I have explained that in an other post a few hour ago, a post you quoted yourself. Are you a troll ? Really try not to raise stupid arguments in such a blatantly obvious way. It does drain the fun out of the discussion.



Riiight...

Just declare me stupid and troll for disagreeing with you and yourself smart guy around here and always right..
I'm not stopping you.


Wittand25 wrote...

So you skipped her recruitment mission,
you know the one where she is researching dark matter and the dieing
sun. And subsequently her loyalty mission which deals with both the
conflict and her plans to return to the Flotilla should the Flotilla
need her.


That still doesn't make her a scientist.
She is only tech expert and lead that team. They can always send random Quarian to research Dark Matter.
Also again for the conflict, she can still do it as Shepard's squadmate.

Because the writers want him to? Really that is the
only reason anything happens in the ME universe and if they want it it
will happen and possibly even explained.


True, but you're talking like Bioware full of lazy people who'll sell you their product no matter the quality.

#859
CroGamer002

CroGamer002
  • Members
  • 20 672 messages

Femlob wrote...


Edit: Looking over the Suicide Mission chart again, I can't help but wonder why Jacob was given leadership material status. Unlike Miranda and Garrus, there's nothing in the game that indicates he'd be fit to lead...


nevar00 wrote...

Edit - I always wondered why Jacob was given leadership status as well.  Wasn't he head of security at that
Cerberus facility though?  So I guess it makes a little sense (even though everyone there ended up dead).  Maybe they just felt like he was a pretty useless guy and needed to add in some way he could be useful.



Read Jacob's description.

He is experienced in leading squads during his days in Alliance.

Modifié par Mesina2, 18 février 2011 - 07:48 .


#860
Femlob

Femlob
  • Members
  • 1 643 messages

Mesina2 wrote...

Read Jacob's description.

He is experienced in leading squads during his days in Alliance.


The Shadow Broker terminal, you mean?

#861
AkiKishi

AkiKishi
  • Members
  • 10 898 messages

nevar00 wrote...
That is true, but unless they're willing to put in all the effort the characters we've grown attached to throughout the games are not going to be as prominent as they should (and would have) been if they had not all been killable.  If they did put in all that extra effort and end up pulling it off with you keeping most of your surviving squad... that would be an incredible feat. 


Ask any writer they will tell you it's easier to make up a character than try to make someone elses convincing. Especially so in a game where you have to also write within any variables that have previously cropped up.
We know Bioware can write characters, DA had great characters, ME2 had great characters, if it did not, then people would be metophorically falling on  thier swords to get them back. Even going back in History KOTOR and Baldurs Gate had great characters. We know they can write great characters.

That being the case, there is no reason that I can see to worry that any new ME3 characters would be any less great.

One of my key reasons for wanting to move on to something new , rather than keeping the old.


#862
CroGamer002

CroGamer002
  • Members
  • 20 672 messages

Femlob wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Read Jacob's description.

He is experienced in leading squads during his days in Alliance.


The Shadow Broker terminal, you mean?


No, when you have to pick someone for tasks in Suicide Mission, everyone has short description.

#863
CroGamer002

CroGamer002
  • Members
  • 20 672 messages

BobSmith101 wrote...

nevar00 wrote...
That is true, but unless they're willing to put in all the effort the characters we've grown attached to throughout the games are not going to be as prominent as they should (and would have) been if they had not all been killable.  If they did put in all that extra effort and end up pulling it off with you keeping most of your surviving squad... that would be an incredible feat. 


Ask any writer they will tell you it's easier to make up a character than try to make someone elses convincing. Especially so in a game where you have to also write within any variables that have previously cropped up.
We know Bioware can write characters, DA had great characters, ME2 had great characters, if it did not, then people would be metophorically falling on  thier swords to get them back. Even going back in History KOTOR and Baldurs Gate had great characters. We know they can write great characters.

That being the case, there is no reason that I can see to worry that any new ME3 characters would be any less great.

One of my key reasons for wanting to move on to something new , rather than keeping the old.


Comes from the guy who thinks skills are important for plot while keeping old squadmates is bad for game mechanic.

#864
AkiKishi

AkiKishi
  • Members
  • 10 898 messages

Mesina2 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

nevar00 wrote...
That is true, but unless they're willing to put in all the effort the characters we've grown attached to throughout the games are not going to be as prominent as they should (and would have) been if they had not all been killable.  If they did put in all that extra effort and end up pulling it off with you keeping most of your surviving squad... that would be an incredible feat. 


Ask any writer they will tell you it's easier to make up a character than try to make someone elses convincing. Especially so in a game where you have to also write within any variables that have previously cropped up.
We know Bioware can write characters, DA had great characters, ME2 had great characters, if it did not, then people would be metophorically falling on  thier swords to get them back. Even going back in History KOTOR and Baldurs Gate had great characters. We know they can write great characters.

That being the case, there is no reason that I can see to worry that any new ME3 characters would be any less great.

One of my key reasons for wanting to move on to something new , rather than keeping the old.


Comes from the guy who thinks skills are important for plot while keeping old squadmates is bad for game mechanic.


You could at least get it right. Skills are important for continuity and keeping squad members who can only stay because they have been reset to level 1 is a bad game mechanic.

Still as others have pointed out you seem read only what you want to see and not what they actually posted.

#865
AdmiralCheez

AdmiralCheez
  • Members
  • 12 990 messages
@BobSmith101: The fact remains that you are more attached to your f*cking Assault Armor than anyone on the Normandy. That's pathetic.

#866
AkiKishi

AkiKishi
  • Members
  • 10 898 messages

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@BobSmith101: The fact remains that you are more attached to your f*cking Assault Armor than anyone on the Normandy. That's pathetic.


Never played a Sentinel...

Wrong anyway. You could say that I'm so attached to them I don't want to see the butchered like some characters in ME2 were.

#867
AdmiralCheez

AdmiralCheez
  • Members
  • 12 990 messages
So, who was more butchered, Kaishley or Tali?



Or did you just stop liking Garrus because he didn't agree with your every word anymore?

#868
AkiKishi

AkiKishi
  • Members
  • 10 898 messages

AdmiralCheez wrote...

So, who was more butchered, Kaishley or Tali?

Or did you just stop liking Garrus because he didn't agree with your every word anymore?


Well K/A was pretty horrific. 

With both Tali and Garrus they took the easy option making them LI's. That's not going to apply in ME3.
The nature of ME2 also made them pretty easy to intergrate because everyone got a mission. Even though Garrus' mission was pretty much a rehash of the ME1 mission.

Do I think Bioware could do that *12 NO. Do I think Bioware is capable of writing 10 new characters as good as the ones in ME2 ? Totally.

#869
AdmiralCheez

AdmiralCheez
  • Members
  • 12 990 messages
Ah, so 12 more Kaishleys is preferable to actual character development.



Now, Garrus and Tali's development has nothing to do with whether or not they're LIs. You see, in ME1, Tali was a walking codex chapter on the quarians, while Garrus just asked you your opinion on things and automatically agreed with you (with a couple goofy stories thrown in for the lulz). In ME2, suddenly Tali has matured and come into her own, and her feelings and opinions are far more clear. Garrus became independent, with a set of morals all his own and a much clearer and harsher perception of how the world works. Whether you liked them better or not in their new forms has little to do with the fact that they evolved, and continued to evolve throughout ME2.



They don't need their own loyalty missions to be fit into the plot. All they have to do is act and react to what's happening around them.



And honestly, we don't need to add a bajillion new guys to each installment. This isn't Pokémon, for chrissakes.

#870
LordShrike

LordShrike
  • Members
  • 327 messages
Augh! Pokemon ref! Kill it with fire!!!

Otherwise Admiral is making valid points. Lotsa of them. Have a cookie for being right. Yes, Why catch more them when you already have a good team.

(And hopefully the genofixed poison in it will kill the pokemon in your brain... Think i'll have one too.)

#871
AkiKishi

AkiKishi
  • Members
  • 10 898 messages

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Ah, so 12 more Kaishleys is preferable to actual character development.

Now, Garrus and Tali's development has nothing to do with whether or not they're LIs. You see, in ME1, Tali was a walking codex chapter on the quarians, while Garrus just asked you your opinion on things and automatically agreed with you (with a couple goofy stories thrown in for the lulz). In ME2, suddenly Tali has matured and come into her own, and her feelings and opinions are far more clear. Garrus became independent, with a set of morals all his own and a much clearer and harsher perception of how the world works. Whether you liked them better or not in their new forms has little to do with the fact that they evolved, and continued to evolve throughout ME2.

They don't need their own loyalty missions to be fit into the plot. All they have to do is act and react to what's happening around them.

And honestly, we don't need to add a bajillion new guys to each installment. This isn't Pokémon, for chrissakes.


Why would it be ? We already know Bioware can do great characters from scratch. If that were not the case, people would only care about including the ME duo. Besides them the others were built for ME2.

Did they really ? Because outside of the loyalty missions I don't recall a whole lot of imput from either in that direction. I found Talis reaction to Legion particularly disapointing.

It's hardly a bajillion and since 10 were added in ME2 I really don't see how you can say they were not needed when you are fighting to keep them ?Clearly Bioware did something right with the character design.

#872
lovgreno

lovgreno
  • Members
  • 3 523 messages

BobSmith101 wrote...Do I think Bioware is capable of writing 10 new characters as good as the ones in ME2 ? Totally.

I am certain that they can. But why bother when you already have some proven popular characters? Sounds like more work to write someone from scratch and it may become unpopular anyway. Better to improve a winning concept like they did with Garrus and Tali. They do have even more fans after ME2 you know.

#873
nevar00

nevar00
  • Members
  • 1 395 messages

lovgreno wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...Do I think Bioware is capable of writing 10 new characters as good as the ones in ME2 ? Totally.

I am certain that they can. But why bother when you already have some proven popular characters? Sounds like more work to write someone from scratch and it may become unpopular anyway. Better to improve a winning concept like they did with Garrus and Tali. They do have even more fans after ME2 you know.


Not to mention you'd have to go into all their background, family life, etc... I don't care how bad your dad was, you should be commenting on how the Reapers just destroyed another planet, damnit!

It would be easier to have more plot-centered discussions with already established teammates.

#874
AdmiralCheez

AdmiralCheez
  • Members
  • 12 990 messages

BobSmith101 wrote...

Why would it be ? We already know Bioware can do great characters from scratch. If that were not the case, people would only care about including the ME duo. Besides them the others were built for ME2.

Yes, they were great, but that's just the thing--it is incedibly lame to pull the same stunt twice.  I am pretty sure you don't want to do ME2 over again.

Did they really ? Because outside of the loyalty missions I don't recall a whole lot of imput from either in that direction. I found Talis reaction to Legion particularly disapointing.

Blame the story structure.  Bioware got into too many schenanigans introducing ten new characters.  Add ten more, and they all suffer.

It's hardly a bajillion and since 10 were added in ME2 I really don't see how you can say they were not needed when you are fighting to keep them ?Clearly Bioware did something right with the character design.

PRECISELY.  Bioware made a mighty fine batch, and ditching them would be a waste.  I don't care if an all-new team eclipses the old in awesomeness; it would still be taking the easy way out, kicking continuity in the balls, and pissing in their own fanbase.

I am NOT against new characters; I simply believe it is best to not introduce so damn many again.  While I love the ME2 cast, we blew so much time on introductions that the core plot was somewhat neglected.  Bring back a few of the old guys, and we can skip that many recruitment missions.  Honestly, what they should have done was split the cast in half, saving a few of these guys for ME3.  Otherwise, the cast gets too big.

What I'd honestly like to see is a good mix of returns, Wrex-style cameos, and temporary squadmates.  One or two very short encounters would be fine as well, since there ARE twelve of them, so long as they are well done.  I was okay with Wrex not rejoining the squad because the reunion was great, plus I already had Garrus and Tali.  I was pissed about the VS and Liara, but Shadow Broker fixed up our blue friend.  The VS?  Not so much.  Royal suckage.  Doing something like that again would be suicide.

Now, you were worried earlier about balance--what if the only survivors in your save are the ones that happen to cameo, or their powers overlap?  A small amount of new guys could easily cover your bases--you could do it with two, even, if they had a power setup similar to Miranda/Jacob or Ash/Kaidan.  However, anything more than six newcomers would be way too much--that makes a total of 21 goddam squadmates (23 if you count Morinth or the other VS) across three games.  That's a pretty big cast, even for a trilogy.  Best to not go over that, regardless of who comes back.

Look at it this way: returning characters would preserve a sense of continuity, keep the fans happy, and earn BW points as one of the most dedicated and innovative developers out there (since they overcame the SM hurdle).  However, people who happen to have wiped out half their squad, while missing out on content (that they probably didn't want), won't have to deal with an unbalanced team or epic loneliness because the new guys will give them a small, tightly-knit, cohesive squad.  The "default" save could throw entirely new players a bone by including at leat a coupe of the new guys, striking a balance between cutting content and overwhelming the poor little noob.  As for the squaddies that did get cameo'd, their new roles would be satisfactory enough that fans, for the most part, wouldn't get their undies in a bundle (so long as another Horizon is avoided).

Everyone wins.

EDIT: And yes, character development can still take place in a plot-centric story.  For example, Earth gets blown up.  How would your human squadmates react?  How would it change them?

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 18 février 2011 - 06:31 .


#875
Wittand25

Wittand25
  • Members
  • 1 602 messages

nevar00 wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...Do I think Bioware is capable of writing 10 new characters as good as the ones in ME2 ? Totally.

I am certain that they can. But why bother when you already have some proven popular characters? Sounds like more work to write someone from scratch and it may become unpopular anyway. Better to improve a winning concept like they did with Garrus and Tali. They do have even more fans after ME2 you know.


Not to mention you'd have to go into all their background, family life, etc... I don't care how bad your dad was, you should be commenting on how the Reapers just destroyed another planet, damnit!

It would be easier to have more plot-centered discussions with already established teammates.

Not really. All the existing characters have a background that needs to be considered when writing for them. And even worse all of them can be dead, so you cannot have any important conversation with any of them unless the talks are generic enough that all of them can fill in for every spot. The only way to have dialog concerning plot ,especially dialog that involves more than one squad-member at one time, is with new NPCs, because Bioware cannot be sure about the existence of the old team-members and therefore cannot give important dialog to them. You should take note for example that all important talk in ME2 happened with unavailable Squad-members, who even gave input on other team-mates while the optional members hardly even acknowledge the existence of things outside of their missions.