927 réponses à ce sujet

[lazuli]

I am inclined to agree with the OP. If squadmates don't all get their own missions in ME3 and their interactions follow the same format of ME2 (they all say something at the same parts of a mission that fits in with what any other squadmate might say*), then implementing them will not be as difficult as it would be if they all actually reacted to one another in unique ways.



*Play through the Jacob's loyalty mission a few times, each time with a different squadmate, and you will see how Bioware wrote the dialogue. This is just one of many examples.

[samuraix87]

you guys also forget that most if not all the va's have signed a 2 game contract so they will be back

[Alienmorph]

samuraix87 wrote...

you guys also forget that most if not all the va's have signed a 2 game contract so they will be back

Really? Great ^^

[Elite Midget]

lazuli wrote...

I am inclined to agree with the OP. If squadmates don't all get their own missions in ME3 and their interactions follow the same format of ME2 (they all say something at the same parts of a mission that fits in with what any other squadmate might say*), then implementing them will not be as difficult as it would be if they all actually reacted to one another in unique ways.

*Play through the Jacob's loyalty mission a few times, each time with a different squadmate, and you will see how Bioware wrote the dialogue. This is just one of many examples.

So you support destroying immersion, wasteing resources, and killing any Squaddie interativity within the story all so you can have some dead people back?

[Mystranna Kelteel]

samuraix87 wrote...
you guys also forget that most if not all the va's have signed a 2 game contract so they will be back

I think there's no question that they'll be back (or the vast amjority of them).  It's just what their role will be that's unknown.

[Elite Midget]

Cameos, NPC, or maybe even Temp Squaddies for a mission or two ala Liara from LoTSB. Those all could work in without destroying the Story at all for ME3 as a Standalone experience.



Don't know about you but the jump from ME1->2 kept he standalone experiences and all you messed were mostly non-gameplay/masin plot things if you went around killing everyone in ME1. I see Bioware doing the same. You'll be punished but not in a way that will effect your Shepard in saving the Galaxy in ME3 nor will they make it harder if you lost more Squaddies than the Completionist that desires to punish you for not making the perfect Shepard.

[lazuli]

Elite Midget wrote...

lazuli wrote...

I am inclined to agree with the OP. If squadmates don't all get their own missions in ME3 and their interactions follow the same format of ME2 (they all say something at the same parts of a mission that fits in with what any other squadmate might say*), then implementing them will not be as difficult as it would be if they all actually reacted to one another in unique ways.

*Play through the Jacob's loyalty mission a few times, each time with a different squadmate, and you will see how Bioware wrote the dialogue. This is just one of many examples.

So you support destroying immersion, wasteing resources, and killing any Squaddie interativity within the story all so you can have some dead people back?

You may notice that I never said anything about what I support, I just said that I agreed with the OP in that characters will probably return.

[Phaedon]

Elite Midget wrote...

So basically...

You want Bioware to retcon out everything that isn't 'Alive' or 'Dead'? Cuz that's exactly what it sounds like you're saying. If that's the case I doubt Bioware will retcon anything to appease the vocal crowd especially since they will have a much grander time with new Squaddies instead of compensateing those that can't lead the dead rest in peace.

What? What retcon, this thread proves that it's possible for alive squadmates to return without cameos or retcons.

@Mystranna
I enjoyed debating with you, but at this point, we'll only argue about what works better economically for Bioware, and I think that this will only lead to speculation. I don't know, and I can't prove that squaddies will return in ME3, I certainly hope so, but what I can do, and what this thread does, is prove that it is possible. 

Modifié par Phaedon, 29 décembre 2010 - 04:35 .

[Praetor Knight]

I'm fine if some of the ME2 squad returns as NPCs that do not fight with Shep as controllable squad-mates, or only as temp ones.

When I first played ME2, I went in blind and was, honestly, a bit sad when I first learned Tali had her own mission, then that Ash/Kaidan had that awkward Horizon moment, and that Wrex would not be joining me.

But after completing ME2, I was glad that the characters evolved and stayed mostly true to themselves, it made the game feel more realistic and believable, regardless of what I liked and didn't like about the story.

So I'm fine if some of the ME2 squad does not fight along side Shep, and appear in ME3 in another capacity.

I'm confident that Bioware will do a good job with the ME3 squad, IMHO. They have so far right?

[Computron2000]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
And all I'm saying is that BioWare will have to put about the same effort in to accomodate those who killed 2 as they would for those who killed 10.

One question. Why?

If as you noted there are 4 easily possible squadmates, you have choices. Not as many as those who put in the EFFORT to play the game. Bioware is not ignoring you but at the same time demanding that they make your play experience as full as those who actively did the mission is frankly shortsighted.

Using the same logic, those new to Bioware should be writing hate mail on "why the hell is Conrad whats his name not at the bar on illum in my game?".

The reason is because you're a casual gamer? You're joking right? Even casual gamers will finish a game that have massively big arrows on what to do next. The only difference is that casual gamers will do it much more slowly and they are less likely to rerun the entire thing with a new class.

Seriously i had to ignore all loyalty missions even though Kelly bugs me on someone wanting to talk then talking to that someone you have to ignore the big "Game content here arrow" AND leave grunt in the tank AND sell legion then ensure that the less capable members are assigned to the wrong tasks. Do you know how incredibly stupid i had to act?

Hell not happy with 4? Start a new game. The new game will almost definitely have a number greater than 4. And the "new game" option will be why its economical to pay a bunch of people to read lines.

Modifié par Computron2000, 29 décembre 2010 - 05:00 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Computron2000 wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
And all I'm saying is that BioWare will have to put about the same effort in to accomodate those who killed 2 as they would for those who killed 10.

One question. Why?
If as you noted there are 4 squadmates, you have choices. Not as many as those who put in the EFFORT to play the game. Bioware is not ignoring you but at the same time demanding that they make your play experience as full as those who actively did the mission is frankly shortsighted.

Using the same logic, those new to Bioware should be writing hate mail on "why the hell is whats his name not at the bar on illum in my game?"

Hell not happy with 4? Start a new game. The new game will almost definitely have a number greater than 4. And the "new game" option will be why its economical to pay a bunch of people to read lines.

I'm honestly not sure what your question is.

The reason why BioWare has to put in the same amount of effort for those who killed 2 squaddies as opposed to those who killed 10 is simple.
Those "2" squaddies in scenario A could have been anyone.  Therefore BioWare has to make that optional content available for every combination of surviving squadmates.  So, in the end, they will have made optional content for all the squaddies because in one person's playthrough they lost Garrus and Jack, and in another person's playthrough that person lost Grunt and Legion, and in another person's playthrough that person lost Miranda, Mordin, Jacob, Kasumi, Zaeed, and Tali.

So all of those options have to be accounted for with character death flags, and in the end they will end up creating those flags for every single character who is killable.  Hence they need to put the same effort and resources for those who lost 2 as they would have for those who lost ten.
That is, again, unless they go into retcons.

[Computron2000]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
I'm honestly not sure what your question is.

My response is in connection to what i quoted and this
"So BioWare is going to have to entertain my only Morinth and Kasumi playthrough. And making me play through ME3 with only 2 squaddies is not going to be feasible unless squaddies in general are drastically reduced in dialogue and overall worth."

It is feasible for the reasons detailed prior

[habitat 67]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

I'm honestly not sure what your question is.

The reason why BioWare has to put in the same amount of effort for those who killed 2 squaddies as opposed to those who killed 10 is simple.
Those "2" squaddies in scenario A could have been anyone.  Therefore BioWare has to make that optional content available for every combination of surviving squadmates.  So, in the end, they will have made optional content for all the squaddies because in one person's playthrough they lost Garrus and Jack, and in another person's playthrough that person lost Grunt and Legion, and in another person's playthrough that person lost Miranda, Mordin, Jacob, Kasumi, Zaeed, and Tali.

Sorry, the way you say it sounds like it makes sense but it doesn't really.
A very small percentage lost all but two squadmates. Deducting content of each dead one would still make a decent amount of content overall for the majority of the audience.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

I see that people are big on exaggerating how "hard" it is to get people killed.



It's extremely easy to get one or two people killed.

"Woops, didn't talk to Jacob about the ship armor; Jack's dead."

"Garrus has tech skills; let's see if he can get through the vent! Nope, oh, well."

"Mordin died holding the line? Why!?" <- and that was a very common "problem" people had; I remember it being brought up a lot when people were first going through the SM.



Yeah, you need to put in a lot of effort to get the maximum amount of people killed, and some characters are easier to kill than others, but that doesn't change the fact that they all can die in any combination.

So, I guess if you think it's feasible for BioWare to make me play through ME3 with only Morinth and Kasumi on my renegade Shep, I don't know what to say other than "I disagree." XD

ME3 will have to be a standalone game, and BioWare is going to have to make optional content flags for all the ME2 squaddies. So it's easiest to make those 12 content flags into less resource-intensive features like cameos. And I especially don't see BioWare making the Me2 squad your only choices... It's just absurd.

[Elite Midget]

Especially since I bet that guy in the trailer will be your first new Squaddie. >_>

[Phaedon]

Elite Midget wrote...

Especially since I bet that guy in the trailer will be your first new Squaddie. >_>

Nobody said that there won't be any new squaddies.

[Volband]

Yeah, I remember a game called Mass Effect, in which you could finish the game with 4 (if you can kill Wrex, then 3, I'm not sure though if you can if you didn't recruit Garrus) squad mates. Whaaaat?



So tell me (who'd win a fi..., wrong line, sry), why would it be impossible? Worst case scenario you are into the third installation with 2 squad members, although even the most casual gamer has more surviving squad members, but let's just avoid common sense, and say we have two survivors. If in the third installation Bioware provides us with three additional squad mates, then it's basically just like ME1. Hell, if we'll get VS as a squad mate, then the number drops from three to two. Is this impossible? The only thing they need to take care of, that the "forced" squad members in the third game has impact on the story, like Liara in ME1.



If that's done, they don't have to give plot role for the ME 2 survivors, they can be like Garrus\\Wrex\\Tali (okay, she had an impact at the beginning, but that's all) in ME1. They can provide conflictions, like Wrex on Virmire, but doesn't have crucial roles, if you want they can rot on the ship whole game long.



And now, let's say none of your folks have died! You say it's too much work and money to implement all of them, but I say why? They don't need loyalty missions, ME2 was basically about building your team. When the Reapers knocking on the door in ME3, your allies won't turn against you, saying "sorry Shepard, if you don't help me with [blablabla] I'll just watch the whole galaxy die, even though we are through a suicide mission which forged us into a big, great team, but who cares, right, right???". Maybe the ones who hate you (like Jack or Miranda if you don't choose one of the charm options) will have changes like paragon\\renegade Garrus. But that's not that big of a deal.



So basically they'll be on your ship, you can talk with them, deepen your love towards each other, whatever. If someone's dead, then he\\she doesn't on the ship, that's all. The VA of them is just s "wasted" like the VA of Garrus or Wrex in the first game. And yes, it costs more to "waste" more people, but I believe the budget is also bigger. And also, for the fans, it would really feel good.



So yes, it costs money, but just because they don't have crucial role, doesn't mean they can't join us, so please, drop that arguement...



Howewer, there's an arguement which is very understandable: players who didn't play ME 1 and 2. Well, they can have some members from the second game (Jacob, Miranda, Jack, Mordin, Garrus, and Grunt HAD TO BE recruited, so let's say three of them will be there*), there are the "forced" squaddies of ME 3 which I mentioned earlier, and the possiblity of the VS.



*if this will be the case, then it would mean less "wasted" VO for characters, because some of them will be needed anyway for the nwcomers.



After all, we can safely say that yes, it would be work, yes, it would be money, but no, it would not be THAT impossible as some people would like to think.

[Computron2000]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
I see that people are big on exaggerating how "hard" it is to get people killed.

*facepalm* If you're referring to me, let me point out that i actually quoted this by YOU

"And all I'm saying is that BioWare will have to put about the same effort in to accomodate those who killed 2 as they would for those who killed 10."

Does that mean i'm saying its easy to make sure everyone is alive? Seriously, give me an answer to that question so i can tailor responses to the required level

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Yeah, you need to put in a lot of effort to get the maximum amount of people killed, and some characters are easier to kill than others, but that doesn't change the fact that they all can die in any combination.

Yes and yet you purposely use the scenario of only having 2 characters, know that there are 2 MORE easily added characters (Liara, Virmire Survivor) then complain that you would then be FORCED to use 2 characters for the entirety of ME3.

I really canot see the reasoning. Its the equivalent of me stabbing myself and you bandaging me then me complaining that you did not stop me from stabbing myself

[marshalleck]

Wow, Mystranna's still beating this dead horse a year later? Yikes.

Modifié par marshalleck, 29 décembre 2010 - 05:47 .

[Bamboozalist]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
And all I'm saying is that BioWare will have to put about the same effort in to accomodate those who killed 2 as they would for those who killed 10.

One question. Why?
If as you noted there are 4 squadmates, you have choices. Not as many as those who put in the EFFORT to play the game. Bioware is not ignoring you but at the same time demanding that they make your play experience as full as those who actively did the mission is frankly shortsighted.

Using the same logic, those new to Bioware should be writing hate mail on "why the hell is whats his name not at the bar on illum in my game?"

Hell not happy with 4? Start a new game. The new game will almost definitely have a number greater than 4. And the "new game" option will be why its economical to pay a bunch of people to read lines.

I'm honestly not sure what your question is.

The reason why BioWare has to put in the same amount of effort for those who killed 2 squaddies as opposed to those who killed 10 is simple.
Those "2" squaddies in scenario A could have been anyone.  Therefore BioWare has to make that optional content available for every combination of surviving squadmates.  So, in the end, they will have made optional content for all the squaddies because in one person's playthrough they lost Garrus and Jack, and in another person's playthrough that person lost Grunt and Legion, and in another person's playthrough that person lost Miranda, Mordin, Jacob, Kasumi, Zaeed, and Tali.

So all of those options have to be accounted for with character death flags, and in the end they will end up creating those flags for every single character who is killable.  Hence they need to put the same effort and resources for those who lost 2 as they would have for those who lost ten.
That is, again, unless they go into retcons.

And you're point is? The resources would be in the game regardless, if they made 10 all new squadmates they'd still need 10 batches of resources just like if they brought back 10 previous squadmates. The only difference is the new squadmates require entirely new character modles, animations, and all that crap compared to the old ones that just require tweeking. They would need to make 24 outcomes, not 4096 for every surviving combination. Each squadmates files and flags are completely independent from each other, any overlapping stuff like say Tali and Legion having a conversation, is instantly gone the second one of those squadmates isn't there so no they don't have to make any extra crap.

As for VA budget ME2 alone had so much unused crap in it that there is no reason this would be an issue, plus Martin Sheen probably costs more than the rest of the cast combined...maybe not Adam Baldwin and Seth Green, but any of the people who do VA work for a living.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Computron2000 wrote...
*facepalm* If you're referring to me, let me point out that i actually quoted this by YOU
"And all I'm saying is that BioWare will have to put about the same effort in to accomodate those who killed 2 as they would for those who killed 10."
Does that mean i'm saying its easy to make sure everyone is alive? Seriously, give me an answer to that question so i can tailor responses to the required level

I was referring to a lot of people.  Many people have said or implied that finishing the game with squaddies dying takes more effort than keeping everyone alive.
I don't know how easy you personally think it is to keep everyone alive; my statement was generalized. There are many ways to get people killed, and BioWare will have to account for all of it. That's all.

Yes and yet you purposely use the scenario of only having 2 characters, know that there are 2 MORE easily added characters (Liara, Virmire Survivor) then complain that you would then be FORCED to use 2 characters for the entirety of ME3.

I really canot see the reasoning. Its the equivalent of me stabbing myself and you bandaging me then me complaining that you did not stop me from stabbing myself

Hey, I'm not complaining about anything. On the contrary, I said I would LOVE to see BioWare implement a Morinth and Kasumi only scenario.  I just don't believe they will; it's too much effort with too little payoff unless they half-ass it all and make the squadmate roles essentially useless.
I don't honestly expect to have Liara or the VS back as squaddies., especially after LotSB, which proves that BioWare can both give you a romance with a non-squaddy and set up decent, important cameo roles.

[Alienmorph]

About Liara, Wrex and VS... they'll have an important rhole, but surely not as squadmates (VS maybe). So probably the slots that the ME2 team's haters count for them probably will be used for the new entries... Liara didn't have time to join Shep when she was just an information broker... now she's the dammit SB herself! And krogans will kill Wrex if he won't be a decent leader, they say so several times, so he'll remain too. VS probably will be the contact between Shep and the Alliance, that I admit that would be a rhole easily doable making him/her a squadmate too, but then it comes the same problem that the ME2's squaddies have... both Ash and Kaiden can die, so you will be such a waaaaste of moneys and time make dialogues and other stuffs to make one of them again a squaddie... and they're not even fully interchangeable, 'cause they've got fully differnt skills. So what makes them easier to be in ME3's team? In the moment you'll see a trailer with VS as full playable character almost for sure it will mean that some of the ME2's crew will return too.

Modifié par Alienmorph, 29 décembre 2010 - 05:56 .

[Elite Midget]

I 'really' think some of you are misreading the 'building your team' concept.



You were building a 'team' to stop human abductions by the 'Collectors'. Also, some of you keep saying that everyone survived for you. Cool, but that doesn't change that Thane is dieing of a disease, Mordin is getting old, Grunt has sworn to returmn to lead his Clan to Glory, Zaeed stateing that he will leave no matter what, Samara stateing that she will leae or try and kill you if she meets Shepard again, and the such.



Bioware has dropped many hints, especially through the e-mails, throughout ME2 and to Bioware those are all valid reasons as to why the deceased will leave Shepard in the end. It compensates all scenerioes without diverting too much time or resources away from the ME3 Plot.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Bamboozalist wrote...
And you're point is? The resources would be in the game regardless, if they made 10 all new squadmates they'd still need 10 batches of resources just like if they brought back 10 previous squadmates. The only difference is the new squadmates require entirely new character modles, animations, and all that crap compared to the old ones that just require tweeking. They would need to make 24 outcomes, not 4096 for every surviving combination. Each squadmates files and flags are completely independent from each other, any overlapping stuff like say Tali and Legion having a conversation, is instantly gone the second one of those squadmates isn't there so no they don't have to make any extra crap.

As for VA budget ME2 alone had so much unused crap in it that there is no reason this would be an issue, plus Martin Sheen probably costs more than the rest of the cast combined...maybe not Adam Baldwin and Seth Green, but any of the people who do VA work for a living.

Here are my points:
1) Yes, they will need 12 batches of optional content resources in both scenarios.  However, squad-mate resources are a lot more in quantity than cameo resources.
2) BioWare re-uses character models all the time.  Why would they need new animations? They'd have to make new faces and hire new voice actors.  And if those new voice actors are voicing content that everyone who plays ME3 will see, it's more cost effective than having 12 different people voice a crap-load of the same lines.
3) Think about how much "unused dialogue" ME2 had.  It may seem like a lot, sure, but it really wasn't too much.  They decided to make character carry overs like Garrus's alignment into one line acknowledgments, and Morinth uses both Samara's voice and character model throughout the majority of her use. (and all this would be multiplied by a LOT more for ME3, which has even more optional crap).

All things I mentioned already, but, there you go.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 29 décembre 2010 - 05:59 .

[habitat 67]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
I was referring to a lot of people.  Many people have said or implied that finishing the game with squaddies dying takes more effort than keeping everyone alive.

No, you keep bringing up the arguement of how gimped a 2 survivor only playthrough would be.  It would. A very small percentage of players will be using this for a playthrough, so why would they be catered to?

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
I said I would LOVE to see BioWare implement a Morinth and Kasumi only scenario.  I just don't believe they will; it's too much effort with too little payoff unless they half-ass it all and make the squadmate roles essentially useless.

Let's say each squad member consisted of 10% of content. See, it adds up the more surviving people there are. I'm going to say loosely the average player lost 2-3 suadmates, so they would only be loosing 20-30% of content. Bioware does this all the time and it encourages multiple playthroughs.  They would still get the other 70%-80%.

You are implying that those who'd get only the 20% of content matter as much as the vast majority that kept evryone alive. They don't. They get punished for playing the game as badly as possible.