927 réponses à ce sujet

[Matt VT Schlo]

One thing is certain: no matter what Bioware does, people are gonna **** about it

[Bamboozalist]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...
And you're point is? The resources would be in the game regardless, if they made 10 all new squadmates they'd still need 10 batches of resources just like if they brought back 10 previous squadmates. The only difference is the new squadmates require entirely new character modles, animations, and all that crap compared to the old ones that just require tweeking. They would need to make 24 outcomes, not 4096 for every surviving combination. Each squadmates files and flags are completely independent from each other, any overlapping stuff like say Tali and Legion having a conversation, is instantly gone the second one of those squadmates isn't there so no they don't have to make any extra crap.

As for VA budget ME2 alone had so much unused crap in it that there is no reason this would be an issue, plus Martin Sheen probably costs more than the rest of the cast combined...maybe not Adam Baldwin and Seth Green, but any of the people who do VA work for a living.

Here are my points:
1) Yes, they will need 12 batches of optional content resources in both scenarios.  However, squad-mate resources are a lot more in quantity than cameo resources.
2) BioWare re-uses character models all the time.  Why would they need new animations? They'd have to make new faces and hire new voice actors.  And if those new voice actors are voicing content that everyone who plays ME3 will see, it's more cost effective than having 12 different people voice a crap-load of the same lines.
3) Think about how much "unused dialogue" ME2 had.  It may seem like a lot, sure, but it really wasn't too much.  They decided to make character carry overs like Garrus's alignment into one line acknowledgments, and Morinth uses both Samara's voice and character model throughout the majority of her use.

All things I mentioned already, but, there you go.

1) But old squadmates and new squadmates take up the same amount of resources so the guy with 2 old squadmates would be using the same amount of resources as the guy with 12 new squadmates
2) Go through ME2, that's exactly what they paid 12 people to do, with the exeception of the recruitment and loyalty missions (That pertain to that squadmate) and on Normandy, 90% of squad dialouge in ME1 and ME2 is different variations of THE SAME LINES, so no they're not doing anything new or more expensive, sorry you have outside of missions relating to the character and their normandy conversations MAYBE at best 30 lines of unique dialogue per character that are not just different variations of the same line.
3) Yet they still wasted time fully recording everything but the sex scene for the F/F relationships for Jack, Tali AND Miranda, and they still put it in the game. That with dialogue combinations is close to how many lines of unique off ship dialogue characters have. So yeah it's a lot.

[Alienmorph]

Elite Midget wrote...

I 'really' think some of you are misreading the 'building your team' concept.

You were building a 'team' to stop human abductions by the 'Collectors'. Also, some of you keep saying that everyone survived for you. Cool, but that doesn't change that Thane is dieing of a disease, Mordin is getting old, Grunt has sworn to returmn to lead his Clan to Glory, Zaeed stateing that he will leave no matter what, Samara stateing that she will leae or try and kill you if she meets Shepard again, and the such.

Bioware has dropped many hints, especially through the e-mails, throughout ME2 and to Bioware those are all valid reasons as to why the deceased will leave Shepard in the end. It compensates all scenerioes without diverting too much time or resources away from the ME3 Plot.

Thane's minimun lifetime left is of 9-10 months, so unless ME3 will be set years after ME2 can return. Mordin have 10 years left, so it's the same. Grunt can live centuries and considers Shepard the best non-krogan warrior alive, so he doesn't urge to return. Samara menaces to kill Shepard only if he acts in disonorable way and so.

There are strong reasons for anyone both to stay and leave, in theory. If you pretend that all these foreshadows will count then yes, there are too many variables. But what if t BW simply did those foreshadows to have a chance to put aside a few squadmates but for most of them the unique important variable becames the SM? Then having back something like 1/2 of the team and keep the others as important NpCs becames possible imoh. If only one or two of them had plausible reasons to leave that now there will be people who complains that the fate of this or that character is too predictable. 

[Bamboozalist]

habitat 67 wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
I was referring to a lot of people.  Many people have said or implied that finishing the game with squaddies dying takes more effort than keeping everyone alive.

No, you keep bringing up the arguement of how gimped a 2 survivor only playthrough would be.  It would. A very small percentage of players will be using this for a playthrough, so why would they be catered to?

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
I said I would LOVE to see BioWare implement a Morinth and Kasumi only scenario.  I just don't believe they will; it's too much effort with too little payoff unless they half-ass it all and make the squadmate roles essentially useless.

Let's say each squad member consisted of 10% of content. See, it adds up the more surviving people there are. I'm going to say loosely the average player lost 2-3 suadmates, so they would only be loosing 20-30% of content. Bioware does this all the time and it encourages multiple playthroughs.  They would still get the other 70%-80%.

You are implying that those who'd get only the 20% of content matter as much as the vast majority that kept evryone alive. They don't. They get punished for playing the game as badly as possible.

That's if a squadmate is 10% of content which it won't be, you're looking at 2% MAX, it's 10% in a game based entirely around building a squad, but look at how much "content" each squadmate in ME1 was, in fact except for Tali and Liara you could technically get through the game plot wise with no one else and not miss anything really big in ME1, other than no one sacrificing themselves on Virmire.

[Elite Midget]

They aren't being catered too.

Bioware is catering for all scenerios. Don't get it twisted and try and make it seem that Bioware is only trying to cater for those that lost no one to those that lost nearly everyone.

Squaddies effect gameplay, story progression, game balance, and story intergration. Having a bunch of the long dead around with only a few short words is a greater insult than giviving them the red carpet treatment that Liara got in LoTSB.

Edit: Timeline.

ME2->1 Year Later=Retribution->???(Maybe extras)->?? Year(s) Later=ME3

Modifié par Elite Midget, 29 décembre 2010 - 06:11 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

habitat 67 wrote...
No, you keep bringing up the arguement of how gimped a 2 survivor only playthrough would be.  It would. A very small percentage of players will be using this for a playthrough, so why would they be catered to?
Let's say each squad member consisted of 10% of content. See, it adds up the more surviving people there are. I'm going to say loosely the average player lost 2-3 suadmates, so they would only be loosing 20-30% of content. Bioware does this all the time and it encourages multiple playthroughs.  They would still get the other 70%-80%.
You are implying that those who'd get only the 20% of content matter as much as the vast majority that kept evryone alive. They don't. They get punished for playing the game as badly as possible.

I don't recall saying a 2 party playthrough would be gimped.  I think it's unlikely because that means that BioWare can't put any of the plot development into the party members unless every line is a throwaway line that can be parroted by any other squaddy.
And again, the amount of resources it takes to make 12 optional combat party members has never been done before.  At most BioWare has done 2-3 (and I won't count Morinth). And even then those 2-3 optional party members were all created for the same game specifically as part of that game's resources and plot.  Carrying over those 12 party members from ME2 is not the same situation as introducing Legion and letting the player decide not to activate it.
Again, it makes more sense for BioWare to just make all that optional content into a Wrex style cameo. 12 Wrex cameos is a lot less labor-intensive than 12 full-blown party members (unless those party members have next to no depth or content).
Because, like I said, BioWare is going to have to create optional content for all 12 characters anyways.  It's easier by far for them all to be cameos, or for the vast majority of them to be cameos.
And now I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

[Bamboozalist]

Elite Midget wrote...

They aren't being catered too.

Bioware is catering for all scenerios. Don't get it twisted and try and make it seem that Bioware is only trying to cater for those that lost no one to those that lost nearly everyone.

Squaddies effect gameplay, story progression, game balance, and story intergration. Having a bunch of the long dead around with only a few short words is a greater insult than giviving them the red carpet treatment that Liara got in LoTSB.

Really? Because I could have gotten rid of all but Tali, Liara, and someone to blow themselves up on Virmire/use the beacon on Eden prime and ME1 would have been pretty much the same game. So that means that half the squad is completely pointless in ME1 and Tali/The VS are only important to the plot for maybe an hour.

[Elite Midget]

I strongly believe the best that ME2 Fans can hope for that is plausible is...



The Wrex Treatment



The VS Treatment



or...



The Liara Red Carpet with Balloon Animal Parades plus Cake/Pie Treatment

[Elite Midget]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Really? Because I could have gotten rid of all but Tali, Liara, and someone to blow themselves up on Virmire/use the beacon on Eden prime and ME1 would have been pretty much the same game. So that means that half the squad is completely pointless in ME1 and Tali/The VS are only important to the plot for maybe an hour.

Yet you're missing the most important thing.

They 'were' important to the plot in some way, shape, or form and a VS and Tali 'had' to survive ME1.

For ME2 only some of the NPCs, Liara, and VS has to survive its events.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 29 décembre 2010 - 06:15 .

[Big stupid jellyfish]

Heh. Why are people so sure Bioware would go the easiest and cheapest (i.e. replacing ME2 squaddies with new ones) way?



Yeah, keeping ME2 squadmates may require more resources, work, whatever. Still, it's Bioware's story. Should they decide it's worth it, they'd go for it.



(Hint: Now we can start bashing EA for making Bioware go the cheapest route.)

[NamiraWilhelm]

Even if its not logical for someone or something to be brought back, if the devs want to do it, they will. Even Gaider has admitted this

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Bamboozalist wrote...
1) But old squadmates and new squadmates take up the same amount of resources so the guy with 2 old squadmates would be using the same amount of resources as the guy with 12 new squadmates

If they use the same amount of resources then it makes more sense for them to maximize those resources, yes? 12 optional squaddies are not as efficient as 12 new squaddies, whom everyone will be exposed to equally.

[Bamboozalist]

Elite Midget wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

Really? Because I could have gotten rid of all but Tali, Liara, and someone to blow themselves up on Virmire/use the beacon on Eden prime and ME1 would have been pretty much the same game. So that means that half the squad is completely pointless in ME1 and Tali/The VS are only important to the plot for maybe an hour.

Yet you're missing the most important thing.

They 'were' important to the plot in some way, shape, or form and a VS and Tali 'had' to survive ME1.

For ME2 only some of the NPCs, Liara, and VS has to survive its events.

No, they didn't Tali could haved died the second she handed you the data about Saren and NOTHING in would have changed in the overall ME1 main plot line, Both VS could have died on Virmire and NOTHING would have changed in the overall ME1 main plot line, Liara could have died on Ilos and NOTHING would have changed in the overall ME1 main plot line. Half the squad as a whole was useless to the plot, 2 where important for one and two scenes and the other one was depending on how soon you got her good for three to one scenes. NPCs could have easily filled their roles in the plot that's how small they were.

[Elite Midget]

Because it means that they will be able to release the game in a reasonable time table. Trying to intergrateing 12 deceased Squaddies that aren't in every save is expensive, resource heavy, and requiers a lot of time and space.



We keep saying ity because it's economics 101 and doing all that will take years and Bioware wont see the payout they want if they go down that path. Especially since they have to take into consideration on what EA wants as well.



What some fans want is the impossible and it's just setting themselves up for dissapointment since Bioware can't fulfill their desires on such a massive scale.



That's why they should 'hope' that they're either treated right as Cameo's or hope for the Liara Red Carpet Treatment.

[Bamboozalist]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...
1) But old squadmates and new squadmates take up the same amount of resources so the guy with 2 old squadmates would be using the same amount of resources as the guy with 12 new squadmates

If they use the same amount of resources then it makes more sense for them to maximize those resources, yes? 12 optional squaddies are not as efficient as 12 new squaddies, whom everyone will be exposed to equally.

1) Anyone doing a non import new game will be getting the 86% statistic probably so they won't be missing out on much, probably as much total combined material as they would have in ME2 without importing since beyond unique ship chats most squadmates say pretty much the same thing in missions.
2) Anyone importing is importing what they want so it's not opimizing jack because if someone went out of their way to make a 2 person import (which you have to actively try to do) they're importing it because they want to see how screwed they are/if they can do it.

[Mr.House]

Everyone look at Wrex.







See him? What happen to him in ME2? Oh ya he was given a cameo and a interchangeable character so he can still be important to the overall plot, the point is this tho, he could die and did not come back. That's one character, you really expect Bioware to bring back 10 plus 2 dlc characters back?

[Bamboozalist]

Elite Midget wrote...

Because it means that they will be able to release the game in a reasonable time table. Trying to intergrateing 12 deceased Squaddies that aren't in every save is expensive, resource heavy, and requiers a lot of time and space.

We keep saying ity because it's economics 101 and doing all that will take years and Bioware wont see the payout they want if they go down that path. Especially since they have to take into consideration on what EA wants as well.

What some fans want is the impossible and it's just setting themselves up for dissapointment since Bioware can't fulfill their desires on such a massive scale.

That's why they should 'hope' that they're either treated right as Cameo's or hope for the Liara Red Carpet Treatment.

It will literally take ZERO more resources than making 12 new squadmates. The question is if those are optimumly used resources.

[habitat 67]

Elite Midget wrote...
Bioware is catering for all scenerios. Don't get it twisted and try and make it seem that Bioware is only trying to cater for those that lost no one to those that lost nearly everyone.

It's not an all or none arguement, and I have nothing twisted.
12>11>10>9>8>7>6>5>4>3>2  but I do believe a few squadmates will be cameos regardless.

[Elite Midget]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

Really? Because I could have gotten rid of all but Tali, Liara, and someone to blow themselves up on Virmire/use the beacon on Eden prime and ME1 would have been pretty much the same game. So that means that half the squad is completely pointless in ME1 and Tali/The VS are only important to the plot for maybe an hour.

Yet you're missing the most important thing.

They 'were' important to the plot in some way, shape, or form and a VS and Tali 'had' to survive ME1.

For ME2 only some of the NPCs, Liara, and VS has to survive its events.

No, they didn't Tali could haved died the second she handed you the data about Saren and NOTHING in would have changed in the overall ME1 main plot line, Both VS could have died on Virmire and NOTHING would have changed in the overall ME1 main plot line, Liara could have died on Ilos and NOTHING would have changed in the overall ME1 main plot line. Half the squad as a whole was useless to the plot, 2 where important for one and two scenes and the other one was depending on how soon you got her good for three to one scenes. NPCs could have easily filled their roles in the plot that's how small they were.

Ummm... Tali 'can't' die in ME1. I'm pretty sure of it and no searches on the internet give any indication that she could die. So what are you spinning here? A What-If Fan Fantasy to try and proof your inpluasible desire? Also, they both 'can' die but one of them 'has' to live. What don't you get? One of the VS  'HAS' to live. None of the ME2 Squaddies 'has' to live. Even 'if' they leave there are a 'number' of things Shepard can do to push them away that will make them leave anyway.

So what are you doing bringing up this 'what if' stuff? Those characters all did something in ME1 and were all important at certian points. Such as VS on Eden Prime and Virmire, Tali with the Data, Garrus with his case, Wrex bringing down Fist who was aideing Saren, and Liara aideing with the Cipher and tracking down Saren. All important to the plot, all needed at those points. They all 'could' have died but in ME1 'only' Wrex 'had the 'chance'' of death.

NPCs 'could' have filed their roles but guess what? Bioware didn't replace them with NPCs and only Wrex didn't have to make it through ME1. While no one 'has' to survive ME2 other than Shepard, Liara, VS, and 'some' of the NPC Crew.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Bamboozalist wrote...
1) Anyone doing a non import new game will be getting the 86% statistic probably so they won't be missing out on much, probably as much total combined material as they would have in ME2 without importing since beyond unique ship chats most squadmates say pretty much the same thing in missions.
2) Anyone importing is importing what they want so it's not opimizing jack because if someone went out of their way to make a 2 person import (which you have to actively try to do) they're importing it because they want to see how screwed they are/if they can do it.

I don't see how this counters my point.
It's easier and more efficient to have a brand new party that every single player is exposed to, regardless of their prior game decisions or whether or not they're importing.

I didn't say that it's so much easier that BioWare would never even consider bringing some of the ME2 people back; I just really, really don't see how it's feasible or logical to expect they will bring them ALL back.
Like I said earlier, Legion may be back. I can see that. But the rest? Nobody stands out as being likely.

[Bamboozalist]

Mr.House wrote...

Everyone look at Wrex.



See him? What happen to him in ME2? Oh ya he was given a cameo and a interchangeable character so he can still be important to the overall plot, the point is this tho, he could die and did not come back. That's one character, you really expect Bioware to bring back 10 plus 2 dlc characters back?

1. Wrex has been mentioning Tuchanka and uniting the clans since ME1, I don't know why anyone expected him to stay.
2. Until Bioware shows us what the actual pay off between Wrex and Wreav is in ME3 we have no way of knowing that. Plot wise it should be huge since without Wrex you have no unified Krogan and no reason for the Krogan to help you.

[Elite Midget]

Bamboozalist wrote...

It will literally take ZERO more resources than making 12 new squadmates. The question is if those are optimumly used resources.

Why would Bioware make 12 new Squaddies? THey could make 6-8 and ME3 would not be compromised at all. However, haveing a 2 random optional characters that could all die in multiple ways in ME2? That would require MANY resources, even if to keep them as mute as they were in ME2 for many missions. Resources aren't unlimited and would be better served catering to 'all' types of saves and not just makeing those No One Left Behind Savers feel better about themselves.

[Bamboozalist]

Elite Midget wrote...

You need reading comprehension.

You said that the ME1 squad was important to the plot that's why they couldn't die.

I was simply pointing out that half the squad isn't even relevant AT ALL and the other half could have died the second their one scene was over and literally nothing in the story would have changed because thats how absolutely little impact they had on the plot. You got the fact that they couldn't die right, but the ME1 squad was relevant to maybe 5% of ME1's plot, if that.

[Elite Midget]

And I'm correct. They are important and the plot needed everyone alive except one VS and Wrex. Which is why Bioware gave the rest plot armor. I don't write this stuff and it's free for all to see.



They were relevant at certian points that was very important to the main plot. Had VS not been there on Eden Prime than Shepard would be dead. Had Tali not had that data than Shepard would have no leads. Had Liara not been there than Shepard wouldn't have found Illos. All important parts of the plot.



You need to see the ripples as well as the current of the river if you want to understand the big picture.

[Bamboozalist]

Elite Midget wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

It will literally take ZERO more resources than making 12 new squadmates. The question is if those are optimumly used resources.

Why would Bioware make 12 new Squaddies? THey could make 6-8 and ME3 would not be compromised at all. However, haveing a 2 random optional characters that could all die in multiple ways in ME2? That would require MANY resources, even if to keep them as mute as they were in ME2 for many missions. Resources aren't unlimited and would be better served catering to 'all' types of saves and not just makeing those No One Left Behind Savers feel better about themselves.

I don't see why they would do that, then you could say people would be complaing about how ME2 got 12 squadmates and they only get 6.

Also the fact that they could die in multiple ways means literally nothing. It's a single flag, dead, now yeah it might not be as simple as 2 flags, maybe you have. Dead, Alive, Loyal, Not Loyal, guess what that pretty much convers all the bases because even if Samara is Loyal and you're renegade and she promises to kill you then you just lump that into the Not Loyal flag as "not returning but not dead". That's still not as many resources as you're making it out to be, it's a standards squadmate's resources and at worst extra alive but not in the squad resources that make up less total space than ME2's cut content.

Mystranna Kelteel is the only one with a valid point and that is resource optimization.

Now @ Mystranna, let me rephase what I was saying, because the non import people are always going to miss out on content but they'll still be given enough in the default to not greatly impact them, so they're automatically optimized. Anyone who is importing is importing what they want to import so it's an efficient use of resources since people who went out of their way to kill all but 2 clearly want to import a 2 person save.