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A common misconception about squadmates in ME3


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#126
Phaedon

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Elite Midget wrote...

Because it means that they will be able to release the game in a reasonable time table. Trying to intergrateing 12 deceased Squaddies that aren't in every save is expensive, resource heavy, and requiers a lot of time and space.

We keep saying ity because it's economics 101 and doing all that will take years and Bioware wont see the payout they want if they go down that path. Especially since they have to take into consideration on what EA wants as well.

What some fans want is the impossible and it's just setting themselves up for dissapointment since Bioware can't fulfill their desires on such a massive scale.

That's why they should 'hope' that they're either treated right as Cameo's or hope for the Liara Red Carpet Treatment.


OK, do you seriously need someone to remind you every 10 posts? It's not more expensive, it doesn't take extra resources or time, it's on the first post! :blink:

#127
Elite Midget

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Umm... Yes it is. What you're asking is the very definition of more work, more resources, and more money being used that would be required to compensate every save type imagined for ME2 concerning Squaddies.

#128
Bamboozalist

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Elite Midget wrote...

And I'm correct. They are important and the plot needed everyone alive except one VS and Wrex. Which is why Bioware gave the rest plot armor. I don't write this stuff and it's free for all to see.

They were relevant at certian points that was very important to the main plot. Had VS not been there on Eden Prime than Shepard would be dead. Had Tali not had that data than Shepard would have no leads. Had Liara not been there than Shepard wouldn't have found Illos. All important parts of the plot.

You need to see the ripples as well as the current of the river if you want to understand the big picture.


Really? Because what exactly did Tali do after giving you that data in relation to the plot? Oh yeah that's right, absolutely nothing. You know what the funny thing about ripples is, if you drop a rock in the water the ripples are going to keep going even if that rock magically vanished from existence a couple of seconds after hitting the water.

Edit: A good example - Tali has as much relevance to ME1's plot as the colonel in the beginning of Saving Private Ryan who tells Tom Hanks to go find Ryan.

Modifié par Bamboozalist, 29 décembre 2010 - 06:47 .


#129
Elite Midget

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Does it matter? Bioware gave Tali Plot Armor after that. From than one she was the offscreen Geth Expert. Deal with it, she was more important in ME1 than anyone outsie of Miranada and Mordin were in ME2. The difference being that no one in ME2 got any Plot Armor thus they weren't important to the 'big picture' like Liara and VS must be since they 'do' have plot armor.

#130
Sorrel

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It's entirely possible that characters from ME2 would return with important stuff for ME3, even if they don't fight by your side this time. Maybe you just chat to them and the information they give you helps to lead you towards a different ending.

I should think it'd be fairly easy to make the story rely on the characters that 'had' to survive in ME2 however, such as Admiral Hackett, Virmire Survivor and Joker, and I'm expecting that's where it's going.



As for 'you almost need to be 100% running the game to have everyone survive' ... not really. My very first playthrough of ME2 I just, you know, played the game and, enjoying the experience I played the missions my crew gave me.

#131
Phaedon

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Elite Midget wrote...

Umm... Yes it is. What you're asking is the very definition of more work, more resources, and more money being used that would be required to compensate every save type imagined for ME2 concerning Squaddies.

What more work? The minimum that they have to do is turn off one variable, one!

And the dead squaddie vanishes. Do they want to make it more complex? That's not that difficult either! Remember the ME1 choices returning to ME2, like let's say the Rachni? That didn't require extra resources or work. 

And what's the alternative? Hire new VAs, design new models, new animations etc. Now this  requires extra resources.

#132
habitat 67

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Half of all VS are dead no matter what.
Based on the ME1 stats released half of all ME2 players used a ME1 import.

None of the ME2 squadmembers have those 50/50 odds, so if anything Wrex, Kaiden and Ashley would be the most likely to be restricted to non squadmates/ cameos in ME3.

Modifié par habitat 67, 29 décembre 2010 - 06:49 .


#133
Bamboozalist

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Elite Midget wrote...

Does it matter? Bioware gave Tali Plot Armor after that. From than one she was the offscreen Geth Expert. Deal with it, she was more important in ME1 than anyone outsie of Miranada and Mordin were in ME2. The difference being that no one in ME2 got any Plot Armor thus they weren't important to the 'big picture' like Liara and VS must be since they 'do' have plot armor.


No, if that's the case than any 8 of your squad members are more important to the plot than anyone in ME1 because you can not start the final mission without breaking the game with out them. Ripples and all man, you said it, I guess you're right. Also there is a difference between giving someone plot armor and simply not giving you a chance to kill them off. Miranda surviving the 2nd part of the suicide mission regardless of anything else is plot armor.

#134
Elite Midget

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So, retcon is what you want?

It's more work because they have to compensate for Squaddies that will die even if they live, those that will leave Shepard anyway(Zaeed, Samara, Grunt, ect...), and the many other reasons that Bioware threw at us in ME2.

You can't just blow those variables away because they're 'inconvient'. They are there are Bioware will compensate for them.

This isn't as simple as Alive or Dead or Loyal or Disloyal. You're trying to simplify things into 4 variables and ignoring those that make that idea un-plausiable.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 29 décembre 2010 - 06:52 .


#135
habitat 67

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What squaddies die even if they live?

#136
Phaedon

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Elite Midget wrote...

So, retcon is what you want?

Retcon, what? Some lived, some died.

It's more work because they have to compensate for Squaddies that will die even if they live, those that will leave Shepard anyway(Zaeed, Samara, Grunt, ect...), and the many other reasons that Bioware threw at us in ME2.

No they don't. Christina Norman already said that those who lost people will have a hard time in ME3.

You can't just blow those variables away because they're 'inconvient'. They are there are Bioware will compensate for them.

Which variables?

This isn't as simple as Alive or Dead or Loyal or Disloyal. You're trying to simplify things into 4 variables and ignoring those that make that idea un-plausiable.

How is it not? At the ending of ME1 you had to choose what to do with the Council. Only a single variable changed.

#137
Mystranna Kelteel

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Phaedon wrote...
No they don't. Christina Norman already said that those who lost people will have a hard time in ME3.


Just to play devil's advocate, she also said that Shepards who romanced Liara in ME1 and then romanced someone else in ME2 would have "some explaining to do" in LotSB... Which didn't really pan out into anything.
It could mean any number of vague things.

#138
Bamboozalist

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Elite Midget wrote...

So, retcon is what you want?

It's more work because they have to compensate for Squaddies that will die even if they live, those that will leave Shepard anyway(Zaeed, Samara, Grunt, ect...), and the many other reasons that Bioware threw at us in ME2.

You can't just blow those variables away because they're 'inconvient'. They are there are Bioware will compensate for them.

This isn't as simple as Alive or Dead or Loyal or Disloyal. You're trying to simplify things into 4 variables and ignoring those that make that idea un-plausiable.


It actually is, if someone is alive, they're alive easy. If they're dead, theyre not alive, easy. If they're not loyal, they're not staying, if they're loyal and they're are staying then they're staying. People who are leaving regardless are simplified to alive or dead.

Seeing as you listed Samara who promises Paragon players she'll return and Grunt who is probably one of the most likely to stay by Shepard's side and not die in the SM (The Shaman has literally no impact on Grunt's choice, Shepard is his battlemaster, and Krogan live for a thousand years, the Shaman just wants you to keep him alive for when the time comes for him to come back) as people who bioware has hinted at leaving, I once again must question your sanity.

#139
Bamboozalist

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Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
No they don't. Christina Norman already said that those who lost people will have a hard time in ME3.


Just to play devil's advocate, she also said that Shepards who romanced Liara in ME1 and then romanced someone else in ME2 would have "some explaining to do" in LotSB... Which didn't really pan out into anything.
It could mean any number of vague things.


To play reverse devil's advocate they did technically have some explaining to do. It just wasn't in the I Love Lucy "Lucy you've got a lot of es'plainin' to do" way.

#140
Phaedon

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Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Just to play devil's advocate, she also said that Shepards who romanced Liara in ME1 and then romanced someone else in ME2 would have "some explaining to do" in LotSB... Which didn't really pan out into anything.
It could mean any number of vague things.

Actually, if you filter what she said, then it's true. There were some consequences for your actions.

#141
Elite Midget

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Again, you're 'trying' to simplify things. This isn't a simple matter and it isn't so simple to say...



"Let's give this Shepard the bird conserning max Squaddie Size, gameplay balance, story progression, or the such and let's pamper this Shepard for keeping all the killables alive and loyal."



To you it might be but when your actions determine whether you alienate the majority of fans than you have to weigh in.



Appease the Casuals and those that are the truckload of revenue or appease the Local Minority that will never be pleased. Hard choice, huh?

#142
Alienmorph

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Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
No they don't. Christina Norman already said that those who lost people will have a hard time in ME3.


Just to play devil's advocate, she also said that Shepards who romanced Liara in ME1 and then romanced someone else in ME2 would have "some explaining to do" in LotSB... Which didn't really pan out into anything.
It could mean any number of vague things.


You didn't romance Tali right? I guess you missed the final dialogue where Liara asks about the real feelings of Shep for her... also what you expected from a 2-hours long Dlc? It's an awesome one, but it can't have the load of contents of a full game.

#143
Bamboozalist

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Elite Midget wrote...

Again, you're 'trying' to simplify things. This isn't a simple matter and it isn't so simple to say...

"Let's give this Shepard the bird conserning max Squaddie Size, gameplay balance, story progression, or the such and let's pamper this Shepard for keeping all the killables alive and loyal."

To you it might be but when your actions determine whether you alienate the majority of fans than you have to weigh in.

Appease the Casuals and those that are the truckload of revenue or appease the Local Minority that will never be pleased. Hard choice, huh?


Here is the problem. 
1. The majority of people, including casual fans, the hardcore, and professional reviewers want the team back so it's not a local minority.
2. Even the most casual speed run is coming out with ~6 people, gameplay wise that's fine, most of the ME2 squadmates overlaped so what are they missing out on? If they're in the squad it's banter that they probably never cared about and if they're NPCs then they're missing out on whatever important role that former squad member is currently doing, so the casual misses out on more content by making them not a squad member.

#144
Phaedon

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Elite Midget wrote...

Again, you're 'trying' to simplify things. This isn't a simple matter and it isn't so simple to say...

"Let's give this Shepard the bird conserning max Squaddie Size, gameplay balance, story progression, or the such and let's pamper this Shepard for keeping all the killables alive and loyal."

To you it might be but when your actions determine whether you alienate the majority of fans than you have to weigh in.

Appease the Casuals and those that are the truckload of revenue or appease the Local Minority that will never be pleased. Hard choice, huh?

You are turning the argument away from the technical stuff? Good move. Test any kind of program if you don't believe me (Even download Game Maker if you want), and you'll see that things are simplified because that's what variables do. Call the import flags switches if it makes you understand them better.

#145
darth_lopez

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Elite Midget wrote...

Umm... Yes it is. What you're asking is the very definition of more work, more resources, and more money being used that would be required to compensate every save type imagined for ME2 concerning Squaddies.



could you explain how when they already have copies of those squad mates available? infact they've already done it. Garrus and Tali. Carry overs from ME 1 obviously, and i doubt it took nearly as much resources as creating and adding kasumi, zaeed, Morinth/Sammarra, Grunt or Legion. given that each of these characters are optional and all can be avoided completely. You don't need to pick up Zaeed or kasumi Both of whom came with extra systems. don't pick samarra up avoid morinth, don't activate legion or grunt and together these 6 characters(potential characters that is) become more of a waste of resources than importing them to ME 3

Also the only other variables to track would be the results of the characters loyalty missions....which they've already done with the end of ME 2 at least interms of loyal or not loyal. So lets see exactly how many variables there are to track here.

section1
12 squadies - 1 variable each if dead/deactivated/avoided that 1 death means the negation of all other variables that affects that squadie, loyalty missions etc. are only relative if the squadie survives.

section2
Loyalty-another easy 12 true/false variables

section 3
Loyalty mission outcome(Paragon/Renegade choices)- another 12 variables.

so basically there are 36 maximum variables for imported squad mates.

if a character from section one is False, dead/deactivated/avoided it negates the other 2 check systems for that character. If true next check system.

if a character in section 2 is True character imported, False character left out content is lost. thus negating section 3 as the paragon/renegade outcome of the loyalty mission no longer matters...||| exceptionsTalis, Garrus, Thane, Legion, Mordin the reason being 4 of these could be major in ME 3 garrus's is just there because someone can actual die  in his  or make a better life-- no other ones are actually integral to ME storyline, even garrus's isn't integral to the story so perhaps that can be omitted as well.|||

Section 3, is simply a check to see how the it was handled and determine the ramifications However it's likely that this can be reduced to 3 or 4 important loyalty missions that can directly affect the games story. It's likely even if the character is dead/not activated that those missions will still have some effect on the story of ME 3.


So i don't understand how it's a waste of resources, how it will cost more resources or how there are too many variables. Considering there are likely already thousands of variables for combat, already along with paragon/renegade points.

doing this adds at max 36 more variables to the game and that's IF you used all squad members and got them all loyal. as i doubt logically squad members who aren't loyal would stay on board. And it makes considerable more sense to let go of non-loyal squaddies than to  just start an entirely brand new team after just coming out of the omega 4 relay with cereberus funding, at least a cereberus ship with a full/half/no crew of shipmates and an AI on board it would be kinda hard to retcon builiding a new crew/squad when it's more than likely players have at least half of them loyal.

Now there are a few characters who can be omitted from the list all together,
kasumi, Zaeed, Samara/morinth, Grunt, Thane, as 2 are mercenaries/thief 1 is dying and the other is a krogan-wrex like situation obviously goes back to tuchanka to help rebuild and forge a new krogan society a grander one- that's 4 of 5, now the 5th Samara/morinth is either a super just justicar or a fugitive on the run from asari police, not good to be hanging out with a spectre while disguised as her mother -.- for obvious reasons Samarra is only obliged to kill the collector threat not the reaper threat and will n doubt go off to stop injustices elsewhere as only jedi do.  So those 5 characters can be dropped before section1 check even.

the more and more you think about it the more variables this brings down 36-15 variables= 21 max if we remove the logically removable party members before checks in Section 1 (the reason for the subtraction is because they are removed simply by not writing them in and this can be justified by simply having a secondary codex entry about your crew and stating the reason why they left. so the variables no longer exist)

with that in mind the number seems even less daunting than the combat system. and maybe only twice the size of all the imported decisions from ME 1?


edit: At the begining when i was talkign about wasted resources you can add, thane/tali to the list i'm not sure if tali is necessary but thane is also optional liek samarra. and can be nothign but wasted resources.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 29 décembre 2010 - 07:33 .


#146
Kane-Corr

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Elite Midget wrote...

Does it matter? Bioware gave Tali Plot Armor after that. From than one she was the offscreen Geth Expert. Deal with it, she was more important in ME1 than anyone outsie of Miranada and Mordin were in ME2. The difference being that no one in ME2 got any Plot Armor thus they weren't important to the 'big picture' like Liara and VS must be since they 'do' have plot armor.





Uhhhh...am I missing something here...because everyone I talk to about Mass 1 says that Tali was pretty annoying, always yapping as if she were a walking codex. No character development, no drive to stay on the team....basically no ties to Saren. Think about it....Ash and Kaidan were Alliance....obvious ties there, Garrus...wants to hunt the man who shamed his race....Wrex, worked for Saren once, and Liara, her mother was working with Saren.


Tali was an afterthought in Mass 1. Sorry to be so blunt, but replay it. She is merely a child stowing away on your ship to complete her pilgrimage....she's really just along for the ride. Now, did I enjoy her company, yeah sure...she is an ally in my book, a friend. But....really?

#147
darth_lopez

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Kane-Corr wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Does it matter? Bioware gave Tali Plot Armor after that. From than one she was the offscreen Geth Expert. Deal with it, she was more important in ME1 than anyone outsie of Miranada and Mordin were in ME2. The difference being that no one in ME2 got any Plot Armor thus they weren't important to the 'big picture' like Liara and VS must be since they 'do' have plot armor.





Uhhhh...am I missing something here...because everyone I talk to about Mass 1 says that Tali was pretty annoying, always yapping as if she were a walking codex. No character development, no drive to stay on the team....basically no ties to Saren. Think about it....Ash and Kaidan were Alliance....obvious ties there, Garrus...wants to hunt the man who shamed his race....Wrex, worked for Saren once, and Liara, her mother was working with Saren.


Tali was an afterthought in Mass 1. Sorry to be so blunt, but replay it. She is merely a child stowing away on your ship to complete her pilgrimage....she's really just along for the ride. Now, did I enjoy her company, yeah sure...she is an ally in my book, a friend. But....really?


yeah i found her annoying until after i played ME 2. I refused to take her anywhere less i was a soldier and that was simply to maximize swag from bins...

Phaedon wrote...


This
isn't as simple as Alive or Dead or Loyal or Disloyal. You're trying to
simplify things into 4 variables and ignoring those that make that idea
un-plausiable.

How is it not? At the ending of ME1 you had to choose what to do with the Council. Only a single variable changed.


as
far as importing the characters it is. No one said you needed to make
the loyalty missions matter. so it is as simple as alive or dead , Loyal
or disloyal, it's after loyal or disloyal bioware has to make the
choice to add more content or to  let it go at which point they'd have
to do one more check: renegade or paragon resolution?

For the missions we're all concerned about Mordins, Talis, Legions it's likely it will already be considered and imported.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 29 décembre 2010 - 07:43 .


#148
darth_lopez

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edit tripple post sorry

Modifié par darth_lopez, 29 décembre 2010 - 07:43 .


#149
Kane-Corr

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Yeah, Mass 2 was better for Tali....but even then!





In Mass 2 Tali is throwing herself at you....she can't seem to control her hormonal urges. I mean, for real, this just shows she is STILL immature and a child. Great kid in my eyes....an original squadmate for me and the rest of the Mass 1 crew....they have a special place in my heart....but Tali....control yourself. Honestly it was like stepping on toes.





Tali is all like...."Yeah Shep how are you, I haven't seen you in two years!"



"Nice....whats up?"



"Uhhh...wow you look good Shepard....uh it's getting hot in here."



"Uh sorry Tali, I'm just not into you like that....er...sorry?"



-Tali enters depressive state, while initiating awkward stage with Shepard-



"Oh................ok, sorry.....Shepard."

#150
darth_lopez

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i've never declined tali, i just can't like the other options, jack is creepy, miranda is a ****....the only decent relationships so far are Garrus and Tali and that's just because it's cute, and garrus is hilarious -popping the heatsink lol- but we linger off topic