927 réponses à ce sujet

[Wittand25]

Bamboozalist wrote...
Here is the problem. 
1. The majority of people, including casual fans, the hardcore, and professional reviewers want the team back so it's not a local minority.
2. Even the most casual speed run is coming out with ~6 people, gameplay wise that's fine, most of the ME2 squadmates overlaped so what are they missing out on? If they're in the squad it's banter that they probably never cared about and if they're NPCs then they're missing out on whatever important role that former squad member is currently doing, so the casual misses out on more content by making them not a squad member.

1.) How do you know that most want the whole squad back? Most that I talked with would rather prefer a smaller more interactive team then the big team consisting of individuals living in their own isolated bubbles.
2.) With the exception of Miranda and her near perfect plot armor all the other squad-members can too easily die. It does not matter how many die because they can die and are dead in some safe games.

And all content is not equal. There is significant content like squad-members or main plot locations that is expensive to make. Limiting the availability of such content based on out of game choices , and every choice of ME2 is an out of game choice for ME3, is a waste of resources.
There is also content that while being not significant has a big emotional impact on the player, like romances or interaction with non party NPCs. That content takes far less resources to create and can be effectively used to make a player feel the impact of past decisions.

[Kane-Corr]

darth_lopez wrote...

i've never declined tali, i just can't like the other options, jack is creepy, miranda is a ****....the only decent relationships so far are Garrus and Tali and that's just because it's cute, and garrus is hilarious -popping the heatsink lol- but we linger off topic

If you came to understand Miranda and explore her relationship arc then you would totally agree with me when saying that Miranda is amazing.


By far more fleshed out then Tali. Truly a well developed character. You just have to search a little deeper.

Modifié par Kane-Corr, 29 décembre 2010 - 07:57 .

[Elite Midget]

Wittand25 wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...
Here is the problem. 
1. The majority of people, including casual fans, the hardcore, and professional reviewers want the team back so it's not a local minority.
2. Even the most casual speed run is coming out with ~6 people, gameplay wise that's fine, most of the ME2 squadmates overlaped so what are they missing out on? If they're in the squad it's banter that they probably never cared about and if they're NPCs then they're missing out on whatever important role that former squad member is currently doing, so the casual misses out on more content by making them not a squad member.

1.) How do you know that most want the whole squad back? Most that I talked with would rather prefer a smaller more interactive team then the big team consisting of individuals living in their own isolated bubbles.
2.) With the exception of Miranda and her near perfect plot armor all the other squad-members can too easily die. It does not matter how many die because they can die and are dead in some safe games.

And all content is not equal. There is significant content like squad-members or main plot locations that is expensive to make. Limiting the availability of such content based on out of game choices , and every choice of ME2 is an out of game choice for ME3, is a waste of resources.
There is also content that while being not significant has a big emotional impact on the player, like romances or interaction with non party NPCs. That content takes far less resources to create and can be effectively used to make a player feel the impact of past decisions.

You put what I was trying to say in much better words. Thank you.

[Pyrate_d]

Miranda is always the one who dies in the end mission for me, because I always take Jack's side in the argument. Only someone as repulsive as Miranda would minimize someone's childhood trauma, and then act like what they're doing is defensible.



As for returning squadmates, I'd feel enormously cheated if the major ones didn't return. ME3 needs to be about story, not recruitment.

[Bamboozalist]

Wittand25 wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...
Here is the problem. 
1. The majority of people, including casual fans, the hardcore, and professional reviewers want the team back so it's not a local minority.
2. Even the most casual speed run is coming out with ~6 people, gameplay wise that's fine, most of the ME2 squadmates overlaped so what are they missing out on? If they're in the squad it's banter that they probably never cared about and if they're NPCs then they're missing out on whatever important role that former squad member is currently doing, so the casual misses out on more content by making them not a squad member.

1.) How do you know that most want the whole squad back? Most that I talked with would rather prefer a smaller more interactive team then the big team consisting of individuals living in their own isolated bubbles.
2.) With the exception of Miranda and her near perfect plot armor all the other squad-members can too easily die. It does not matter how many die because they can die and are dead in some safe games.

And all content is not equal. There is significant content like squad-members or main plot locations that is expensive to make. Limiting the availability of such content based on out of game choices , and every choice of ME2 is an out of game choice for ME3, is a waste of resources.
There is also content that while being not significant has a big emotional impact on the player, like romances or interaction with non party NPCs. That content takes far less resources to create and can be effectively used to make a player feel the impact of past decisions.

1) Go to other forums, go out to conventions and actually talk to what elite claims are "casual" gamers, bother reading reviews and press conferences. Every notice how most ME3 interviews Bioware pretty much always gets asked if the team is coming back?
2) No, they can't you really have to set up a scenario where the majority of your squad dies. 84% of the squad survives on average according to Bioware that's 10 people out of 12 or 8-9 out of 10. So that means that assuming that each squad mate in ME3 has double the impact they had in ME1 we'll say 1 squad mate accounts for MAYBE 3% of total content in ME3. So the default average will be missing out on 6% of the total content. Sorry, that's not worth even complaining about, that's like saying there shoulding be rewards for 100% completion in sandbox games because most people never even get close to it.

[darth_lopez]

Elite Midget wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...
Here is the problem. 
1. The majority of people, including casual fans, the hardcore, and professional reviewers want the team back so it's not a local minority.
2. Even the most casual speed run is coming out with ~6 people, gameplay wise that's fine, most of the ME2 squadmates overlaped so what are they missing out on? If they're in the squad it's banter that they probably never cared about and if they're NPCs then they're missing out on whatever important role that former squad member is currently doing, so the casual misses out on more content by making them not a squad member.

1.) How do you know that most want the whole squad back? Most that I talked with would rather prefer a smaller more interactive team then the big team consisting of individuals living in their own isolated bubbles.
2.) With the exception of Miranda and her near perfect plot armor all the other squad-members can too easily die. It does not matter how many die because they can die and are dead in some safe games.

And all content is not equal. There is significant content like squad-members or main plot locations that is expensive to make. Limiting the availability of such content based on out of game choices , and every choice of ME2 is an out of game choice for ME3, is a waste of resources.
There is also content that while being not significant has a big emotional impact on the player, like romances or interaction with non party NPCs. That content takes far less resources to create and can be effectively used to make a player feel the impact of past decisions.

You put what I was trying to say in much better words. Thank you.

while you're potentially correct on point 1) you seem to be missing something very vital here.

The majority ofthe over arching ME story development is done through the characters of ME 2 particularly their loyalty missions Tali, Legion and Mordin are the only ones with truly important loyalty mission content everything else is good for cut, and it's likely that the fore mentioned loyalty missions will already be  imported as part of ME 3s story... So no not all content is equal however in this case the important content is tied to 3 characters at least making it realtively easy to actually tag the characters affected by it on to ME 3 with no fuss.

it obviously wasn't a waste of resources to make ~6 optional characters right? and 9 optional loyalty missions that don't affect the overarching ME story? if characters weren't imported in ME 3 based off of loyalty and survival it would be a much larger waste of resources if your talking about constructing non-utilized content. and as i've said a few times now the 3 big important loyalty missions will most likely be involved in ME 3 already if you aren't talking about content utilization and just content anything that imporves gameplay and immersion for the consumer isn't a waste it's well utilized.

you're also not trackign every choice, you're tracking a maximum of 36 choices. a maximum 24 of which are events.

as far as your argument about emotional content, i say they did a fine enough job with the mthod employed in ME 2 in regards to the questions :did you save kaiden or Ashley, did you romance liara or ashley or kaiden?

and it's easy to say that if a romance died, there will likely be a second picture sitting next to the one in your room of your ME 1 romance. i mean after killing and rommancing ashely about 5 times i haven't been bother by the lack of "OMG Ashley is dead T-T" sad moments in ME 2. any bad feelings you exeperience upon the death of your LI in ME 2 are for you to face when it happens, not to linger shepard can moarn once the reapers are dead. as far as conflict between LIs well i could do with ou drama on my normandy or a shadow broker trying to kill me for once in this game i'd actually like to see a relationship continue past the credits, i'm sure i'm not alone on this.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 29 décembre 2010 - 08:39 .

[Ulzeraj]

As much as I love "character-centric plots", having all of the ME2 team on ME3 would ruin the game. Same equals boring. Around 3 of ME1 3 new faces with 4-6 optional survivors of ME2.



Just dont **** with bro team if they're still alive (Tali and Garrus). They've came all the way through the game that if you put them as npcs (like Wrex) it would be so disappointing. They're like the Duncan Idaho(this guy survived 6 Dune books) of Mass Effect.

[sympathy4saren]

The squad returning might play into the 1,000 different variables we are promised.

[Phaedon]

I don't understand why you think that the fact that the content is 'optional' is a bad thing. It's a form of punishment, you should have been more careful throughout the game.

[Kane-Corr]

These are the people I want from Mass 2:



Miranda<3, Garrus, Tali, Grunt, Thane,



From Mass 1: Liara, Ash





Wrex's role is too important for him to be a squadmate again.....and I'd be willing to take some new folks as well.





But honestly, Miranda will probably be the most likely to return....or any of the love interests for that matter. BUT, I see Miranda holding a more important position than the rest. Plus, Bioware has seemingly heavily invested their time and efforts into her, a little more than the other characters.

[darth_lopez]

Phaedon wrote...

I don't understand why you think that the fact that the content is 'optional' is a bad thing. It's a form of punishment, you should have been more careful throughout the game.

exactly, i hope my stance has been clear on this, it certaintly is feesible and it certaintly would be whats best to the story

someone sugessted 3 newfaces and 6 or so optional survivors from ME 2. Perfect idea, fits with a few things i've said already and it's totally feesible and much easier than creating 6-7 brand new characters from scratch.

But honestly, Miranda will probably be the most likely to return....or
any of the love interests for that matter. BUT, I see Miranda holding a
more important position than the rest. Plus, Bioware has seemingly
heavily invested their time and efforts into her, a little more than the
other characters.

honestly Kane, i'd say Tali and Legion Miranda are the most likely to return, BUT i can't really say why but all in relation to tali and legions loyalty missions, and the results of talis not soley the LI part, and Miranda being a cerberus Cell leader, that's a foot in the door, garrus has been established as sheps Best friend hasn't he? he's a shoe in there if what i've heard is true. Mordin is a 25% 75%, he's likely to be there but not a necessity :/ which makes me sad cause i want that to be a 100% mordin is back also due to loyalty mission results.. most the others are expendable. from the story and logical point of view everyone elses loyalty mission seems to dead end, except thanes that could have political reprucussions too as coudl kasumis when i think about it a bit mroe deeply so that might be hold overs, but yeah Samara, Wrex Jr., Jacob, Zaeed all have dead end loyalty quests unfortunately. 

Modifié par darth_lopez, 29 décembre 2010 - 09:43 .

[Phaedon]

I am not so sure about this '6 optional survivors' thing. I don't want some characters left out because the community doesn't like them that much.

[darth_lopez]

well think about what i said earlier,

logically we can rid ourselves of Kasumi and zaeed (They were hired by cerberus for 1 mission not 2 and/or they both need to persue the own interests from their loyalty missions) Samara is a jedi and likely has more jedi business to attend to, Morinth is a fugitive bot of them would likly go their seperate ways. Grunt no longer needs to stay with you like wrex, and Thane has health complications..
that's about half the party which leaves 6-7 'optional' choices left pending on their loyalty and survival that is.

which is certantly do-able resource wise

Modifié par darth_lopez, 29 décembre 2010 - 09:49 .

[Phaedon]

Yeah, doesn't sound too bad, but cameos would be welcome for these characters.

[darth_lopez]

oh of course cameos are always welcomed.

but resource wise it's do-able story wise it's nigh perfect execution. at least interms of importing party members.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 29 décembre 2010 - 09:50 .

[Phaedon]

Sure yeah, but that might cause a problem if your only survivors are the ones that will be cameos. We'll see, though, hopefully we'll get an update on this subject soon.

[darth_lopez]

well they did say ME 3 would be harder the less people who survived

[Wittand25]

darth_lopez wrote...
while you're potentially correct on point 1) you seem to be missing something very vital here.

The majority ofthe over arching ME story development is done through the characters of ME 2 particularly their loyalty missions Tali, Legion and Mordin are the only ones with truly important loyalty mission content everything else is good for cut, and it's likely that the fore mentioned loyalty missions will already be  imported as part of ME 3s story... So no not all content is equal however in this case the important content is tied to 3 characters at least making it realtively easy to actually tag the characters affected by it on to ME 3 with no fuss.

it obviously wasn't a waste of resources to make ~6 optional characters right? and 9 optional loyalty missions that don't affect the overarching ME story? if characters weren't imported in ME 3 based off of loyalty and survival it would be a much larger waste of resources if your talking about constructing non-utilized content. and as i've said a few times now the 3 big important loyalty missions will most likely be involved in ME 3 already if you aren't talking about content utilization and just content anything that imporves gameplay and immersion for the consumer isn't a waste it's well utilized.

you're also not trackign every choice, you're tracking a maximum of 36 choices. a maximum 24 of which are events.

as far as your argument about emotional content, i say they did a fine enough job with the mthod employed in ME 2 in regards to the questions :did you save kaiden or Ashley, did you romance liara or ashley or kaiden?

and it's easy to say that if a romance died, there will likely be a second picture sitting next to the one in your room of your ME 1 romance. i mean after killing and rommancing ashely about 5 times i haven't been bother by the lack of "OMG Ashley is dead T-T" sad moments in ME 2. any bad feelings you exeperience upon the death of your LI in ME 2 are for you to face when it happens, not to linger shepard can moarn once the reapers are dead. as far as conflict between LIs well i could do with ou drama on my normandy or a shadow broker trying to kill me for once in this game i'd actually like to see a relationship continue past the credits, i'm sure i'm not alone on this.

Every character was optional within ME2. Not a single of them depended on being recruited in ME1. Garrus still joined if you skipped him in ME1. ME2 characters in ME3 on the other hand would depend on your decisions in ME2 because your decisions in ME2 can get them killed. And that is the big difference. Optional content, like say female Sheppard, which can be experienced by simply starting another play-through is completely fine but significant content that requires you to spend dozens of hours playing another game is not.
It is impossible to kill and romance Ashly simultaneously her romance only happens after Virmire and if you kill her without romance you get the same as everyone else who killed her at the crash site. Practically every Bioware romance lasted past the credits so I would not be to worried that any romance in ME1 or 2 will end against the players wishes before the credits of ME3. But having the romances continue does not require the NPC in question to remain a squad-member.

[LogosDiablo]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

What i honestly see hapenning with ME3 is, your squadmates die, you lose content. I personally have absolutely no problem with this.

This.

[Lvl20DM]

Bioware like creating new characters, particularly squad-mates, and using them as a way to advance the story and explore the universe they've created. It's not just the nightmare of parsing the variables; the devs like introducing new characters. It wouldn't surprise me to see some characters return. Ash/Kaidan make sense, as could Liara (though I like the idea of her assuming the role of the SB full time). Legion is a possibility because of the collective nature of Geth.

The Squad in ME 2 is recruited to fight the Collectors - that is accomplished at the end of the game. I'm actually hoping for a smaller number of squadmates that interact with Shep and one another a bit more.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Phaedon wrote...

I am not so sure about this '6 optional survivors' thing. I don't want some characters left out because the community doesn't like them that much.

Personally I think other than the obvious 2 we'll get right at the start of the game as we have the last 2 games, I think all squad should be optional but obviously us requiring a certain minimal number as we have in the last 2 games.

It's worked well so far, so why change it?

Me, personally.... for my shep who only came out of the Suicide Mission with just Zaeed, Kasumi and Joker alive, everyone else dead. I sure would want it to be downright hard as nails for that Shep to come out of ME3 alive. In fact I'll be blunt and say downright impossible.

I didn't do it because I don't 'care' about the squadmates, hell I've got 3 Sheps already that have a 'perfect' count and got another lined up for PS3. The rest of my Sheps have a mixture of deaths ranging from 1 death to about 1/2 to 3/4 of the squad. I just like to see what consequences can be thrown at me for screwing things up. After all, this is a game with choices and it is nice to see as many of those choices as possible rather than the same thing over... and over... and over... and over..... again.

*yawn* don't get me wrong, I know people like that, it just ain't my cup of tea. I like to see differences in playthroughs... all the variables I can manage.

Edit: As for new squaddies, I reckon if anything it'll be a few at most and we'll have possibly met at least one of them in the previous games.

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 29 décembre 2010 - 11:12 .

[Volband]

Wittand25 wrote...
Every character was optional within ME2. Not a single of them depended on being recruited in ME1. Garrus still joined if you skipped him in ME1. ME2 characters in ME3 on the other hand would depend on your decisions in ME2 because your decisions in ME2 can get them killed. And that is the big difference. Optional content, like say female Sheppard, which can be experienced by simply starting another play-through is completely fine but significant content that requires you to spend dozens of hours playing another game is not.

And your point is...?

Let's say there will be 6 squad members from ME2, whom if we kept alive, will return as squad mates in the third game.

Let's say you'll get the VS as a squad mate, no matter what.

Let's say you can hire four new squad mates in ME3.

Now let's count:
1.You are importing a save from ME2, with all your squaddies survived. In ME3 you'll have 11 squad mates eventually. Hoorraaay, "good leaders" are awarded!
2. You are importing a save game from ME2, with only two of your squaddies alive, and those two are not in the choosen six, that can appear as squad mates in the third game. So worst case scenario, you'll only have five (4 new in ME3 + VS) squad mates. If you didn't recruit Wrex\\\\\\\\Garrus in ME1, you'd only have 5 squad members. Problem? You are a bit punished, for being totally icompetent in the game, but you can still enjoy the thrid game.
3. You are a new player, so let's say you are given two people from the choosen six from ME2, plus the others = 7. A new player can't have all the goodies, but shouldn't be punished for something he didn't even do. So it's the golden middle. 

Quite fair, I must say. Although this system would be the best if all ME2 squaddies could be in the third game, because if not, we'll have to get two new squad members at the beginning of the third game, which would be really bad... "o hey commander! im bob, and my friend is tom. I'm a biotic and my friend is a technician. We were sleeping in the carge hold!!!" [except if there will be a VS DLC, which adds the VS as a squad member, who'll be there with us from the beginning]

Also, who thinks we'll have a Spectre squaddie? Would be really cooooool. 

Edit: Oh, and what about LIs? One of the few things confirmed for the thrid game is that, if we cheated on them, it will have a consequences. Do we really want our LIs to be cameos? Let's say Tali will have a cameo as an Admiral. Will it be like this? : "Hi Shepard! Yeah, I will speak on your behalf, to join forces with you. And btw **** you, for cheating on me!" conversation ends. Yeah, what a consequence would it be!!! 

Modifié par Volband, 29 décembre 2010 - 11:21 .

[Wittand25]

Volband wrote...
And your point is...?

Let's say there will be 6 squad members from ME2, whom if we kept alive, will return as squad mates in the third game.

Let's say you'll get the VS as a squad mate, no matter what.

Let's say you can hire four new squad mates in ME3.

Now let's count:
1.You are importing a save from ME2, with all your squaddies survived. In ME3 you'll have 11 squad mates eventually. Hoorraaay, "good leaders" are awarded!
2. You are importing a save game from ME2, with only two of your squaddies alive, and those two are not in the choosen six, that can appear as squad mates in the third game. So worst case scenario, you'll only have five (4 new in ME3 + VS) squad mates. If you didn't recruit Wrex\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\Garrus in ME1, you'd only have 5 squad members. Problem? You are a bit punished, for being totally icompetent in the game, but you can still enjoy the thrid game.
3. You are a new player, so let's say you are given two people from the choosen six from ME2, plus the others = 7. A new player can't have all the goodies, but shouldn't be punished for something he didn't even do. So it's the golden middle. 

Quite fair, I must say. Although this system would be the best if all ME2 squaddies could be in the third game, because if not, we'll have to get two new squad members at the beginning of the third game, which would be really bad... "o hey commander! im bob, and my friend is tom. I'm a biotic and my friend is a technician. We were sleeping in the carge hold!!!" [except if there will be a VS DLC, which adds the VS as a squad member, who'll be there with us from the beginning]

Also, who thinks we'll have a Spectre squaddie? Would be really cooooool. 

Edit: Oh, and what about LIs? One of the few things confirmed for the thrid game is that, if we cheated on them, it will have a consequences. Do we really want our LIs to be cameos? Let's say Tali will have a cameo as an Admiral. Will it be like this? : "Hi Shepard! Yeah, I will speak on your behalf, to join forces with you. And btw **** you, for cheating on me!" conversation ends. Yeah, what a consequence would it be!!! 

My point is that allowing all squad-members to return would require Bioware to create lots of content that many players do not have access to.Have the default safe an everybody survives scenario and making ME2 a totally pointless exercise because everyone who did not bother to play it gets a better starting position than most who import.

Your suggestion is not the golden middle. That is the worst of both worlds.Bioware still has a lot of unnecessary work, some character fans still get screwed and most players are not able to enjoy the full game.

And the consequences for your romance does not require them to rejoin the party as example see LotSB or Witch Hunt. Both DLCs offer continuation of former romances but in both chases the former LI does not join your team permanently.

[Volband]

I meant the golden middle for the option which totally new players begin with.

And why pleasing the commited players unnecessary work? Just because you personally find the team of ME2 expandable (or just simply don't like most of them), doesn't mean the others, who got to befriend with them (or with some of them) can't enjoy the fruit of surviving the SM with them.

I see the logic behind your concern, and it's evident that it's not the most cost-effective solution, but it doesn't mean they can't or won't do it. I think many of us would be offended if we'll get a whole new squad for the third game. That would be a guddamn punch in the face, that after voyaging through the galaxy for the best of the bests we get X new members from nothing who happens to be the best of the best of the... (it's obvious that we can't have amateurs for this mission). Yeah, and they slipper through TIMs web when he assembled our team in ME2. Yeah. Maybe a wizard did it...

Also, writing a LotSB-like epic mission pack for six possible LIs sounds more unreasonable, than having them on the ship and arguing some about our relationship. In the latter, if she/he died on the SM, you lose some dialogue. In the former, you lose well-built missions.

Modifié par Volband, 30 décembre 2010 - 12:01 .