78 réponses à ce sujet

[kmcd5722]

Ulzeraj wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

While I agree ME1 didn't offer some actual exploration, it still did something. One thing I truly missed in ME2 is the feeling of being in space, of being in a galaxy so huge and mysterious where you feel there is always something incredible waiting to be known somewhere. Nothing caught me more than standing on the top of a mountain and staring at a red giant star shining peacefully on an uncharted planet in ME1, especially the first time through. It was beyond gorgeous.

Even if we weren't actually exploring in ME1's sidequests, there was still a noticeable sense of exploration. You still felt like you were looking for something while enjoying the view around you, no matter how dead the planet on which you happen to be looks.

Incidentally, I have no idea if I'm the only one who liked the idea of uncharted planets (that is, empty planets). The reason I liked it is because it conveys the reality of the worlds out there. Current studies in astronomy and planetary science indicate that an awful lot of planets / moons are just that; seemingly lifeless lands with nothing that catches attention. We also know our own Solar System's worlds are like that, save Earth.

Agreed. Couldnt express better.

I too shall add my voice in agreement.  I loved the truly uncharted worlds with nothing on them that offered some beautiful sky vistas, as well as adding to the feeling of being totally in awe of the vast expanse of space.  I think BW overreacted to the "copy/paste" environments from ME1, and forgot how in reality, they did not need to be entirely dropped, just add a few fleshed out environments to spice things up.

I just hope BW decides to bring back some non-linear exploration where appropriate on uncharted worlds.  Exploration has to be its own reward, discovering something otherwise unpredicted each time, not simply mummified salarians.

Modifié par kmcd5722, 30 décembre 2010 - 10:05 .

[xxLDZxx]

I love both and i hope they take both metots and combine theme. you can scan the planet first to find place with many resurces or a anomaly, and than you get dropt off and have to search for it.

So you cude land on a planet twice or more times in difrent locations.in the montains wher you have to go on foot or fly wth the shuttel in a plain with the mako mk 2 or hammerhead. that what i woude like to see.



I dont understand why ppl dont like the mako i loved it had 0%problems with it.



Some one has writen that that driving like a turist? ehm open the map and you find all points of interest, you have to persum that some one has made scan of the planet and you are there wher the inersting stuff is.

[Rapamaha]

what exploration for me means is that there are places I can go but I dont know beforehand what lays in there, in ME1 this basically ment driving around and looking for mineral deposits + the debris/artifacts on the planets, it wasnt that interesting tbh but bioware sure could evolve something from this idea, someone might say that looking for N7 missions on the galaxy map would be the same but for me it felt more like farming anomalitys rather than exploring

[slimgrin]

I don't think Bioware has ever done good exploration, to be honest. Never been a strong point of theirs.

I would, however, cite the hub worlds in ME1 as a solid example of good level design. Hopefully they can bring that back for ME3.

Modifié par slimgrin, 30 décembre 2010 - 10:52 .

[TelexFerra]

Basic colony world that only has a small settlement until Shepard does some missions for them, causing the colony to grow. That would be cool.

[Schneidend]

TelexFerra wrote...

Basic colony world that only has a small settlement until Shepard does some missions for them, causing the colony to grow. That would be cool.

This actually would be quite awesome.

[TelexFerra]

Some Batarian slavers in the hills bothering the colonists? Shepard can get in her Hammerhead/Mako and deal with them.

The colonists need a site for a new shop, how about right where Shepard thinks is best?

The colony needs some automated defense systems, maybe Shepard can collect the resources?

[BiancoAngelo7]

xxLDZxx wrote...

I love both and i hope they take both metots and combine theme. you can scan the planet first to find place with many resurces or a anomaly, and than you get dropt off and have to search for it.
So you cude land on a planet twice or more times in difrent locations.in the montains wher you have to go on foot or fly wth the shuttel in a plain with the mako mk 2 or hammerhead. that what i woude like to see.

I dont understand why ppl dont like the mako i loved it had 0%problems with it.

Some one has writen that that driving like a turist? ehm open the map and you find all points of interest, you have to persum that some one has made scan of the planet and you are there wher the inersting stuff is.

Personally this sounds good.

And I totally agree with you, I loved the Mako. Sure it could get you stuck in some parts if you treated it like the invincible climbing machine, but it was just part of its charm and fun.

I mean, you can't tell me that climbing up a mountain in an epic stoic manner while the meteor shower rages above and the blue giant star slowly comes into view, dominating the vista you didnt feel like the most amazing badazz space explorer in the galaxy.

And don't tell me that after all that epic stoic immersion, you didnt feel like a happy little kid throttling and activating thrusters off the top of the mountain and turning your Mako into a bouncy ball :happy:

And yeah I also agree with the other user that says that Bioware over reacted to the whole "copy paste" environments outcry. People basically complained about something because it was awesome but not as refined as it could have been. And instead of improving and building upon it, they just removed it completely.

If that's not the definition of knee jerk reaction, I don't know what is.

[matt-bassist]

I would like a combination of both ME1 and ME2 exploration. In other words, we *land* on a strange new planet and then, using the Hammerhead/Mako/New Vehicle, explore it. The difference being, each world is unique like in ME2, with unique buildings, structures, landscapes and an ultimate goal (such as discovering that a band of mercs actually have a Prothean beacon; which can tie in with the plot).

I think the problem with ME2 is they went ALL the way to the other side of the spectrum with regards to exploration. ME1 was wide, open, desolate and quite dull outside of the main missions, but it felt like you had a sense of complete freedom. ME2 was tiny, close-quarters but very interesting and all the locations were unique, however because each location was so small, you felt no sense of freedom.

[SithLordExarKun]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

@Schneidend

Go play ME1 again. just do yourself the favor. Go relive all the ambushes, warlords, geth invasions, drug dealers, biotic terrorists, batarian extremists, asteroids falling into planets, fauna and wildlife, prothean ruins, squad banter, mines, vengeful failed terrorists, cerberus cells, thorian infested colonies, soldier bases under attack by the rachni *takes a breath* AND rogue VI's, out of control terran training bases, pirate outposts, turret and sniper fortified bases, mummified salarians, minerals, THRESHER MAWS, medallions, turian insignias, Asari records and last but not least, random loot drops through debris.

Then come back to me and tell me that hopping on one platform to another with the hammerhead is just SO COOoooool. Or that taking you shuttle to one of the ten "N7" missions with your squad on a planet that is just right for them to be safe while wearing their spandex (gasp what a shock...I wonder what we would do if a mission were on a volcano world? <_<) is soooo much more interesting than doing any of the things we did in ME1.

In ME1, we had great, great side quests as far as plot, feeling of immersion and graphics with the skyboxes and galaxy map.

In ME2, instead of building upon and refining these experiences, they cut them out entirely and replaced them with 120 second long "N7" missions.

Just think about that and tell me that you don't see anything wrong with that picture.


We all need to do ourselves a favor and look past the entertaining game that was ME2 and realize that we went from this in ME1:









To this in ME2:




file:///C:/Users/Angel/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.pngfile:///C:/Users/Angel/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-3.png


Great. <_<

It is a sad sad fact, but one that we must face if we are to even HOPE that the devs realize what kind of a huge mistake/omission they made by gutting planet exploration and fix it for ME3.

All I know is that I have bought all the DLC's and played through ME2 in its entirety, and so far, I have not seen a single star, meteor shower, binary stars, NOTHING.

Before ME2 came out, I was expecting to be able to visit worlds where I would see all sorts of stuff in the sky like pulsars, quasars, black holes meteor showers you name it!

Instead the most beautiful map/skybox combo we get is when you go to the Normandy crash site.

There's something wrong with that fact....

Not to mention that it kills immersion, makes you wonder what they did to their graphics department and what kind of prospects there are for ME3.


When you play a game that came out a few years before the sequel and find yourself saying "oh yeah...this is so much better than in the sequel..." that's the red flag that lets you know something is wrong.


Edit: Not to mention the little things like in ME2 we get a ridiculous toy ship so Joker can apparently take up tap dancing, while in ME1 we had an amazingly beautiful and elegant and quick cut scene that was TRULY an interactive fleshed out loading screen of the Normandy in FTL speed to travel between systems.

Little things like that, spoke volumes about the drop in overall attention to detail and quality in exploration and immersion for ME2.

You know the UNC missions in ME1 would have been 10x better had it not involved storming into the same mine, pirate base etc etc almost everytime. I will admit that The UNC's are much better integrated into the game than the silent N7 missions, but driving around most of the UNC planets felt boring after a while.

If this is the exploration every one thinks its good then i say much more should be improved like random events and things to actually do on the planet rather than find a corpse, loot it or storm the base.

[glacier1701]

 While many good points have been made about what exploration is one main feature that I would say defines exploration or more to the point what makes it exploration is 'I am the first to step here!!'  In ME1 that did seem to come across more whereas in ME2 someone (in most cases a probe) had already been there.  Yet within the ME universe there are quite simply many avenues that can be explored to give you that 'I am the first here'. There are inactive gates, system clusters which have NOT yet been probed even though the nearby gate is open or just plain out of range but can be reached by improved tech. Was there a place in ME2 that had NOT had someone be there first? It was that fact that you were always in 'known' space that diminished the sense of exploration and the way the missions given seemed to play up that fact that someone else was there already.

[james1976]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

@Schneidend

Go play ME1 again. just do yourself the favor. Go relive all the ambushes, warlords, geth invasions, drug dealers, biotic terrorists, batarian extremists, asteroids falling into planets, fauna and wildlife, prothean ruins, squad banter, mines, vengeful failed terrorists, cerberus cells, thorian infested colonies, soldier bases under attack by the rachni *takes a breath* AND rogue VI's, out of control terran training bases, pirate outposts, turret and sniper fortified bases, mummified salarians, minerals, THRESHER MAWS, medallions, turian insignias, Asari records and last but not least, random loot drops through debris.

Then come back to me and tell me that hopping on one platform to another with the hammerhead is just SO COOoooool. Or that taking you shuttle to one of the ten "N7" missions with your squad on a planet that is just right for them to be safe while wearing their spandex (gasp what a shock...I wonder what we would do if a mission were on a volcano world? <_<) is soooo much more interesting than doing any of the things we did in ME1.

In ME1, we had great, great side quests as far as plot, feeling of immersion and graphics with the skyboxes and galaxy map.

In ME2, instead of building upon and refining these experiences, they cut them out entirely and replaced them with 120 second long "N7" missions.

Just think about that and tell me that you don't see anything wrong with that picture.


We all need to do ourselves a favor and look past the entertaining game that was ME2 and realize that we went from this in ME1:









To this in ME2:




file:///C:/Users/Angel/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.pngfile:///C:/Users/Angel/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-3.png


Great. <_<

It is a sad sad fact, but one that we must face if we are to even HOPE that the devs realize what kind of a huge mistake/omission they made by gutting planet exploration and fix it for ME3.

All I know is that I have bought all the DLC's and played through ME2 in its entirety, and so far, I have not seen a single star, meteor shower, binary stars, NOTHING.

Before ME2 came out, I was expecting to be able to visit worlds where I would see all sorts of stuff in the sky like pulsars, quasars, black holes meteor showers you name it!

Instead the most beautiful map/skybox combo we get is when you go to the Normandy crash site.

There's something wrong with that fact....

Not to mention that it kills immersion, makes you wonder what they did to their graphics department and what kind of prospects there are for ME3.


When you play a game that came out a few years before the sequel and find yourself saying "oh yeah...this is so much better than in the sequel..." that's the red flag that lets you know something is wrong.


Edit: Not to mention the little things like in ME2 we get a ridiculous toy ship so Joker can apparently take up tap dancing, while in ME1 we had an amazingly beautiful and elegant and quick cut scene that was TRULY an interactive fleshed out loading screen of the Normandy in FTL speed to travel between systems.

Little things like that, spoke volumes about the drop in overall attention to detail and quality in exploration and immersion for ME2.

THIS TO THE LETTER!  While I enjoy the ME2 game itself, this right here was another disappointment when I imported my character from ME1 and continued with the Shepard story.  I get into a position to explore the galaxy in the new game and find it less of an experience than the first game.

[Aurica]

I think we are expecting too much for exploration.  Bear in mind that Mass Effect's scale is on the galaxy itself and not just confined to a planet or continent like fantasy RPGs.  So there is a limit on how much exploration can be done planetside. 

For ME1, they limit it to the area which I'm guessing had some annomalies picked up by Normandy SR-1's sensors.  There are many things I like about ME1's planet exploration but also equally same amount of stuff I dislike about it.

Cons
1. Copy-paste, recolored planets.  There is no theme to most planets and no special land-marks. 

2. The bases, exterior and interior are also the same.  I guess I'm partially ok with them because I can accept the fact the original inhabitants could be plonking down pre-fab structures.

3. Large empty space.  This really gets to me.

4. Ridiculously steep cliffs with a mineral node just right behind it. 

Pros
1. Discovering something on the planet.  Ambush beacons what not.  And accidentally driving into wrong place.  Seeing a Thresher maw surge from the ground suddenly.  WHOAH!!!

I personally like the ME2 streamlined approach.  But I felt that they went overboard and cut out certain stuff excessively.  They could retain some of the stuff that worked in ME1 or fine-tuned it to give each planet more depth.  But perhaps due to time constrains we ended up having what we see in ME2.   The Overlord DLC seems like a vast improvement on exploration and in keeping to the theme. 
I can only hope we will see this as a norm for planetary exploration in ME3.

[Matt VT Schlo]

I think that if we take the Mass Effect 2 style and combine that with some vehicle driven element, that would help the feel of exploration.....given that you had N7 missions to discover in Mass Effect 2 was pretty good, but I did miss the Mako a bit. If you take like 14 N7 type missions for ME3 and made this open, diverse and with a vehicle element, that would rock

[Ragnarok521]

Aurica, to your cons:

1. No theme? What do you mean?

2. I was thinking pre-fab structures as well. Makes sense, as most of the worlds are uninhabited and they'd use pre-fabs for temporary bases or first settlements.

3. That's the reality of many planets. Take Mars for instance.

4. Oh yeah, I can sympathize with you. That's just a bother.

Modifié par Ragnarok521, 01 janvier 2011 - 12:56 .

[Aurica]

@]Ragnarok521

What I mean is most of the planets we land on in ME1 is pretty empty or barren.  Either you get terrestial like planets covered in ice, grass, desert like, luna-like or rocks hued in red, brown, purplish or volcanic.  Most of them look more or less the same by the time you explore all of them near the end of the game.

I get the fact that some of them ARE supposed to be barren planets.  An entire planet is a lot of ground to cover and it doesn't make sense for us to drop the MAKO at a place that has nothing.  So it makes sense that we are being dropped at the part of planet that may have something that was picked up by the sensors or had something interesting. 

What I'm saying is, we take a look at some of the side missions in ME2.  The landscape itself is generally more varied with each mission more or less having its own theme and feel for it.  So instead of an empty barren land, we could have a more themed landscape to drive the MAKO in and of course throw in some surprises while we are ground-side as well.

[Ragnarok521]

Aurica wrote...

@]Ragnarok521

What I mean is most of the planets we land on in ME1 is pretty empty or barren.  Either you get terrestial like planets covered in ice, grass, desert like, luna-like or rocks hued in red, brown, purplish or volcanic.  Most of them look more or less the same by the time you explore all of them near the end of the game.

I get the fact that some of them ARE supposed to be barren planets.  An entire planet is a lot of ground to cover and it doesn't make sense for us to drop the MAKO at a place that has nothing.  So it makes sense that we are being dropped at the part of planet that may have something that was picked up by the sensors or had something interesting. 

What I'm saying is, we take a look at some of the side missions in ME2.  The landscape itself is generally more varied with each mission more or less having its own theme and feel for it.  So instead of an empty barren land, we could have a more themed landscape to drive the MAKO in and of course throw in some surprises while we are ground-side as well.

Hm. In ME2 you only see very (and I mean *very*) small areas of the planet while in ME1 you'd get a region. The more I think about it the more it seems that Overlord got it right. The places you explore on a planet makes one big region overall but is broken down into areas with a large overworld that connects them all. The overworld is generally much more open and allows for free-roaming while the areas which have a more focused destination and have a specific theme or motif. That allows for scale, vast views of the landscape, but still allow the room for details and landmarks that help reinforce a theme present themself. Areas each have their own theme but they build upon what's present in the overworld so it's unique but still recognizable as part of the region you landed in.

In short, I think the Overlord system provides the best of both. Just needs a better vehicle to explore in. And an option to get out of said vehicle.

Modifié par Ragnarok521, 01 janvier 2011 - 01:45 .

[WilliamShatner]

Mass Effect pisses on ME2 easily.



But I was really hoping for improvements in ME2.



What I was hoping for in ME2 was that "improved exploration2" meant that planets would have mini-hubs that would have characters, shops and a quest or two and truly allow us to seek out new lifeforms and new civilisations. And of course they would keep the barren planets because that would be realistic. Not every planet you go to is going to be colonised.



But nah, BioWare thought time was better spent "improving" combat and ass physics.

[Nightwriter]

Well... personally, what makes exploration the most enjoyable to me is being able to talk about what you've explored to other people.

For instance, in ME1 I dearly hoped that after finding all the League of One medallions, Dilinaga writings, and turian insignias, I would be contacted by museums and collectors who were delighted that I'd found rare, lost artifacts they'd been searching for for years, and a small quest would be unlocked. Selling or donating the artifacts to prestigious museums belonging to the Council races could even have increased the Alliance's political standing.

[sodstalker]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...
This is all true, also:




Edit:

Conclusion: Main point is, instead of build upon and embrace the amazing graphical spectacles we were treated to in ME1, instead of expand upon and improve planet exploration like they promised, instead of  increasing immersion, instead of giving us more options...they chose not to.

I did all the side quests and explored each planet when ME first came out. It was a completely miserable experience; a time-sink rivaled in pain only by planet scanning. The MAKO handled horribly, there was little actual variety in what was performed on planet, and to top it all off any side quests engaged on planet were vacuous.

ME2 gave us a planet scanning atrocity but succeeded in intriguing and solid side quests that had some variety and were more memorable (stopping a missile launch with a 5 minute timer, for example).

ETA: The exploration in BG and BG2 is a good example of finding lots of intriguing stuff either in the middle of nowhere (BG) or in densely populated areas (BG2).

Modifié par sodstalker, 01 janvier 2011 - 08:23 .

[The_11thDoctor]

Both were horrible with it. Exploration: Think Infamous. Its a open world, go whereever you want and maybe you find shards to collect, maybe you look on top of buildings, maybe you stay on the streets, maybe you go across a bridge and look at another island etc. Their world was FULL with stuff going on and things to do. At least have Uncharted 2 exploration levels if you cant do that! I know they are exploring worlds, or was in ME1, but with nothing on them. If they had diverse creatures and plants everywhere, some places as populated as the Citidel looks outside with flying cars city lights, people walking around talking etc. That's good, but the worlds you go to should all be that populated unless hazardous. Match the concept art! Omega was decently in the right direction, but not quite there. If the had opened up omega where you could be everywhere and visit the rest of the city like in the books etc. You should be able to take a wrong turn and find something cool, get sidetracked, then go back to doing the mission. Like imagine going through the world of infamous then going to look for Arias club, but on the way you find a Blue Suns hideout or a hotel or some houses you could rent, go to a bar, a tv station and star in a eps to air on tv later in the game if you sidetrack yourself before going into Aria's club etc. A mission where you ride a Threasher Maul and have a battle with someone on a opposing one etc. How about exploring planets and space stations? How about a REAL space ship battle where you use your ship Skies of Arcadia style or something? Anything!

[sinosleep]

Good exploration is what Bethesda gives us every time they decide to put out a new game. There's a lot of things I don't like about their RPGs, but if there's something they do right it's giving the player reasons to wander around the map finding new locations and getting rewarded accordingly. You could find caves, houses, hideouts, side quests, dungeons, and of course loot.

Driving around barren planets, finding the SAME three minerals/artifacts, or the SAME merc compound over and over and over again is NOT exploration.

And while I vastly prefer ME 2's at least variable merc compounds, they're not any better with regards to actual exploration.

Modifié par sinosleep, 01 janvier 2011 - 12:25 .

[voltron001]

My favorite moment of ME1 was getting to land on the Moon and look up at the Earth. That was honestly incredibly moving to me as it really cemented my connection with my Shepard. I'd love to go up into space and land on the moon but it's impossible. In ME1, I liked the general ideology of "Your Universe, Completely Explorable". Sure, that meant you had to ride on a platitude of boring, bland, monotonous planets, but I still found the idea charming. Besides, in reality, most planets are desolate pieces of rock. The "laziness" on Bioware's part when it came to the monotony of Mako exploration seemed much more forgivable and less noticable in general, then ME2's version of exploration.



ME2 in general seemed to take backward steps in terms of game design and its relation to ME's universe. In ME1, I'd like to believe something like planet mining could have never been implemented because the ideology behind the game was completely contrary to planet mining. Planet mining is a poor excuse of a time waster, something EDI could have clearly handled by herself.



I want planet exploration to come back as I think it hasn't received its due chance. I think the monotony of planet exploration wasn't the critical error, instead I think it was the Mako which was a horrible vehicle and its controls were sloppy at best. I'd have much more respect for Bioware in general if they attempted to fix the first game's mistakes, hopefully by creating a vehicle that doesn't feel like a flatbread panini rolling on a bunch of Volus for wheels.

[Had-to-say]

I know I am in the minority but I loved the Mako. I found the bad control added character to a vehicle designed to be drive offroad outerspace. I think the Mako vistas are some of the best to convey the scope and feel of the game. It is one way ME seperates itself from all other game vista after vista. As pointless as the exploration has been real space may be much less eventful. I want a new Mako and very large planets with nothing but mountains and valleys but I also want the new vehicle. Space is about the frontier and the frontier is all bout the view. Give me back my vistas with some caves deserts oceans and plains and even some landscapes we are unfamiliar with.

[Frozen Mind]

Here are some of my thoughts:

ME1 exploration:

Liked:
- large expanse and almost no limits except square borders and driver abilities
- vary environments (skyboxes, terrain textures, dangers, some critters)
- difficult to find every point of interests on single map (items, doors)

Disliked:
- unattractive combat - I used a tank tactics from Unreal Tournament - long distance, big cannon, and easy cover, when opponents were easy prey
- getting stuck in abysses in high mountains, where climbing out of the vehicle was impossible
- spawning algorithm while exiting Mako - followers getting stuck, lack of animations for leaving the vehicle
- repeating models (especially of buildings indoor)

ME2 surveying:

Liked:
- multiplicity of different worlds
- ... erm... well... maybe a difficulty?

Disliked:
- inaccurate method of gathering resources (too monotonous - boring and too long comparing to the other activities in game)
- have I mentioned it was monotonous and boring?

ME2 Firewalker/Overload exploration:

Liked:
- now I can jump higher with my Hammerhead... and a homing missiles? ... Hell yeah! But where's my Minigun? (more dynamic action)
- more detailed levels (graphic)

Disliked:
- what the hell are those transparent pillars and rotating circles above resources/items? It's like game for children now!
- Hammerhead's defenses are too weak and fast auto-repair (extinguishing fires) looks unreal and weird
- worlds are soooo limited... and linear

What would I like to see in ME3 about exploration:

- expanded terrain (like ME1, but with much better graphical and transportation design)
- maybe a shuttle or gunship
- animated insertion and extraction of the crew in randomly chosen place on a map from a vehicle (like XYZ of: exit door, destination for commander and 2 followers with +/- check if current place is blocked - few negative results will return a note that level terrain is needed, door animation - it has to be fast one, so no cut scenes)
- more flexible enemies (covering from sniper fire)
- limited places to exchange resources for credits and contrariwise
- continue to create many and different (and incredible) worlds
- marks of target better fitting vehicle's GUI or just use the simple radar marking
- maybe an automated planet surface scanner showing (some time for animation) in red-yellow-green-blue scale reading for currently selected resource? Then you could just aim and send a drone like in ME2

Modifié par Frozen Mind, 01 janvier 2011 - 05:20 .