34 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

(husband)

I was wondering if anyone else finds themselves pulled into the role as therapeutic nurturer role when relating to their followers and other major game NPCs.    I kind of laugh, because the last character has been the most villanous I've been in game and even he couldn't quite break away from the pull.

In a lot of ways, it seems to me that the Bioware games I've played sort of encourage this.   (It seems like there is a lot of Operant Conditioning where you are subtley encouraged to be this way and normally rewarded for it, and that the game designers and writers might likewise embrace a lot of the values of the values of humanistic psychology.


And for those of you who aren't familiar with Roderian therapy see

www.myshrink.com/counseling-theory.php

Modifié par Addai67, 30 décembre 2010 - 07:39 .

[CalJones]

Heh yes, you're not wrong. I think the only character who ever calls you on it is Kaiden in ME.

My current character is rather villainous and I find it impossible to avoid, too. But then I play her as a narcissistic psychopath who wants to lull people into a false sense of security.

[metatheurgist]

Yes. One of the reasons I don't really like the visible influence system (and the rewards). It turns it into a mini-game where the reward is to get free upgrades or quests. If you couldn't see influence then at least you'd have to guess when you upset/pleased the NPCs instead of waiting for the Ding! and reloading if you didn't.



It'd also help if the NPCs weren't so obvious; everyone wears their hearts on their sleeves instead of nursing grudges and exacting revenge when the PC least expects it. I'd like to see the system subverted one day by having a NPC pretend to like the PC (100 influence - why yes I'm your best buddy!), then stab the PC in the back at a most inconvenient moment.

[CalJones]

Like Bishop in NWN2 or Yoshimo in BGII?

[Addai]

(husband)

The way I see it there is some reason for the game to be set up the way it is, especially concerning social psychology (people like people who like them, do them favors etc.  and are also usually pretty open about their approval). But there is more room to try to encourage other styles of play. Sort of like the saying about some women prefer "bad boys". I could defintely see a character like Morrigan or Viconia digging you more if you fit that verses being all ultra understanding and kind. (Of course given social taboos and the climate of political correctness I think game designers need to tread carefully here)

I think what the game did with Sten is probably the best example of trying to promote a alernative. Even though Sten responds well to the usual empathy, one of the big bumps you get with him is beating him up and ordering him back in line when he challenges you. And it all makes sense given his culture and its values. Turning alpha male in that situation is probably the best thing you can do.

Modifié par Addai67, 30 décembre 2010 - 12:45 .

[CalJones]

True. There are other instances where it helps too, such as when you tell him you're not there to impress him.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

It's something I hear has improved a bit in DA2, at least in the approval department. That having low or negative approval will open up a different side to the companion, which I think is great. it's something I dislike about most RPGs: the only way you can gain better interaction/more content with a companion is to get in their good books, score cool points with them. I'd much rather see it go both ways, where negative approval can trigger other dialogues/quests/confrontations and benefits.



Because real people are like that.

[Tigress M]

Addai67 wrote...
I think what the game did with Sten is probably the best example of trying to promote a alernative. Even though Sten responds well to the usual empathy, one of the big bumps you get with him is beating him up and ordering him back in line when he challenges you. And it all makes sense given his culture and its values. Turning alpha male in that situation is probably the best thing you can do.

Agreed.  And another positive response is when he tells you he's not impressed with you and you reply,  "I'm not here to impress you."  I love that line because it's one of the few times you actually get rewarded for saying what you really feel vs what you think your companions want to hear.  

[metatheurgist]

CalJones wrote...

Like Bishop in NWN2 or Yoshimo in BGII?

First time I picked up Yoshi I was sure he'd betray me (and there isn't an influence system in BG2). Bishop doesn't even pretend to like the PC so I wasn't surprised when he turned. I'd like the system to feed the PC the usual dialogue, and "personal quest" routine, convince the player that they're doing the same thing that they've gotten from every game with an influence system, then pull the rug out. Just for a change.

[Sarielle]

metatheurgist wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Like Bishop in NWN2 or Yoshimo in BGII?

First time I picked up Yoshi I was sure he'd betray me (and there isn't an influence system in BG2). Bishop doesn't even pretend to like the PC so I wasn't surprised when he turned. I'd like the system to feed the PC the usual dialogue, and "personal quest" routine, convince the player that they're doing the same thing that they've gotten from every game with an influence system, then pull the rug out. Just for a change.

He does if you romance him. I mean, he's still kind of a jackass (he wouldn't be Bishop otherwise) but it's much different than when he just loathes you.

It also makes the whole betrayal thing a little more palatable imo.

[Dean_the_Young]

Definitely. One reason I actually like Jacob in ME2: he's about the only person in the game who DOESN'T need you to resolve his life/personal issues for him. Shepard's just the taxi driver.

[CalJones]

And yet people complain that Jacob is boring.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Definitely. One reason I actually like Jacob in ME2: he's about the only person in the game who DOESN'T need you to resolve his life/personal issues for him. Shepard's just the taxi driver.

Wasn't there the problem with his faher, where we help him decide what to do and get over it?

[Giggles_Manically]

Not really.



He deals with as fast as Mordin does really.

Then again he also spaz attacks when Shepard tries to actually talk to him or get to know him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea but that's how ME2 is. Everyone gets over it very quickly thanks to mighty Shepard. Garrus gets over his problem just as quickly.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 décembre 2010 - 09:30 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I hated ME2 for that.



Even the damn robot had issues.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I hated ME2 for that.

Even the damn robot had issues.

Yet he wasn't romancable. Bioware tortures me.

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Definitely. One reason I actually like Jacob in ME2: he's about the only person in the game who DOESN'T need you to resolve his life/personal issues for him. Shepard's just the taxi driver.

Wasn't there the problem with his faher, where we help him decide what to do and get over it?

Nope. Shepard's only influence in the mission is how to deal with the father after Jacob already says he doesn't give a **** about what happens to the man. It really has no effect on Jacob, as he already made his peace and disowned the man.

Rather refreshing, really.

[Dean_the_Young]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I hated ME2 for that.

Even the damn robot had issues.

Yet he wasn't romancable. Bioware tortures me.

What was that comic?

"Do you at least have a vibrate function?"

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I hated ME2 for that.

Even the damn robot had issues.

"What did we do wrong?"

Makes me want to tear up and hug him.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I hated ME2 for that.

Even the damn robot had issues.

Yet he wasn't romancable. Bioware tortures me.

What was that comic?

"Do you at least have a vibrate function?"

You see what I mean? I see no reason why a mechanical construct cannot form consenting, loving adult relationships. And best of all, he can be installed with a mute button.

perfect.:wub:

[Giggles_Manically]

Legion is still one of the more cool characters in ME2.



Really when talking about him with Miranda:

Miranda: BLah blah blah cerberus blah blah give it to Cerberus

Me; SHUT IT! NEW ROBOT! I wanted one since I was like six!

[Addai]

metatheurgist wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Like Bishop in NWN2 or Yoshimo in BGII?

First time I picked up Yoshi I was sure he'd betray me (and there isn't an influence system in BG2). Bishop doesn't even pretend to like the PC so I wasn't surprised when he turned. I'd like the system to feed the PC the usual dialogue, and "personal quest" routine, convince the player that they're doing the same thing that they've gotten from every game with an influence system, then pull the rug out. Just for a change.

(husband)

Yes one example could be running acrossed a character doing a "long con" kind of like Sawyer on Lost in his pre-Island days.



But one simple thing the game could do is have some people be users that will take advantage of the player (in a more obvious way) if the person is too nice.   Kind of like "the veteran" of the Alienage only having a party member do that.    The person is happy to beg money or even steal from the player.   If caught they give a sob story that the money is going to "help their grand ma, support their family etc." but in reality its going to support their favorite vice or vices.



The game could also have some people value strength and competence more then overt altruism.   Kind of like street gangs and prisoners respect you more for being strong than being a nice guy which they see as being a doormat.

Modifié par Addai67, 30 décembre 2010 - 10:01 .

[CalJones]

Morrigan does - it's all survival of the fittest, according to her. Then again, she also has a few rather retarded approval losses (Stone Prisoner, for instance).

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

Morrigan does - it's all survival of the fittest, according to her. Then again, she also has a few rather retarded approval losses (Stone Prisoner, for instance).

(husband)


What's the loss exactly?  Is it loosing approval if the girl dies by not solving the puzzle and attacking the cat?



Morrigan does want you to break type from the nice guy / lady role but not completely.   Being nice to her personally is a great way to get those approval bumps.   Not to mention she also is not able to fend off "The talking cure".    

(She gains a bit of insight and even a small ammount of empathy for her templar victims via conversation)

Modifié par Addai67, 31 décembre 2010 - 03:08 .