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[Phaedon]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
I absolutely support morality. I just don't support the idea that it's never right to kill someone. Morality isn't a simple concept. Sometimes seemingly egregious acts are the right ones.

Morality as a concept isn't complex at all, most 3 year olds can distinguish bad from good. You could say that some moral choices are difficult, but you can't say that it's complex as a concept.

Those are normative ethics, established in a way, for you to enjoy full freedom as long as it doesn't conflict with the freedom of another idividual. 

Calling any other way of reasoning as 'ethics' is moot, since that gives you perfect freedom to cause harm to everyone else and still feel good about yourself. In that case, instead of using 'custom' morality as a mental shield, it would be better to drop it all together and enjoy full mental freedom.

Calling my dog a cat, will change something only in my mind. A dog is a dog.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Phaedon wrote...

Those are normative ethics, established in a way, for you to enjoy full freedom as long as it doesn't conflict with the freedom of another idividual. 

I think you're confusing morality with the recent western philosophies of individualism and classical liberalism. Freedom is not equivalent with morality.

[Phaedon]

This has nothing to do with western philosophies, which by the way, are millenias older than the ones that you suggest.



Morality has been crafted for generations upon generations, and it still is being crafted today. It's point is to promote both the general good and the idividual's good. "I don't like being beaten, but I don't like to see people beat others either". It's a direct product of empathy, and you could say that it's an indirect product of sentience.

In some religions, these ethics are being promoted. Nobody can force morality into you. Sure, you'll get angry looks and perhaps a rant from someone who is obsessed with their principles, but as long as you don't break the law (the written version of normative ethics) then it's OK.



What is not OK, imho, however, is to name your logic as morality or realism.

[Xeranx]

I beg anyone that will hear me please do NOT put Goku...I mean Kai Leng in ME3. I hated the writing in retribution. Considering how easy it was for him to dispatch so many Turian soldiers I'm wondering why he needed a team to take Grayson in. He could have knocked Grayson out, killed Liselle and still made it look like Grayson had too much to drink. If there ever was a through and through Mary-Sue character I've ever come across, then Kai Leng is it.

[Phaedon]

Xeranx wrote...

I beg anyone that will hear me please do NOT put Goku...I mean Kai Leng in ME3. I hated the writing in retribution. Considering how easy it was for him to dispatch so many Turian soldiers I'm wondering why he needed a team to take Grayson in. He could have knocked Grayson out, killed Liselle and still made it look like Grayson had too much to drink. If there ever was a through and through Mary-Sue character I've ever come across, then Kai Leng is it.

Because he sucks at everything other than CQB?

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Phaedon wrote...

This has nothing to do with western philosophies, which by the way, are millenias older than the ones that you suggest.

Morality has been crafted for generations upon generations, and it still is being crafted today. It's point is to promote both the general good and the idividual's good. "I don't like being beaten, but I don't like to see people beat others either". It's a direct product of empathy, and you could say that it's an indirect product of sentience.
In some religions, these ethics are being promoted. Nobody can force morality into you. Sure, you'll get angry looks and perhaps a rant from someone who is obsessed with their principles, but as long as you don't break the law (the written version of normative ethics) then it's OK.

What is not OK, imho, however, is to name your logic as morality or realism.

So it's ok to label to label empathy as morality but not logic?

Morality has never been figured out. If the law is "the written version of normative ethics" as you explain, then you cannot argue anything being normative. Look at all of the different laws in different nations today. Then look throughout history. There is no consensus and there never will be.

I trust logic far more than empathy. Why? Logic by nature cannot be flawed, only misapplied. Empathy is simply the emotional responses of unstable beings conditioned from birth to feel that some things are right and some are wrong.

[Xeranx]

The fight on the ship wasn't a close quarter battle. He had to make up distance and he did it with the speed of a cheetah, the grace of a gazelle, and the power of a rhino with just a hint of snake-like reflexes.

[CroGamer002]

How you people describe him even 3 of my Renegade Sheps would rather decorate Normandy with parts of his brain.

[Xilizhra]

Morality is subjective. By my own standards, both Cerberus and COAW are evil. I'm sure that by they're own, they are not. I'm fine with that.

[Phaedon]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
So it's ok to label to label empathy as morality but not logic?

Morality has never been figured out. If the law is "the written version of normative ethics" as you explain, then you cannot argue anything being normative. Look at all of the different laws in different nations today. Then look throughout history. There is no consensus and there never will be.

I trust logic far more than empathy. Why? Logic by nature cannot be flawed, only misapplied. Empathy is simply the emotional responses of unstable beings conditioned from birth to feel that some things are right and some are wrong.

But law isn't flawless, and it's not the direct translation of empathy into a book. Morality has been figured out, at least for the most part. And we are arguing about the 'most part'! 

This is what normative ethics say: 'It's not OK to kill people, it's not OK to rob people, it's not OK to ****** on statues etc.' There is no way around that, it's absolute.  Again, you are not forced to follow it, but you can't change it. I am 99.99% sure that what you learned as a 3 year old was normative ethics. Maybe a few extra ideologies, as well, but that's not the point. You can't redefine standard in order to fit your standard!

Also, by nature, it's extremely uncommon for logic not to be flawed, at least for a bit. Even the finest representation of it, deductive reasoning, which my avatar proudly represents is almost always flawed. The principle says that you jump from one level of idea, to the other until you reach a conclusion. The problem is that you will naturally either jump several levels, make an incorrect assumption, reach a premature conclusion or all of them at once. So no, logic is almost always flawed, fortunately, it's not flawed to the point that makes you reach a wrong conclusion.

Empathy on the other hand, is connected but not the same with your instinct of survival. That instinct is based on a very basic way of logic. Fire is hot, hot hurts, whatever hurts is bad. Recognize the pattern ? Empathy, is based on your capacity to share feelings with another being, and therefore uses a lot more advanced logical patterns. Morality is not about the 'me', it's about the 'we'. Normative ethics are the ones applied to the 'we' and not the 'me'. Any other ethical ideologies are personal and not normative. Empathy is normative.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Phaedon wrote...

But law isn't flawless, and it's not the direct translation of empathy into a book. Morality has been figured out, at least for the most part. And we are arguing about the 'most part'! 

No. It has not and it never will be. On a personal level I would agree that morality is decently simple, but when we're talking about high profile operations of organizations that have an impact upon billions of lives, the right choice is hardly simple. Humanity will spend the rest of its existence trying to figure out how best to live, and, spoiler alert, we never will.

[Phaedon]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
No. It has not and it never will be. On a personal level I would agree that morality is decently simple, but when we're talking about high profile operations of organizations that have an impact upon billions of lives, the right choice is hardly simple. Humanity will spend the rest of its existence trying to figure out how best to live, and, spoiler alert, we never will.

As I said, choices can be difficult. When both of the outcomes are morally gray. When one of the moral outcomes is against normative ethics, then they are easy. You can choose to live without moral restrictions ofcourse, or create ethics of your own, but to finish the argument from where it started, this is not 'living in a realistic world'. I am off now, but I'll be back. 

[GodWood]

Barquiel wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I'd just hand him to Aria. XD

this
...and  I'd love to have Aria as a squad mate in ME3^_^

I really don't get this mindset.
Aria is just as bad/even worse than Kai Leng.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

GodWood wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I'd just hand him to Aria. XD

this
...and  I'd love to have Aria as a squad mate in ME3^_^

I really don't get this mindset.
Aria is just as bad/even worse than Kai Leng.

Agreed. I have never understood this and I've seen it posted a lot. At least Kai Leng is working for a cause greater than himself. Aria is simply a narcissistic despot.

[Kim Shepard]

I hope Kai Leng is a squadmate in ME3 if Shepard stayed loyal to Cerberus (assuming Shepard is able to work with them again in ME3, and I hope for that too). Kai's one of my favorite characters, so of course I'd like Shepard to meet him in a situation that doesn't have to involve killing him.

I'm not sure why people don't understand that Kai had to kill Liselle. Not agreeing with it, or hating him for killing a character you liked, is perfectly reasonable. But the fact is, Kai wouldn't be a very good assassin if he left her alive. If there's even the slightest possibility that she found out about Cerberus' involvement, anything else that they want kept secret, if she could come after them later or get someone else to come after them, letting her live would put the mission in danger. There are too many possibilities for him to take that risk. No matter what his personal opinions about Liselle were (and I think we all know his opinion of the asari in general), he killed her in the quick and painless way that a professional assassin would. So it seems what people don't like about him is the fact that he's a "normal" assassin who follows the mission rather than morals.

[Zavox]

GodWood wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I'd just hand him to Aria. XD

this
...and  I'd love to have Aria as a squad mate in ME3^_^

I really don't get this mindset.
Aria is just as bad/even worse than Kai Leng.

Uhm.. Racism? Kai Leng and TIM are fighting for the human race, even at the cost of other races over the entire galaxy. Aria, while not a goody two shoes, is doing no such thing. In fact, one could argue she's the one person that's inbetween anarchy and relative control and peace for the common folk on Omega. Plus, her business is mostly confined to Omega and thus has no potential global impact.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Zavox wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I'd just hand him to Aria. XD

this
...and  I'd love to have Aria as a squad mate in ME3^_^

I really don't get this mindset.
Aria is just as bad/even worse than Kai Leng.

Uhm.. Racism? Kai Leng and TIM are fighting for the human race, even at the cost of other races over the entire galaxy. Aria, while not a goody two shoes, is doing no such thing. In fact, one could argue she's the one person that's inbetween anarchy and relative control and peace for the common folk on Omega. Plus, her business is mostly confined to Omega and thus has no potential global impact.

Fighting for the human race is racism? Please provide hard evidence that Cerberus is a xenophobic organization. Pro-human does not equal anti-alien.

[Barquiel]

GodWood wrote...

Aria is just as bad/even worse than Kai Leng.

As far as I know, Aria doesn't want to kill/oppress all non-asari

[Xilizhra]

You ignored the part about "at the cost of other races over the entire galaxy."

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Barquiel wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Aria is just as bad/even worse than Kai Leng.

As far as I know, Aria doesn't want to kill/oppress all non-asari

And Kai Leng/Cerberus wants to kill/oppress all humans? Evidence?

Modifié par Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams, 30 décembre 2010 - 10:41 .

[Zavox]

Kim Shepard wrote...

I hope Kai Leng is a squadmate in ME3 if Shepard stayed loyal to Cerberus (assuming Shepard is able to work with them again in ME3, and I hope for that too). Kai's one of my favorite characters, so of course I'd like Shepard to meet him in a situation that doesn't have to involve killing him.

I'm not sure why people don't understand that Kai had to kill Liselle. Not agreeing with it, or hating him for killing a character you liked, is perfectly reasonable. But the fact is, Kai wouldn't be a very good assassin if he left her alive. If there's even the slightest possibility that she found out about Cerberus' involvement, anything else that they want kept secret, if she could come after them later or get someone else to come after them, letting her live would put the mission in danger. There are too many possibilities for him to take that risk. No matter what his personal opinions about Liselle were (and I think we all know his opinion of the asari in general), he killed her in the quick and painless way that a professional assassin would. So it seems what people don't like about him is the fact that he's a "normal" assassin who follows the mission rather than morals.

You seem to have missed that he made up his mind about killing her, before he knew the conditions as to whether it was needed to do so. I can understand killing bystanders (I do not agree with it, mind you) if it otherwise would risk your operation, but not deciding killing bystanders before knowing the circumstances. Which is what Kai Leng did and thus I will conclude he's not a good assassin.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Xilizhra wrote...

You ignored the part about "at the cost of other races over the entire galaxy."

I ignored it because it's unsubstantiated.

[Barquiel]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Aria is just as bad/even worse than Kai Leng.

As far as I know, Aria doesn't want to kill/oppress all non-asari

And Kai Leng/Cerberus wants to kill/oppress all humans? Evidence?

"Nothing is more important than human dominance" is quite clear.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Barquiel wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

And Kai Leng/Cerberus wants to kill/oppress all humans? Evidence?

"Nothing is more important than human dominance" is quite clear.

How is dominance the equivalent of killing and/or oppressing everyone else. Someone will always have power. That does not mean that everyone else is oppressed. It surely doesn't mean everyone else is dead.

[Kim Shepard]

Zavox wrote...

You seem to have missed that he made up his mind about killing her, before he knew the conditions as to whether it was needed to do so. I can understand killing bystanders (I do not agree with it, mind you) if it otherwise would risk your operation, but not deciding killing bystanders before knowing the circumstances. Which is what Kai Leng did and thus I will conclude he's not a good assassin.

I didn't miss that, it was part of my point. Liselle would have been a witness to a mission that was supposed to be a secret, and those conditions mean that he has to kill her. She would have been the bystander who was a risk to the operation. There was no question about that.

Kai's only mistake was not taking the possibility into account that even if Grayson went home alone, someone else could join him later, but that is always a possibility. Once he spoke to the turian guards, the mission had already started and there was no going back. Anyone aside from Grayson had to be killed if they saw Kai and his team in order for the mission to be a success.