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[JustValiant]

Hopefully he will be an enemy, imho this guy is an psychopath, much more unpredictable than Jack and Grunt together and even his loyalty to Cerberus I doubt. Even for a renegade Shepard this maniac should be out of line!

[Zavox]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Fighting for the human race is racism? Please provide hard evidence that Cerberus is a xenophobic organization. Pro-human does not equal anti-alien.

"In universe, the organization's name comes from an anonymous manifesto
made after the First Contact War detailing the need for humanity to have
a "Cerberus" to guard it from the aliens beyond the Charon Relay."

One would assume that after humanity had intimate ties with the various species in the galaxy and a strong Alliance no need for Cerberus would remain.

"For the sake of humanity's future, [The Illusive Man] would have to swallow his pride and beg for help from those who represented everything Cerberus despised about alien cultures"

Complete racist statement, as humanity is just as much capable as to what Aria does on Omega. But apperantly TIM thinks this is only the case with aliens, which is a telltale sign of racism.


Furthermore, it's heavily implied throughout the entire series of Mass Effect, and even said almost litteraly,  that Cerberus is the type of organization that thinks that the end justifies the means. In case of human betterment at the cost of aliens, we can assume that it's ok in Cerberus' books.

[Barquiel]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

That does not mean that everyone else is oppressed. It surely doesn't mean everyone else is dead.

- Noting is more important than human dominance
- anti-alien leanings are proof of character
- the abduction and experimentation on aliens

I come to the conclusion that cerberus wants to oppress all non-humans if I combine these things.

In contrast, Aria's pit fights are rather harmless for galactic stability

Modifié par Barquiel, 30 décembre 2010 - 11:04 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Zavox wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Fighting for the human race is racism? Please provide hard evidence that Cerberus is a xenophobic organization. Pro-human does not equal anti-alien.

"In universe, the organization's name comes from an anonymous manifesto
made after the First Contact War detailing the need for humanity to have
a "Cerberus" to guard it from the aliens beyond the Charon Relay."

One would assume that after humanity had intimate ties with the various species in the galaxy and a strong Alliance no need for Cerberus would remain.

"For the sake of humanity's future, [The Illusive Man] would have to swallow his pride and beg for help from those who represented everything Cerberus despised about alien cultures"

Complete racist statement, as humanity is just as much capable as to what Aria does on Omega. But apperantly TIM thinks this is only the case with aliens, which is a telltale sign of racism.


Furthermore, it's heavily implied throughout the entire series of Mass Effect, and even said almost litteraly,  that Cerberus is the type of organization that thinks that the end justifies the means. In case of human betterment at the cost of aliens, we can assume that it's ok in Cerberus' books.

1. Defending humanity is hardly anti-alien.
2. Despising a culture does not make you racist.
3. The ends do justify the means, but the jump is illogical. "Assume" is the key word in your statements.

[GodWood]

Zavox wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I'd just hand him to Aria. XD

this
...and  I'd love to have Aria as a squad mate in ME3^_^

I really don't get this mindset.
Aria is just as bad/even worse than Kai Leng.

Uhm.. Racism? Kai Leng and TIM are fighting for the human race, even at the cost of other races over the entire galaxy. Aria, while not a goody two shoes, is doing no such thing. In fact, one could argue she's the one person that's inbetween anarchy and relative control and peace for the common folk on Omega. Plus, her business is mostly confined to Omega and thus has no potential global impact.

Aria's regular pitfights where she feeds humans to krogan are far worse than someone being racist.

[Zavox]

Kim Shepard wrote...

I didn't miss that, it was part of my point. Liselle would have been a witness to a mission that was supposed to be a secret, and those conditions mean that he has to kill her. She would have been the bystander who was a risk to the operation. There was no question about that.

Kai's only mistake was not taking the possibility into account that even if Grayson went home alone, someone else could join him later, but that is always a possibility. Once he spoke to the turian guards, the mission had already started and there was no going back. Anyone aside from Grayson had to be killed if they saw Kai and his team in order for the mission to be a success.

You do, and still do. Kai Leng assumed, because the guards said so, that Liselle would be present. He has no way of knowing for sure, or even in what condition Liselle would be at the time of the attack. (For all he knows she might be unconcious at the time of the attack.) A good assassin doesn't assume, he acts on facts not assumptions.

Plus, there were several witnesses to the attack, none were killed other than Liselle. He had to be sure either way he would've been seen and described.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Barquiel wrote...

- Noting is more important than human dominance

Already addressed.

- anti-alien leanings are proof of character

Yes, proof that Kai Leng does not want to cater to the Alliance's new alien masters they work so hard to impress. Kai Leng wants humanity to be independent (as does TIM). Kai Leng's "anti-alien leanings" are simply a backlash to the Alliance's getting in bed with the counci.

- the abduction and experimentation on aliens

We have for more records of Cerberus abducting and experimenting on humans. By that logic they are more anti-human than anything.

[Zavox]

GodWood wrote...

Aria's regular pitfights where she feeds humans to krogan are far worse than someone being racist.

You're assuming she's forcing the humans and krogan. Plus it specifically states "to keep them busy for an hour", it doesn't however say who is going to be trashed. Thus we can assume the forces are quite evenly matched. While it's a bad taste for entertainment, we cannot conclude whether it's being forced upon or utter annihilation either. Could very well be regular wrestling aswell.

[AntiChri5]

Kai Leng is a psycopathic racist.

He is a human version of Saren, nothing more.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Kai Leng is a psycopathic racist.
He is a human version of Saren, nothing more.

So he got so consumed with himself that he sold his soul to the Reapers, ensuring the destruction of all organic life, in order to save himself?

[Zavox]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

1. Defending humanity is hardly anti-alien.
2. Despising a culture does not make you racist.
3. The ends do justify the means, but the jump is illogical. "Assume" is the key word in your statements.

1. There's no need to defend humanity as the Alliance already is, and we're having intimate political ties with the alien species except for baterians/vorcha/etc. but those do not pose a significant threat. Thus the entire 'defending humanity' is not needed anymore. It should've disbanded if not for ulterior motives.

3. Why are you missing all my points? It's not that despising a culture makes you racist (which it doesn't). It's the fact that he does not acknowledge the same culture being present in humanity aswell. He blames aliens for something which is inherent to humanity just the same. THAT is what is racist. He's blind to the negatives in humanity but not so to aliens. Look up what racism means, this is as close as you can get to an example.

3. The jump is not illogical. If the ends justify the means, IT'S damned obvious he would advance humanity at the cost of the other races if the opportunity arises. (Ends justify the (ANY) means eh?). It's not assuming, it's exactly why following 'the ends justify the means' is utter horse****.

Modifié par Zavox, 30 décembre 2010 - 11:28 .

[Kim Shepard]

Zavox wrote...

You do, and still do. Kai Leng assumed, because the guards said so, that Liselle would be present. He has no way of knowing for sure, or even in what condition Liselle would be at the time of the attack. (For all he knows she might be unconcious at the time of the attack.) A good assassin doesn't assume, he acts on facts not assumptions.

It would have been foolish of Kai Leng to doubt that Liselle was there after the guards said so. It's better to plan for the possibility that someone will be there, because if there is, they won't be caught off-guard and they'll know what to do. Thinking that Liselle wouldn't have been there even after being told that she is would have been an assumption, and a very dangerous one. He had no reason to believe that Liselle wouldn't have been conscious, or that she wouldn't have woken up when he captured Grayson even on the off-chance she wasn't conscious when he arrived. A good assassin does assume that anyone who might know about him or the mission can become a problem in the future. They wouldn't assume that Liselle was no danger to them.

Plus, there were several witnesses to the attack, none were killed other than Liselle. He had to be sure either way he would've been seen and described.

The only other witnesses I remember were the turian guards, who were all killed.

[Kim Shepard]

AntiChri5 wrote...

He is a human version of Saren, nothing more.

Maybe that's why Kai is one of my favorites.

(That was a joke. There are similarities between the two, but both are completely different characters. I shouldn't have to write a wall-of-text post to explain that.)

[Zavox]

Kim Shepard wrote...

It would have been foolish of Kai Leng to doubt that Liselle was there after the guards said so. It's better to plan for the possibility that someone will be there, because if there is, they won't be caught off-guard and they'll know what to do. Thinking that Liselle wouldn't have been there even after being told that she is would have been an assumption, and a very dangerous one. He had no reason to believe that Liselle wouldn't have been conscious, or that she wouldn't have woken up when he captured Grayson even on the off-chance she wasn't conscious when he arrived. A good assassin does assume that anyone who might know about him or the mission can become a problem in the future. They wouldn't assume that Liselle was no danger to them.

No, you take both possibilities into account. Which is entirely different as to what he did. When you get information that Liselle is there from the guards, you take that possibility into account and give your team orders for when such a thing happens. Yet Kai Leng immediately ordered the team to kill Liselle if given the chance (thus even when she is unconcious). That's not how assassins go, they usually avoid killing other than the ones they are after.

Kim Shepard wrote...

The only other witnesses I remember were the turian guards, who were all killed.

Read the novel, Aria gets information from several witnesses as to what transpired (up until they barged into the house, so they wouldn't know what happened there) and what race the assault team composed of.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Zavox wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

1. Defending humanity is hardly anti-alien.
2. Despising a culture does not make you racist.
3. The ends do justify the means, but the jump is illogical. "Assume" is the key word in your statements.

1. There's no need to defend humanity as the Alliance already is, and we're having intimate political ties with the alien species except for baterians/vorcha/etc. but those do not pose a significant threat. Thus the entire 'defending humanity' is not needed anymore. It should've disbanded if not for ulterior motives.

3. Why are you missing all my points? It's not that despising a culture makes you racist (which it doesn't). It's the fact that he does not acknowledge the same culture being present in humanity aswell. He blames aliens for something which is inherent to humanity just the same. THAT is what is racist. He's blind to the negatives in humanity but not so to aliens. Look up what racism means, this is as close as you can get to an example.

3. The jump is not illogical. If the ends justify the means, IT'S damned obvious he would advance humanity at the cost of the other races if the opportunity arises. (Ends justify the (ANY) means eh?). It's not assuming, it's exactly why following 'the ends justify the means' is utter horse****.

1. The fact that the Alliance does not view the other species as a significant threat is why Cerberus exists in its current form. The Alliance is far too trusting.
2. There is a word for this, and it's not "racism." It's "hypocrisy."
3. Believing the ends justify the means is not as simple a philosophy as you make it out to be. Even the simplest of actions have a multitude of consequences. Saying the "Ends justify the (ANY) means" is a facile argument. A better way of stating it would be: if the benefit of the complete set of consequences outweighs the cost of the complete set of means required to reach the desired ends, then that action is just.

[Barquiel]

Kim Shepard wrote...

So it seems what people don't like about him is the fact that he's a "normal" assassin who follows the mission rather than morals.

Well, I don't like him because ...

- he's a racist,
- I feel sorry for Aria (Liselle)
- and I hate this "super-badass-melee-assassin" character archetype

Modifié par Barquiel, 30 décembre 2010 - 11:40 .

[Zavox]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

1. The fact that the Alliance does not view the other species as a significant threat is why Cerberus exists in its current form. The Alliance is far too trusting.
2. There is a word for this, and it's not "racism." It's "hypocrisy."
3. Believing the ends justify the means is not as simple a philosophy as you make it out to be. Even the simplest of actions have a multitude of consequences. Saying the "Ends justify the (ANY) means" is a facile argument. A better way of stating it would be: if the benefit of the complete set of consequences outweighs the cost of the complete set of means required to reach the desired ends, then that action is just.

1. Assuming the other races are a threat is also racist, for there's no evidence to assume they are a threat at the very moment. This means you have a preconception of the other races. Which is racist.

Also, if the Alliance is less trusting humanity would've never been where they were right now. They most likely would've been obliterated in the First Contact War if they shunned the council. Oh, now why would the council help out humanity... hmm... must not be such a big threat then huh?

2. You've got to be kidding me... hypocrisy on this subject is also racism. You do not acknowledge present facts and thus you alleviate humanity above the other races. Thus whether you want to call it plain hypocrisy, it's also racism.

3. Fine, I shouldn't have phrased it as 'ANY'. Allow me to rephrase then.

I assume we can both agree that TIM and Cerberus sees the betterment of humanity as a morally just goal, right? If that's the case (which we both know it is), then he would be able to justify his means (which could be the betterment of humanity at the cost of the other races).

Modifié par Zavox, 30 décembre 2010 - 11:59 .

[Kim Shepard]

Zavox wrote...

No, you take both possibilities into account. Which is entirely different as to what he did. When you get information that Liselle is there from the guards, you take that possibility into account and give your team orders for when such a thing happens. Yet Kai Leng immediately ordered the team to kill Liselle if given the chance (thus even when she is unconcious).

Liselle was only unconscious after they shot her. They couldn't just leave her there to wake up later when Grayson could have told her who was after them. That's the only thing that mattered to them, and that's why Kai killed her. There's no point in debating that - it's a fact. There's no way Kai could have known for sure that Liselle wouldn't know anything, and that creates problems for his mission. 

That's not how assassins go, they usually avoid killing other than the ones they are after.

Then we must be thinking of very different books/movies/games, etc. They don't kill people who pose no danger to the mission, that much is true. But they would have killed Liselle because her life does endanger the mission.

Read the novel, Aria gets information from several witnesses as to what transpired (up until they barged into the house, so they wouldn't know what happened there) and what race the assault team composed of.

All they knew was that the team was human. Kai Leng wasn't going to kill everyone in the building just because they might have looked out their windows at the wrong time. That would create even more problems, for the mission and Cerberus in general, and taking on all of those people with a gun that only shoots tranquilizer darts is an easy way to get himself and his team killed before the mission is complete. Liselle knew much more than the average bystander.

Barquiel wrote...

Well, I don't like him because ...

- he's a racist,
- I feel sorry for Aria (Liselle)
- and I hate this "super-badass-melee-assassin" character archetype

And that's a perfectly understandable reason not to like him. I just like the "super-badass-melee-assassin" character archetype. It's not that I don't feel sorry for Aria, but if I hated every character who killed or upset or insulted a character I like, there would be no one left. I like Kai even though he hates my favorite alien race, turians.

[AntiChri5]

So he got so consumed with himself that he sold his soul to the Reapers, ensuring the destruction of all organic life, in order to save himself?

That wasn't Sarens motivation, and i was oh so obviously refferring to his pre indoctrination identity.

(That was a joke. There are similarities between the two, but both are completely different characters. I shouldn't have to write a wall-of-text post to explain that.)

There are differences, but there are way too many similarities.

[Zavox]

Kim Shepard wrote...

Liselle was only unconscious after they shot her. They couldn't just leave her there to wake up later when Grayson could have told her who was after them. That's the only thing that mattered to them, and that's why Kai killed her. There's no point in debating that - it's a fact. There's no way Kai could have known for sure that Liselle wouldn't know anything, and that creates problems for his mission.

I wasn't talking about her being unconscious after the shot, I was talking about Kai Leng ordering a kill on Liselle whatever the circumstances, even if she where unconscious before they entered for whatever reason. That's the point I'm making, he's ordering a kill on a bystander before he knows the circumstances (not to mention with what words he orders the kill).

Then we must be thinking of very different books/movies/games, etc. They don't kill people who pose no danger to the mission, that much is true. But they would have killed Liselle because her life does endanger the mission.

Adressed above, you misunderstood what I meant.

All they knew was that the team was human. Kai Leng wasn't going to kill everyone in the building just because they might have looked out their windows at the wrong time. That would create even more problems, for the mission and Cerberus in general, and taking on all of those people with a gun that only shoots tranquilizer darts is an easy way to get himself and his team killed before the mission is complete. Liselle knew much more than the average bystander.

Such as? She didn't know about Grayson's background, nor did Aria. The only thing she knew was that they were humans and used tranquilizers if she woke up. Which Aria should've found out anyway if she properly examined the body of Liselle. At most they would've gotten a bit more circumstantial evidence.

Modifié par Zavox, 31 décembre 2010 - 12:17 .

[Kim Shepard]

The point I'm trying to make is, Kai Leng had reason to believe that anyone in the apartment with Grayson could have information that would create problems for the mission. The fact that she's a bystander in that apartment would be considered a good enough circumstance for Kai or any other assassin to kill her. It doesn't matter if we agree with his reasons or not, or if Liselle realy did know anything - either way, the mission requires him to make sure that information doesn't get out. If Kai or another Cerberus assassin had allowed someone to survive like that, and their survival did create a problem, there would definitely be consequences from TIM (and Kai made it obvious at the end of the novel that he thinks TIM is the kind of leader who would have him killed off).

It's not a misunderstanding, just a difference of opinion. We might have to agree to disagree.

[Zavox]

I guess that's for the best then, as I clearly do not agree to order a kill before even entering the building and assessing the situation. I do not see how your arguments lessen that opinion as they all include perfect knowledge that she's in the building and in a position to pose a risk to the operation. Which he both doesn't know for certain.

Modifié par Zavox, 31 décembre 2010 - 01:09 .

[Kim Shepard]

I never said he knew that without a doubt, only that it would have been foolish of him not to believe it. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion about if what he did was morally right, or even give my own opinion about the morality of it (now there's a debate I don't want to start). Just that Kai Leng had his reasons, and they aren't unusual for an assassin.

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

So it seems what people don't like about him is the fact that he's a "normal" assassin who follows the mission rather than morals.

Well, I don't like him because ...

- he's a racist,
- I feel sorry for Aria (Liselle)
- and I hate this "super-badass-melee-assassin" character archetype

I can understand the first and third, but you feel sorry for a crime vice-lord? Really?

[Xilizhra]

It's not nice to have your daughter killed, no matter who you are. I feel sorry for Samara even though she actually did kill her daughter.