Aller au contenu

Photo

Will Kai Leng be ME3 squadmate or enemy?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
160 réponses à ce sujet

#101
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 675 messages

Zavox wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

1. The fact that the Alliance does not view the other species as a significant threat is why Cerberus exists in its current form. The Alliance is far too trusting.
2. There is a word for this, and it's not "racism." It's "hypocrisy."
3. Believing the ends justify the means is not as simple a philosophy as you make it out to be. Even the simplest of actions have a multitude of consequences. Saying the "Ends justify the (ANY) means" is a facile argument. A better way of stating it would be: if the benefit of the complete set of consequences outweighs the cost of the complete set of means required to reach the desired ends, then that action is just.


1. Assuming the other races are a threat is also racist, for there's no evidence to assume they are a threat at the very moment. This means you have a preconception of the other races. Which is racist.

Also, if the Alliance is less trusting humanity would've never been where they were right now. They most likely would've been obliterated in the First Contact War if they shunned the council. Oh, now why would the council help out humanity... hmm... must not be such a big threat then huh?

I'm really trying not to laugh at this.

Aliens are not a potential threat.

Aliens could have obliterated the human race if humans didn't pay proper deference.

Hm...

#102
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 675 messages

Zavox wrote...

Hmmm? What about that helpless drugged Asari? Which coincidentally was the child of the Queen of Omega?

What about her? 

She wasn't killed because she was an Asari, nor was she killed because she was the child of the Queen of Omega, nor was she that helpless when she gravely wounded one of his people. And she wasn't killed for that either.

She was killed because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not because Kai is a racist.

#103
Aeowyn

Aeowyn
  • Members
  • 1 988 messages
As much as I didn't mind working with Cerberus in ME2, I've kind of had enough of them for a while. Whilst Kai Leng is good at what he does, and I understand why he did the things he did, I'm just sick of the "badass cold assassin" - types.

#104
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 675 messages

Xilizhra wrote...

You ignored the part about "at the cost of other races over the entire galaxy."

Opportunity costs or practical costs?

Opportunity costs exist regardless. Humanity gaining a seat costs the Council races and non-Council races alike in various ways. Humanity gaining more influence and sway increases this loss of comparitive power and gains.

Direct losses? Dominance need not, and indeed often does not, entail costs such as, oh, being forced to give up territory, direct harm to citizens, beingn forced to pay tribute, and so on. In fact, those are actions that lead to a lot of loss of dominance.

Political dominance is an opportunity cost, but is not innately a direct harm. Which matters to you?

#105
Zavox

Zavox
  • Members
  • 403 messages

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm really trying not to laugh at this.

Aliens are not a potential threat.

Aliens could have obliterated the human race if humans didn't pay proper deference.

Hm...


Yes, which was before we had contact with any species but the turians smart-ass. Which was exactly my point, we needed them in the first contact war, but not after the first contact war. So... laugh all you want, but you're the one who's foolish here.

#106
Eddo36

Eddo36
  • Members
  • 1 491 messages
Krogan and Rachni are a threat, as well. The other races had to stop them. Now Reapers.

Modifié par Eddo36, 31 décembre 2010 - 07:40 .


#107
Zavox

Zavox
  • Members
  • 403 messages
Krogan and Rachni are a threat? You've got to be kidding me...

The Rachni Wars were between 1 and 300CE. The Krogan Rebellions between 700 and 800CE.

#108
Eddo36

Eddo36
  • Members
  • 1 491 messages
So why did asari/turian/salarian hunt Rachni to extinction and then genophage Krogan and kept tabs that genophage was funcitoning properly?

Modifié par Eddo36, 01 janvier 2011 - 09:31 .


#109
Zavox

Zavox
  • Members
  • 403 messages

Eddo36 wrote...

So why did asari/turian/salarian hunt Rachni to extinction and then genophage Krogan and kept tabs that genophage was funcitoning properly?


The council weren't the agressors...

#110
Eddo36

Eddo36
  • Members
  • 1 491 messages
Don't forget Geth. They're a race, too.

#111
Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams
  • Members
  • 996 messages

Zavox wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

So why did asari/turian/salarian hunt Rachni to extinction and then genophage Krogan and kept tabs that genophage was funcitoning properly?


The council weren't the agressors...


So if a person of another race tries to kill me, I have the right to wipe out his entire race?

#112
Lord Coake

Lord Coake
  • Members
  • 655 messages

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams

Oh. Look. Another subhuman terrorist cerberus fanboy.

Is it the complete lack of anything that could be confused with character depth that draws fans to cerberus, or is it yet another "Huuuuurrrrr GRIMDARK and GRIMEDGEY" thing?

Modifié par Lord Coake, 02 janvier 2011 - 01:33 .


#113
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 675 messages

Zavox wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm really trying not to laugh at this.

Aliens are not a potential threat.

Aliens could have obliterated the human race if humans didn't pay proper deference.

Hm...


Yes, which was before we had contact with any species but the turians smart-ass. Which was exactly my point, we needed them in the first contact war, but not after the first contact war. So... laugh all you want, but you're the one who's foolish here.

Smart ass? My my, some people just can't be civil when challenged.

The Turians didn't stop being dangerous when they stopped fighting. The Council didn't stop being a potential enemy even when they asked (told?) us to join up.

The funny thing about conflicts is that the only real time to prepare for them is before they start. If you only do something when you need it or it's imminent, it's quite often too late. You don't look to drink during the middle of a long run, you don't look to study in the minutes before the test, and you don't start preparing for a war once it's already apparent.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 janvier 2011 - 01:32 .


#114
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 675 messages

Lord Coake wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams


Oh. Look. Another subhuman terrorist cerberus fanboy.

Don't be sexist.



Also, as a curiosity, could you do the fandom a favor and list five acts of terrorism that would warrant the label for Cerberus? No one else really has been able to, not in a working and sensible definition of the word.

#115
Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams
  • Members
  • 996 messages

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Don't be sexist.

Also, as a curiosity, could you do the fandom a favor and list five acts of terrorism that would warrant the label for Cerberus? No one else really has been able to, not in a working and sensible definition of the word.


I would assume I am female based on my username if I didn't know me.

Oh, and here's a hint for listing acts of terrorism committed by Cerberus: you can't.

#116
Lord Coake

Lord Coake
  • Members
  • 655 messages

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Don't be sexist.

Also, as a curiosity, could you do the fandom a favor and list five acts of terrorism that would warrant the label for Cerberus? No one else really has been able to, not in a working and sensible definition of the word.


I would assume I am female based on my username if I didn't know me.

Oh, and here's a hint for listing acts of terrorism committed by Cerberus: you can't.


The Asari abducted for biochemical research, the whole Sole Survivor background, the little girl Khaelee Sanders saved, said character herself, Admiral Kohoku, his butchered marines and the poor sod from Overlord would like to have words with you.

Oh, wait.  HURRRRRRRR GRIMDARK!  It's all good!

By the way, "terrorist" is a general title given to things like actions taken against civilians and other such things that endanger the security of the state.  Cerb qualifies.

Modifié par Lord Coake, 02 janvier 2011 - 01:43 .


#117
Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams
  • Members
  • 996 messages

Lord Coake wrote...

The Asari abducted for biochemical research, the whole Sole Survivor background, the little girl Khaelee Sanders saved, said character herself, Admiral Kohoku, his butchered marines and the poor sod from Overlord would like to have words with you.

Oh, wait.  HURRRRRRRR GRIMDARK!  It's all good!

By the way, "terrorist" is a general title given to things like actions taken against civilians and other such things that endanger the security of the state.  Cerb qualifies.


Your boorishness does you no credit.

None of these acts qualify as they were not public. Terrorism requires inciting terror (keyword) to bring about social or political change. Cerberus had real, tactical reasons for these experiments.

#118
Lord Coake

Lord Coake
  • Members
  • 655 messages

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

The Asari abducted for biochemical research, the whole Sole Survivor background, the little girl Khaelee Sanders saved, said character herself, Admiral Kohoku, his butchered marines and the poor sod from Overlord would like to have words with you.

Oh, wait.  HURRRRRRRR GRIMDARK!  It's all good!

By the way, "terrorist" is a general title given to things like actions taken against civilians and other such things that endanger the security of the state.  Cerb qualifies.


Your boorishness does you no credit.

None of these acts qualify as they were not public. Terrorism requires inciting terror (keyword) to bring about social or political change. Cerberus had real, tactical reasons for these experiments.


Yeah.  To undermine the entirity of galactic civilization and leave the council in ruins.  I guess one could call cerberus "revolutionaries" but that would be giving them too much credit.

Keep trying, fangirl.  I've had this discussion enough to know every card you're going to attempt pulling.  You've already tried moral relativism and attempted philosophical meanderings about how ineffective laws are, with added emphasis on "real world" and "doing what must be done."  What are you going to try next?

#119
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 675 messages

Lord Coake wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Don't be sexist.

Also, as a curiosity, could you do the fandom a favor and list five acts of terrorism that would warrant the label for Cerberus? No one else really has been able to, not in a working and sensible definition of the word.


I would assume I am female based on my username if I didn't know me.

Oh, and here's a hint for listing acts of terrorism committed by Cerberus: you can't.


The Asari abducted for biochemical research, the whole Sole Survivor background, the little girl Khaelee Sanders saved, said character herself, Admiral Kohoku, his butchered marines and the poor sod from Overlord would like to have words with you.

Oh, wait.  HURRRRRRRR GRIMDARK!  It's all good!

Actually, it's just criminal. Not terrorism.

The thing about Terrorism is that it's big, it's noticable, and it's loud. It's to make a point. Cerberus operates as a cabal: no more legal, but a lot less flashy and headlines.

Asari abducted for biotic research is just that: abductions for criminal research. It didn't set off a galactic panic, nor was it aimed at pushing any political agenda by the Asari public or the government.

Besides the fact that the whole Sole Survivor background was a (black ops) sanctioned Alliance operation, it also doesn't qualify for terrorism. No one ever knew Cerberus was involved until Toombs escaped.

Admiral Kohaku was a cover up. His unit's death was a criminal doing, but it too lacked the necessary political and public ramnifications to be called terrorism. Cerberus's involvement couldn't even be linked until Kohaku received secret data from the Shadow Broker.

The Archer brothers were both Cerberus in the first place. It was neither terrorism against any public or government populace, nor was it even a crime against others outside of Cerberus.

By the way, "terrorist" is a general title given to things like actions taken against civilians and other such things that endanger the security of the state.  Cerb qualifies.

Since all people are technically either civilians or part of state security, and so any deaths would kill either civilians or harm a state's security, that's a meaningless definition.

Terrorism is using public intimidation, threats, violence, and the fear of violence to intimidate populations and governments to act and reach political goals.Cerberus really doesn't: by and large when it resorts to violence few people if anyone ever knows, and there is no public fear (or real public awareness) of it. One of the few defining features of terrorism is that it needs to be publicly known so that it can, well, terrorize anyone. When almost no one notices it's happening, it really isn't terrorism. Just... criminal.

Cerberus is a Cabal.

Keep trying, fangirl.  I've had this discussion enough to know every
card you're going to attempt pulling.  You've already tried moral
relativism and attempted philosophical meanderings about how ineffective
laws are, with added emphasis on "real world" and "doing what must be
done."  What are you going to try next?

Considering the quite objective crimes of the Council, Cerberus is still pretty far down the list of 'bad groups' even without moral relativism. Cerberus, after all, has only been involved in one genocide: the Collectors. The Council has utilized genocide as a matter of policy.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 janvier 2011 - 02:05 .


#120
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 675 messages

Lord Coake wrote...

Yeah.  To undermine the entirity of galactic civilization and leave the council in ruins.  I guess one could call cerberus "revolutionaries" but that would be giving them too much credit.

You'd think that'd be in their mission statement or something, instead of praising Shepard for saving the Council and getting Humanity interlinked with the Council.

Cerberus hasn't demonstrated any intent or attempt to 'undermine the entireity of galactic civilizaiton' OR leave the Council in ruins. Infact, it was instrumental in helping Jacob save the Council!

Cerberus is out to change the status quo for the Alliance's advantage. That's neither undermining galactic civilization nor necessitate leaving the Council in ruins: Shepard can do any of those very much without their influence at all.

#121
Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams
  • Members
  • 996 messages

Lord Coake wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

The Asari abducted for biochemical research, the whole Sole Survivor background, the little girl Khaelee Sanders saved, said character herself, Admiral Kohoku, his butchered marines and the poor sod from Overlord would like to have words with you.

Oh, wait.  HURRRRRRRR GRIMDARK!  It's all good!

By the way, "terrorist" is a general title given to things like actions taken against civilians and other such things that endanger the security of the state.  Cerb qualifies.


Your boorishness does you no credit.

None of these acts qualify as they were not public. Terrorism requires inciting terror (keyword) to bring about social or political change. Cerberus had real, tactical reasons for these experiments.


Yeah.  To undermine the entirity of galactic civilization and leave the council in ruins.  I guess one could call cerberus "revolutionaries" but that would be giving them too much credit.

Keep trying, fangirl.  I've had this discussion enough to know every card you're going to attempt pulling.  You've already tried moral relativism and attempted philosophical meanderings about how ineffective laws are, with added emphasis on "real world" and "doing what must be done."  What are you going to try next?


I apologize if I have said anything to offend you, but I find your tone unnecessarily hostile.

On topic, when has Cerberus attempted (or stated they desired) to "undermine the entirity[sic] of galactic civilization and leave the council in ruins"?

#122
Ajosraa

Ajosraa
  • Members
  • 852 messages

Eddo36 wrote...

Just read Retribution, and looks like he would be the perfect companion to a renegade Shepard.


I agree. I also read the book and think Kai Leng would be a interesting character to have in ME3. Either for Renegade shep to team with, or paragon shep to turn over to Aria possibly. So either squadmate or enemy I would find interesting. 

Sure he is a big jerk, but that is his character, a brutal and cold cerberus assassin. All those horrible acts help to illustrate his brutality, from killing Leslle to ripping the eye lids off of people during interrogation.

Also if they use Kai Leng in the Mass Effect movie they must use Jet Lee for the role;P

#123
Eddo36

Eddo36
  • Members
  • 1 491 messages
I think Jackie Chan would be better. Jet Li is all special effects.

#124
Zavox

Zavox
  • Members
  • 403 messages

Eddo36 wrote...

Don't forget Geth. They're a race, too.

Right, yet they hadn't passed the veil in 300 years, that's not enough reason to see them as a threat. That they did turn out a threat in Mass Effect 1 is something no-one could've foreseen. To say otherwise is hindsight. Seriously you can keep giving examples but none work. Stop trying.

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

So if a person of another race tries to kill me, I have the right to wipe out his entire race?

If there is no other alternative, then sadly, yes? The Rachni nor the Krogan ever gave any sign of wanting peace. (The Krogan did after the Genophage, seeing the hopelessness of continuing.)

What is your suggestion, to leave them be and wait for a resurgence in waractivities?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Smart ass? My my, some people just can't be civil when challenged.

The Turians didn't stop being dangerous when they stopped fighting. The Council didn't stop being a potential enemy even when they asked (told?) us to join up.

The funny thing about conflicts is that the only real time to prepare for them is before they start. If you only do
something when you need it or it's imminent, it's quite often too late. You don't look to drink during the middle of a long run, you don't look to study in the minutes before the test, and you don't start preparing for a war once it's already apparent.

Smartass is not really a rude word per se, It's commonly used when someone gives an argument as you did. (Look it up if you don't believe me). But fine, I'm sorry if I offended you, it wasn't my intention to do so.

They did stop being a threat. Commonly when you have an active embassy in someones country or in this case the citadel and heavy political ties, one doesn't expect war with said races.

One example would be the Baterians, those were a threat for a while (dealt with by the Alliance, mind you), there's no political activity or an embassy with them, is there? One closes their embassy and severs political ties if they are on bad terms with someone.

While true in some part, one doesn't prepare for conflict before it's suspected... In your view the United States of America would at the very moment prepare for war with the United Kingdom, because one could never know eh? Secondly, preparing for war, achieves only that, war. One good reason why the other races are so negative about Cerberus.

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Your boorishness does you no credit.

None of these acts qualify as they were not public. Terrorism requires inciting terror (keyword) to bring about social or political change. Cerberus had real, tactical reasons for these experiments.

Most of those acts qualify, for terrorism doesn't have to be public actually. If it solely encites terror in a government it's also labeled as terrorism. (WikiLeaks.) (Edit: Mind you, WikiLeaks is public, but I hope you get the message that that is not the point, the point is it being solely a terror for a government).

The main thing it needs to do, which you so rightly said is create terror for said organization. Isn't that exactly what the other races, and some humans, feel about Cerberus? What about the attack on the Migrant Fleet, that's no act of terrorism?

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

On topic, when has Cerberus attempted (or stated they desired) to "undermine the entirity[sic] of galactic civilization and leave the council in ruins"?

Their view and actions are based on a human first, above all else motto. Which is directly opposed to the view of the council. Add that to the criminal/terrorist acts they've done in the past to 'further' humanity, one can say they are terrorists to the council and races in general. I'd also like to add that one doesn't have to have a goal which wants to leave a race/country/council in ruins to be labeled as terrorists. (WikiLeaks).

Modifié par Zavox, 02 janvier 2011 - 12:37 .


#125
Eddo36

Eddo36
  • Members
  • 1 491 messages

Zavox wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

Don't forget Geth. They're a race, too.

Right, yet they hadn't passed the veil in 300 years, that's not enough reason to see them as a threat. That they did turn out a threat in Mass Effect 1 is something no-one could've foreseen. To say otherwise is hindsight. Seriously you can keep giving examples but none work. Stop trying.


Awww someone asking another to end a discussion. How cute. :P

Anyways, follow your "hindsight" and the universe won't be doomed as it would otherwise. Spoken like a true ME1 Councillor.

Modifié par Eddo36, 02 janvier 2011 - 02:48 .