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[Gabey5]

 what does he say if you go this route?

[jpdipity]

I believe Sarah1281 listed this dialogue not too long ago in a thread. I know the search feature sucks, but you may want to give it a try.



Otherwise, I'm sure she's already on it and you'll be getting a post shortly.

[Sarah1281]

I wasn't actually home but now that I am...



If you choose Bhelen after working for Harrowmont you get:

Bhelen: I... you leave me speechless. After all the venom we've spewed at each other... But I am honored you did what is right for your house. (VO: surprised and grateful)



And then back at the palace:

Bhelen: You have truly surprised me, Sister. (VO: friendly) You have earned the right to rejoin House Aeducan. (VO: warmly, almost sincere)

Without your aid, I would not have taken this throne so smoothly or so soon. (pleased)

*normal dialgoue*

Bhelen: You may recognize this. Trian used it to crack skulls when he was showing off for Father. I'm sure he'd want you to have it.

[Last Darkness]

Intrestingly enough Bhelen is the "Good" choice for who should be King. Harrowmont is really bad for the dwarves,



Also the True Grey Warden path through the game is Bhelen with the Anvil intact.

[Cypher0020]

I'm doing a DN run right now..... and I may not like the methods, but Beheln actually gives the casteless rights, and support... but at the cost of being a dictator....



plus...as a DN, I'd rather have my house stay in power and keep the crown for the Aeducan line.... Harrowmont.... just.... no....

[BHRamsay]

Also the True Grey Warden path through the game is Bhelen with the Anvil intact.

That is an interesting take on fifty plus hours of gameplay ... At the risk of turning this in one of THOSE threads, I'm dying to hear how leaving the anvil intact and I assume Branka alive to use it, is in any way a good move. The woman is clearly delusional and leaving her the anvil insures she will be a nagging and dangerous threat not just to Bhelan's rule but the ENTIRE surface world as well. :-)

[Elhanan]

BHRamsay wrote...

That is an interesting take on fifty plus hours of gameplay ... At the risk of turning this in one of THOSE threads, I'm dying to hear how leaving the anvil intact and I assume Branka alive to use it, is in any way a good move. The woman is clearly delusional and leaving her the anvil insures she will be a nagging and dangerous threat not just to Bhelan's rule but the ENTIRE surface world as well. :-)

Perhaps if one is looney enough to select the kin killing brother for the "good of Orzammar", then one may be brain damaged enough to allow the kin killing Paragon to remain breathing as well?....

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

BHRamsay wrote...

That is an interesting take on fifty plus hours of gameplay ... At the risk of turning this in one of THOSE threads, I'm dying to hear how leaving the anvil intact and I assume Branka alive to use it, is in any way a good move. The woman is clearly delusional and leaving her the anvil insures she will be a nagging and dangerous threat not just to Bhelan's rule but the ENTIRE surface world as well. :-)

Perhaps if one is looney enough to select the kin killing brother for the "good of Orzammar", then one may be brain damaged enough to allow the kin killing Paragon to remain breathing as well?....

Is it really called for to assume that picking Bhelen means that you or your character is crazy?  I mean 'brain damaged, really? Just the fact that he killed Trian (well, if you didn't) and then got you exiled isn't enough to mean that he's going to be horrible as king regardless of how you feel about how he behaves in the rest of the game.

The game doesn't let you kill Branka after she gives you the crown (and if you talk her into suicide, she takes the Anvil with her) so that maybe one day someone skilled enough to use it but less crazy can come along and use it. I think Branka being a threat to all of the surface world is a huge exaggeration. That really seems like a metagaming statement based on the fact that she kidnaps surfacers if Harrowmong is king. If that happens, though, Ferelden engages Orzammar in a short war over the matter which Orzammar apparently loses as iot gets even more cut off from the surface and presumably stops doing that.

Branka is just one woman. She may be crazy but her goal at no time ever seems to be personal power or a conquest of the surface. She wants glory and security for Orzammar and she thinks that the Anvil is the best way to do it. Given that golems won't get tainted by darkspawn and can kill far  more before they fall than the average dwarf, I would say that she is right. As long as Branka has a steady stream of volunteers, she is happy and no danger to anyone. One day, though, the volunteers will inevitably dry up. In this case, Harrowmont loses control of her but Ferelden easily beats her back and Bhelen probably had a plan in place for if/when the unstable paragon turned against him and chased her back to the Deep Roads where she's, again, not much of a threat to anybody.

That is metagaming, sure, but to me Harrowmont's claim that he simply doesn't want to be a strong king as well as the fact that he implies he would cede the throne to Bhelen if Branka said so means that he wouldn't be able to stop her if she got out of control. Bhelen, however, has shown skill in plotting, plenty of ruthlessness, and a want of any real esteem for paragons so I figured he would be fine...and he was.

[Glorfindel709]

Personally, as the Dwarf Noble I side with Bhelen.



A) Family comes before *all* others, even if that family is a murderous kinslayer who got me exiled. He played the game well, and I can't fault him for that.

Bhelen actually wants to fix many of the problems you encounter in Orzammar - the bigotry, hatred towards the casteless, poverty in dust town. His means may not be the best, but he certainly cares more for removing the stagnation than Harrowmont

C) He actually makes a firm commitment towards giving troops to fight the Blight.



The offer of reinstatement and paragonhood didnt hurt either >.> <.<

[BelgarathMTH]

I always pick Bhelen (though not as a dwarf noble) because of his support for caste system reform.



I always destroy the Anvil, because I believe the Supergolem when he says it will be used again to create slaves.



Plus, the whole idea of moving someone's consciousness into a mechanical body against their will just strikes me as blood-chillingly evil.

[jaikss]

BHRamsay wrote...

Also the True Grey Warden path through the game is Bhelen with the Anvil intact.

That is an interesting take on fifty plus hours of gameplay ... At the risk of turning this in one of THOSE threads, I'm dying to hear how leaving the anvil intact and I assume Branka alive to use it, is in any way a good move. The woman is clearly delusional and leaving her the anvil insures she will be a nagging and dangerous threat not just to Bhelan's rule but the ENTIRE surface world as well. :-)

Golems are very powerul and Branka has already agreed to provide the Warden with some to fight the Blight with,how is it anything but a good decision?

This is ofcourse assuming the "true grey warden path" refers to the whatever it takes to beat the darkspawn mentality,which would make morality of the golem creation aswell as how Branka uses the anvil after the Blight secondary.

[Last Darkness]

Cypher0020 wrote...

I'm doing a DN run right now..... and I may not like the methods, but Beheln actually gives the casteless rights, and support... but at the cost of being a dictator....

plus...as a DN, I'd rather have my house stay in power and keep the crown for the Aeducan line.... Harrowmont.... just.... no....

Some of the greatest and most progressive rulers in history were Dictators.

BHRamsay wrote...

Also the True Grey Warden path through the game is Bhelen with the Anvil intact.

That
is an interesting take on fifty plus hours of gameplay ... At the risk
of turning this in one of THOSE threads, I'm dying to hear how leaving
the anvil intact and I assume Branka alive to use it, is in any way a
good move. The woman is clearly delusional and leaving her the anvil
insures she will be a nagging and dangerous threat not just to Bhelan's
rule but the ENTIRE surface world as well. :-)

Priorities, The True Grey Warden Path through the game is all about the essence of being a Grey Warden which is doing what must be done to defeat the Blight at any cost. ANY COST.
Bhelen is more then happy to support the Wardens and fight aginst the Blight if you help him sort out the political problem. Branka supports the Wardens with Golems which are very effective against Dark Spawn.

Grey Wardens remind me of "The Dark Knight Batman". They are not the "White Wardens" afterall.

*Edit* Harrowmont with Golems completly screws the Dwarvern kingdoms while Bhelens is a much better outcome at least as a small bonus.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 01 janvier 2011 - 05:12 .

[Elhanan]

For me and my characters, there may not be a greater example of evil in the game than the Paragon called Branka. Being able to link saving her to the same kind of mind set as choosing Bhelen is just a nice perk; like dessert.

As for doing anything to stop the Blight, this ended with many of my characters. When they discovered the true cost of being made into a Warden (eg; bad dreams, death in 30 yrs, etc), my future troops were going to be fully informed. And in some respects, not doing so reminds me a bit of what happened with Caradin.

[jpdipity]

My DN always chooses Bhelen.

1 - As a dwarf, killing a brother and/or framing another as a means to the throne seems completely normal and commonplace in their political structure. My DN is usually pissed that he is outsmarted by his/her baby brother, but he/she does not hold the actual act against Bhelen and admires his/her baby brother for being able to pull off such a feat.

2 - There are rumors that Harrowmont may have poisoned your father. So, this could very well be a case where both candidates have blood on their hands. You can only guess the truth.

3 - Bhelen gives the DN a firm commitment of troops. Harrowmont promises nothing.

4 - Harrowmont fails at nearly everything - most importantly at keeping you from being exiled. He also fails to find you when asked by Endrin. So, my DN has little faith in his abilities to get anything accomplished let alone putting in a wayward assembly in its place.



Branka is never supported and the anvil is destroyed. She is looney and my Wardens never know if they can even trust her - look what trusting Branka did to Hespith... Most importantly, the Golems are too dangerous of a tool. Grey Wardens don't defeat the Blight at "any cost" - they may say that, but it's not true. They don't just conscript anyone - they conscript when it makes sense and it is not going to rock the boat too much. Perhaps if the Grey Wardens were able to secure the anvil for themselves, then the anvil should be saved. However, leaving the anvil in the hands of a mentally unstable dwarf who holds most dearly her own goals and is willing to risk anything to advance her own obsessions is not the smartest thing in my opinion.

[Sarah1281]

As for doing anything to stop the Blight, this ended with many of my characters. When they discovered the true cost of being made into a Warden (eg; bad dreams, death in 30 yrs, etc), my future troops were going to be fully informed.

Before the Joining? Good luck with recruitment. Being a GW must suck but having a few people live a rather crappy life does seem like a small price to pay compared to darkspawn ravaging unchecked during a Blight.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Before the Joining? Good luck with recruitment. Being a GW must suck but having a few people live a rather crappy life does seem like a small price to pay compared to darkspawn ravaging unchecked during a Blight.

Human Noble - House burning down while family and friends are murdered; probably no real complaints here.

Mage - Informed consent may prove useful in finding alternatives and cures. For now, my plan is another pinch of Ashes for myself. But some may view the freedom from the Chantry as worth the chance.

City Elves - city justice from those that raped and killed my people, or informed consent; no problems here.

Dalish Elf - dying from the Taint anyway; gives me thirty years to look for a cure.

Dwarven Noble/ Commoner - death via corrupt political system, or possible 30 years; sold.

The Mages are the only ones that might hold out based on game hooks, but they have little  to hope for currently.

As for Bhelen, I still only choose him when it saves Rica as a DC, or when I am playing with the meta-knowledge results as a possible precognative Warden.

[IanPolaris]

Even the mage is easily justifiable especially if you sided with Jowan:



Be sentenced to death for aiding a malificar, or join the Grey Wardens (and as a bonus get from out from under Chantry supervision....something that almost no circle mage can do otherwise).



Easy sell.



-Polaris

[Last Darkness]

To each there own as it is said. its not like any of us are right, correct or its the only real solutions to the problems in game.



Elhanan idea is a more heroic warden and thats all fine and good. I dont see why your arguing about it. Others the same applies.



jpdippity though. Where did you get the idea grey warden dont do nessary evils for the good of the whole and the entire purpose of their existance.

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

Even the mage is easily justifiable especially if you sided with Jowan:

Be sentenced to death for aiding a malificar, or join the Grey Wardens (and as a bonus get from out from under Chantry supervision....something that almost no circle mage can do otherwise).

Easy sell.-Polaris

True, but I have yet to side with him. In fact, I am rather happy to be moving upstairs at the time.

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Even the mage is easily justifiable especially if you sided with Jowan:

Be sentenced to death for aiding a malificar, or join the Grey Wardens (and as a bonus get from out from under Chantry supervision....something that almost no circle mage can do otherwise).

Easy sell.-Polaris

True, but I have yet to side with him. In fact, I am rather happy to be moving upstairs at the time.

Even if you side with Irving, Gregoire wants to arrest your mage and put you in protective custody (and Trial By the Chantry).  If that's how Irving is going to reward me for helping the circle, the Grey Wardens look pretty damn good even with the drawbacks.

-Polaris

[White_Buffalo94]

so you become a paragon if you help Bhelen as a dwarf Noble as well? That is far better than becoming king/queen!

[Pro_Consul]

Cypher0020 wrote...

I'm doing a DN run right now..... and I may not like the methods, but Beheln actually gives the casteless rights, and support... but at the cost of being a dictator....

A dictator? I would have to disagree here. Say, rather, that he wants to be a king, as in a REAL king, as opposed to just a figurehead elected by a parliament of wealthy and incompetent nobles which is what Harrowmont aspires to be.

I always get a kick out of how people today look at feudal cultures and see dictatorships instead of monarchies. The fact that someone wants to actually rule automatically makes him evil in their eyes. And yet they fail to see that people who run for elected office today are doing the exact same thing: trying to gain power, trying to rule. As for Bhelen's methods, fratricide, patricide, matricide....none of these things have ever been disqualifying acts when it comes to royalty in a feudal society; getting caught is, sorta like today. Anyway, Bhelen aspires to be Octavian, not Stalin.

[Elhanan]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

so you become a paragon if you help Bhelen as a dwarf Noble as well? That is far better than becoming king/queen!

Status gained with Harrowmont, too. Plus the relative peace of not having to dodge assassins sent from relatives.....

[Elhanan]

Pro_Consul wrote...

A dictator? I would have to disagree here. Say, rather, that he wants to be a king, as in a REAL king, as opposed to just a figurehead elected by a parliament of wealthy and incompetent nobles which is what Harrowmont aspires to be.

I always get a kick out of how people today look at feudal cultures and see dictatorships instead of monarchies. The fact that someone wants to actually rule automatically makes him evil in their eyes. And yet they fail to see that people who run for elected office today are doing the exact same thing: trying to gain power, trying to rule. As for Bhelen's methods, fratricide, patricide, matricide....none of these things have ever been disqualifying acts when it comes to royalty in a feudal society; getting caught is, sorta like today. Anyway, Bhelen aspires to be Octavian, not Stalin.

You may disagree, but that is canon per the Epilogue:

Siding with Bhelen and destroying the Anvil will cause Orzammar to come into a new age of prosperity at the expense of a dictatorship. Bhelen strengthens Orzammar's ties with the surface world. He also grants casteless greater rights and privileges in exchange for fighting the darkspawn. This policy allows Orzammar to reclaim lost territory, but it upsets the noble and warrior castes. After several failed assassination attempts, he dissolves the Assembly and rules alone.

And I never fail to be amazed at the ones that believe any means justify the ends, and oft revise history to do so,

[Pro_Consul]

Elhanan wrote...

You may disagree, but that is canon per the Epilogue:

Siding with Bhelen and destroying the Anvil will cause Orzammar to come into a new age of prosperity at the expense of a dictatorship. Bhelen strengthens Orzammar's ties with the surface world. He also grants casteless greater rights and privileges in exchange for fighting the darkspawn. This policy allows Orzammar to reclaim lost territory, but it upsets the noble and warrior castes. After several failed assassination attempts, he dissolves the Assembly and rules alone.

And I never fail to be amazed at the ones that believe any means justify the ends, and oft revise history to do so,

I never said the poster I was quoting was the only one who had the tendency to equate "monarchy" with "dictatorship". Clearly the writers thought this way as well. It reminds me of how historical movies today have to rewrite history to make it look like their antagonists are all freedom fighters. Braveheart shows Sir William Wallace fighting and dying for "freedom", when in reality he just wanted to trade an English monarchy for a Scottish one, not actually free anyone at all. And in King Arthur the title character is totally revamped and portrayed as fighting for the "freedom" of the Woads (by which I am sure they meant Picts) from the evil invaders, the Saxons. But when has a medieval "king" ever fought for the freedom of his own subjects? Never, that's when. If the subjects were "free" then they would not be under the rule of a feudal lord like a king.

As for your final thought there, I assume you meant to say ends justifying any means, rather than the other way round. And it is certainly true that historically and in the present day there are far too many people who believe this. On the other hand, there are also far too many people who judge the morality of other cultures based on the morality of their own culture. Unfortunately, morality tends to become a very malleable thing whenever survival is at stake, and cultures that lived closer to the line between life and death tended to have somewhat different views on morals than those of today, which live in relatively strong assurance of life and security. Try to remember that Augustus Caesar had been dead nearly two millenia before historians portrayed him anything less than an excellent and upstanding Roman emperor. It is only our modern culture that has at last started to look at him as a ruthless dictator and see that as a bad thing. Of course if it hadn't been for his ruthless ambition, the Dark Ages would likely have begun three centuries earlier than they did....hmm, there goes morality getting all squishy again.