Its pretty easy for Bhelen.
Since the warden killed the entire Carta off he offers really the only way to advance with his reforms.
Now the people who would go to the Carta fight the darkspawn and you know help society.
However much good that will do though... it will always be tainted by him having killed two rivals though. No matter how many spawn get killed or casteless rise to fame and out of poverty it wont matter because Bhelen is a big meanie.
Dwarf Noble Picking Bhelen
Débuté par
Gabey5
, déc. 30 2010 05:56
Retour en haut
#227
Posté 19 janvier 2011 - 05:37
KnightofPhoenix
-
- Members
- 21 527 messages
Giggles_Manically wrote...
Its pretty easy for Bhelen.
Since the warden killed the entire Carta off he offers really the only way to advance with his reforms.
Now the people who would go to the Carta fight the darkspawn and you know help society.
Precisely.
It's not only in Orzammar's interests, but also in the interest of House Aeducan. Every noble house patronises a warrior house. If Bhelen wants to secure Aeducan hegemony, he would want to be the sole provider for any kind of social benefits and advancement to the casteless, so that he would patronize them and make House Aeducan the most powerful House in Orzammar militarily. Perhaps that's even the first step towards a professionalized and centralised army under one authority (no noble houses defecting from the war effort / free riding / buck passing).
Having an independent organization providing an alternative to House Aeducan for the casteless is fundamentally against his interests.
#228
Posté 19 janvier 2011 - 05:37
LobselVith8
-
- Members
- 16 993 messages
Giggles_Manically wrote...
Its pretty easy for Bhelen.
Since the warden killed the entire Carta off he offers really the only way to advance with his reforms.
Now the people who would go to the Carta fight the darkspawn and you know help society.
However much good that will do though... it will always be tainted by him having killed two rivals though. No matter how many spawn get killed or casteless rise to fame and out of poverty it wont matter because Bhelen is a big meanie.
That's true; with the carta gone, Bhelen is their only option. I wonder what happens with Behrat's underground labyrinth for the carta. (Maybe it's where the independent Circle of Orzammar sets up shop after Dagna's research becomes public). At least there's this ending for the Harrowmont fans:
ejoslin wrote...
And everyone lived happily ever after!
Edit: Well, at least I amused myself
#229
Posté 19 janvier 2011 - 05:40
Giggles_Manically
-
- Members
- 13 708 messages
I wonder if Bhelen is going to go for the Marius style, or more the Imperial style for his casteless troops though?
Like give casteless troops actual homes in the Thaigs that they retake or just give them money so they can buy something where ever they want? The second sounds better since it is always pushing money through the system, while the second one relies on conquest too much.
Like give casteless troops actual homes in the Thaigs that they retake or just give them money so they can buy something where ever they want? The second sounds better since it is always pushing money through the system, while the second one relies on conquest too much.
#230
Posté 19 janvier 2011 - 05:52
KnightofPhoenix
-
- Members
- 21 527 messages
Giggles_Manically wrote...
I wonder if Bhelen is going to go for the Marius style, or more the Imperial style for his casteless troops though?
Like give casteless troops actual homes in the Thaigs that they retake or just give them money so they can buy something where ever they want? The second sounds better since it is always pushing money through the system, while the second one relies on conquest too much.
I think he'd do a mix of both. I don't think he would want Thaigs to be to dominated by individual noble houses.
I'd think he would like to spread his men accross, to insure that his authority is everywhere.
#231
Posté 19 janvier 2011 - 05:57
Giggles_Manically
-
- Members
- 13 708 messages
The most sound thing to do would be to raise warriors that were loyal to him up to Nobles, and bring casteless up to warrior rank for their actions.
Make a whole group of new nobles and warrior's all loyal to him. The old famalies wont be able to compete at all. Except for House Helmi who retakes Kal Sharok. But hey that is two dwarven cities now, unless Helmi starts a civil war over who is in charge....
Make a whole group of new nobles and warrior's all loyal to him. The old famalies wont be able to compete at all. Except for House Helmi who retakes Kal Sharok. But hey that is two dwarven cities now, unless Helmi starts a civil war over who is in charge....
#232
Posté 19 janvier 2011 - 05:59
mousestalker
-
- Members
- 16 945 messages
I'm writing a story where the backstory is that the dwarves are holding the line at the Dead Trenches. The favoured houses get the thaigs nearest Orzammar. The casteless eanr the opportunity to settle new thaigs along the line. The disfavoured Houses gets to resttle the old thaigs nearest the Dead Trenches, the bits in between will get resettled over time. This ties the unfaithful to the war as they really don't dare leave their homes to march on Orzammar.
One thing I must insist on with Bhelen is I don't see him giving anything to anyone. You earn it. What he gives the casteless is a chance to fight and die for Orzammar. Anything else they earn.
One thing I must insist on with Bhelen is I don't see him giving anything to anyone. You earn it. What he gives the casteless is a chance to fight and die for Orzammar. Anything else they earn.
#233
Posté 19 janvier 2011 - 06:00
KnightofPhoenix
-
- Members
- 21 527 messages
I don't think Bhelen is going to allow House Helmi to completely dominate Kal Hirol. I think he'd subtly undermine their position there and put a garrison of casteless. The official reason being to protect it from darkspawn incursions and further expansion.
Of course, Bhelen will still have to do a lot of politicking. But that's his area of expertise.
Of course, Bhelen will still have to do a lot of politicking. But that's his area of expertise.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 janvier 2011 - 06:02 .
#234
Posté 19 janvier 2011 - 06:02
Giggles_Manically
-
- Members
- 13 708 messages
The epilouge only said that House Helmi cleared a path to it and took the Thaig back.
It seems that noble houses in Orzamar have quite a bit of freedom militarily.
It seems that noble houses in Orzamar have quite a bit of freedom militarily.
#235
Posté 19 janvier 2011 - 06:03
KnightofPhoenix
-
- Members
- 21 527 messages
Giggles_Manically wrote...
The epilouge only said that House Helmi cleared a path to it and took the Thaig back.
It seems that noble houses in Orzamar have quite a bit of freedom militarily.
Like in Ferelden. Both are stupid systems.
I think Bhelen would take it slow and try to undermine that, via the casteless.
I really doubt Bhelen is just going to let Helmi take a Thaig all of their own and rule it semi-independently.
#236
Posté 19 janvier 2011 - 06:07
Giggles_Manically
-
- Members
- 13 708 messages
I hope he does not do something ****** like Endrin though.
HEY! We are in charge of you because I says so!
Honestly Kal Sharok has been seperate for how long and you tell them to get back into line?
HEY! We are in charge of you because I says so!
Honestly Kal Sharok has been seperate for how long and you tell them to get back into line?
#237
Posté 19 janvier 2011 - 06:09
KnightofPhoenix
-
- Members
- 21 527 messages
Someone who can pull off a Xanatos gambit perfectly would not likely do something stupid like that, unless backed into a corner.
He is afterall "subtle as sin".
But of course all that doesn't make him "much of a king" for people who live in wonderland.
He is afterall "subtle as sin".
But of course all that doesn't make him "much of a king" for people who live in wonderland.
#238
Posté 19 janvier 2011 - 06:20
Giggles_Manically
-
- Members
- 13 708 messages
Yep.
People seem to want a modern leader in a medieval setting.
That just will not work.
So yeah Bhelen may be a little bastard with no "principles" like Harrowmont.
He does however have a plan and the will to carry it out, and in the end that is what matters the most.
People seem to want a modern leader in a medieval setting.
That just will not work.
So yeah Bhelen may be a little bastard with no "principles" like Harrowmont.
He does however have a plan and the will to carry it out, and in the end that is what matters the most.
#239
Posté 20 janvier 2011 - 02:13
AbsolutGrndZer0
-
- Members
- 1 578 messages
On my playthrough with a Dwarf Noble (was on my 360, I now have the PC version instead) I was ruthless and killed Trian myself wanting the throne, then when Gorim talked about what Bhelen did, my comment was something like "He outplayed me. You have to respect that." and I put him on the throne because of it on that character.
#240
Posté 28 janvier 2011 - 09:52
Pro_Consul
-
- Members
- 481 messages
If we are talking role-playing, then the question really comes down to how you want to RP your DN. I see four primary RP paths (though of course there are plenty of others):
1. You can RP him as a gormless Pollyanna who wants the Dwarven nobility to suddenly change from the selfish, backstabbing infighters they have always been into a bunch of ethically minded public servants. This mode is in keeping with the origin path that has you refusing to kill Trian and then being shocked and surprised that Bhelen turns on both you AND Trian simultaneously. This would be consistent with a Harrowmont supporter.
2. You can be the hyper-realist "good one, bro" kinda DN, as Absolut pointed out, and pick Bhelen because you respect his superior politicking (in the Dwarven sense) skills.
3. You can pick the vengeful, single-minded DN who doesn't care what's best for the Dwarves or the Wardens as long as the guy who crossed you ends up as a smear on your war hammer. Obviously Harrowmont is your only option here, though by rights you should wanna whack him, too, for failing to even try to get you a trial when you were jailed.
4. Or you can pick the dutiful Warden, who makes his choice based solely on what best serves the cause of the Wardens, i.e. ending this Blight and, if possible, laying groundwork for future Wardens to have an easier time of it in the next Blight. This option seems to lean much more toward picking Bhelen, since he actually makes a firm promise of troops and seems to already have a plan on how to keep that promise, whereas Harrowmont is an obvious tool and won't even commit himself beyond promising to whine to the Council on your behalf even though as king he would be within his rights to simply order it since it is a time of Blight.
So in my view there are valid RP reasons for going either way as a DN, depending on what kind of character you are trying to RP.
1. You can RP him as a gormless Pollyanna who wants the Dwarven nobility to suddenly change from the selfish, backstabbing infighters they have always been into a bunch of ethically minded public servants. This mode is in keeping with the origin path that has you refusing to kill Trian and then being shocked and surprised that Bhelen turns on both you AND Trian simultaneously. This would be consistent with a Harrowmont supporter.
2. You can be the hyper-realist "good one, bro" kinda DN, as Absolut pointed out, and pick Bhelen because you respect his superior politicking (in the Dwarven sense) skills.
3. You can pick the vengeful, single-minded DN who doesn't care what's best for the Dwarves or the Wardens as long as the guy who crossed you ends up as a smear on your war hammer. Obviously Harrowmont is your only option here, though by rights you should wanna whack him, too, for failing to even try to get you a trial when you were jailed.
4. Or you can pick the dutiful Warden, who makes his choice based solely on what best serves the cause of the Wardens, i.e. ending this Blight and, if possible, laying groundwork for future Wardens to have an easier time of it in the next Blight. This option seems to lean much more toward picking Bhelen, since he actually makes a firm promise of troops and seems to already have a plan on how to keep that promise, whereas Harrowmont is an obvious tool and won't even commit himself beyond promising to whine to the Council on your behalf even though as king he would be within his rights to simply order it since it is a time of Blight.
So in my view there are valid RP reasons for going either way as a DN, depending on what kind of character you are trying to RP.
#241
Posté 30 janvier 2011 - 08:01
Warrior61
-
- Members
- 58 messages
I find Bhelen to be the more powerful man here. Zev sums it all up when he basically says "Harrowmant's a wuss, lets go find this Bhelen guy."
Bhelen actually has the 'golems' to defy the council. Harrowmant only promises to ask the council for permission, Bhelen promises to actually do it. His methods can be dark, but Harrowmant is an example of how being a nice guy gets your city cut off from the world.
Golems are also just to powerful to let go. They are hands down the most powerful army in the game. You only get four, but they can destroy Ogres in one-on-one combat. Having an army of them would be invaluable against the Darkspawn, especially so on pushing them back in the Deep Roads.
Bhelen actually has the 'golems' to defy the council. Harrowmant only promises to ask the council for permission, Bhelen promises to actually do it. His methods can be dark, but Harrowmant is an example of how being a nice guy gets your city cut off from the world.
Golems are also just to powerful to let go. They are hands down the most powerful army in the game. You only get four, but they can destroy Ogres in one-on-one combat. Having an army of them would be invaluable against the Darkspawn, especially so on pushing them back in the Deep Roads.
