240 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

I can give the best reason of all for any warden including a Dwarf Noble for picking Bhelen. When you talk with both of them (and it is possible), Bhelan gives you an explicit and emphatic endorsement of your treater. Come hell or high water, you put him on the throne, you WILL get your troops.



By contrast all Harrowmount promises to do is ask the Assembly, "Pretty please could our friend the Grey Warden have a few troops".



GIven the contrast, there is in my mind no question who a Grey Warden acting as a Grey Warden should support.



-Polaris

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Before the Joining? Good luck with recruitment. Being a GW must suck but having a few people live a rather crappy life does seem like a small price to pay compared to darkspawn ravaging unchecked during a Blight.

Human Noble - House burning down while family and friends are murdered; probably no real complaints here.

Mage - Informed consent may prove useful in finding alternatives and cures. For now, my plan is another pinch of Ashes for myself. But some may view the freedom from the Chantry as worth the chance.

City Elves - city justice from those that raped and killed my people, or informed consent; no problems here.

Dalish Elf - dying from the Taint anyway; gives me thirty years to look for a cure.

Dwarven Noble/ Commoner - death via corrupt political system, or possible 30 years; sold.

The Mages are the only ones that might hold out based on game hooks, but they have little  to hope for currently.

As for Bhelen, I still only choose him when it saves Rica as a DC, or when I am playing with the meta-knowledge results as a possible precognative Warden.

What? Are you saying that because the Warden themself probably would have joined anyway, it's a good idea to tell people that don't happen to have such dire reasons for joining everything? Most people aren't going to have their lives destroyed like that and thus have to join.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

so you become a paragon if you help Bhelen as a dwarf Noble as well? That is far better than becoming king/queen!

Status gained with Harrowmont, too. Plus the relative peace of not having to dodge assassins sent from relatives.....

Correction: the relative peace of not expecting to have to dodge assassins sent from relatives. There is no proof that Bhelen makes any further attempts on your life.

[testing123]

IanPolaris wrote...

I can give the best reason of all for any warden including a Dwarf Noble for picking Bhelen. When you talk with both of them (and it is possible), Bhelan gives you an explicit and emphatic endorsement of your treater. Come hell or high water, you put him on the throne, you WILL get your troops.

By contrast all Harrowmount promises to do is ask the Assembly, "Pretty please could our friend the Grey Warden have a few troops".

GIven the contrast, there is in my mind no question who a Grey Warden acting as a Grey Warden should support.

-Polaris

That's an interesting point.  I don't know why I'd never noticed it before.  Must have gotten lost in all of the other examples of Harrowmont being weak and Bhelen being strong.

[Elhanan]

Guess I missed this too, admist the fake documents I was asked to use or plant against Harrowmont. I mean, if Harrowmont is so weak, why is Bhelen having to cheat to win? Or why does he sweat it at all? Because it is is his nature to murder, lie, cheat, more murder, etc.

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

Guess I missed this too, admist the fake documents I was asked to use or plant against Harrowmont. I mean, if Harrowmont is so weak, why is Bhelen having to cheat to win? Or why does he sweat it at all? Because it is is his nature to murder, lie, cheat, more murder, etc.

Well, in complete fairness, it might not be Bhelen but Varton Gavorg that is doing the heavy lifting.  It seems to be his modus operandi (VG's) to use fake documents.  I don't think Bhelen cares as long as the job gets done....and you can completely hose VG (by having the shaparate investigate the Gavorns) and still get both conversations and side with Bhelen.

I think it's worthwhile for at least one game to talk with both people.  The way that made the most sense to me RPwise was to play an outsider warden (although a DN works very well too for this), who initially sides with Harrowmount either because he dislikes/distrusts Bhelen (DN appropriate) or is angry about being lied to by Varton Gavorg vis a vis the counterfeits.  Then you talk with Harrowmount and he gives his bullpucky story about if he's king he'll ask the assembly pretty please for your TROOPS?!?  It was at this point (for my good wardens) that Harrowmount just lost an ally.....but I had to be sure Bhelen was better...so I arranged to speak with him (price to do that is to double-cross Harrowmount).  When Bhelen says, "By the mail of my ancesters, you will have your troops" it was game over.  Bhelen just got a warden ally.

-Polaris

[testing123]

Elhanan wrote...

Guess I missed this too, admist the fake documents I was asked to use or plant against Harrowmont. I mean, if Harrowmont is so weak, why is Bhelen having to cheat to win? Or why does he sweat it at all? Because it is is his nature to murder, lie, cheat, more murder, etc.

Well, if the assembly knows what is good for them personally, they should be almost universally backing Harrowmont.  A weak leader is more easily manipulated by them than a strong one, not to mention the fact that Bhelen ultimately dissolves the assembly.  Although it isn't necessarily clear in the game, this could be a reason Bhelen finds himself facing a larger challenge than anticipated.  

[IanPolaris]

jvee wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Guess I missed this too, admist the fake documents I was asked to use or plant against Harrowmont. I mean, if Harrowmont is so weak, why is Bhelen having to cheat to win? Or why does he sweat it at all? Because it is is his nature to murder, lie, cheat, more murder, etc.

Well, if the assembly knows what is good for them personally, they should be almost universally backing Harrowmont.  A weak leader is more easily manipulated by them than a strong one, not to mention the fact that Bhelen ultimately dissolves the assembly.  Although it isn't necessarily clear in the game, this could be a reason Bhelen finds himself facing a larger challenge than anticipated.  

I'm sure if it.  If you do the Dwarf Noble background, you find at that time, Prince Bhelen is the darling of the Assembly with overwhelming support...enough that the Assembly is willing to overlook and overturn centuries of tradition to exile his brother essentially on Bhelen's say so.  As Nerav (of house Helmi) puts it, his support has declined drastically in the last year to a near 50-50 proposition.  Best guess (and Nerav seems to imply this as well), a critical mass of Assemblymen have realized just what a Tiger they have in Prince Bhelen and have coalesced around his main rival (and the one who never trusted him), i.e. Lord Harrowmount.

From what I gather, it seems the Assembly has rules of protocol and procedure much like (for example) the US Senate and while it might take a bare majority to become king, actually getting enough votes to stop debate and actually HOLD the vote might require substantially more than a simple majority (for example in the US senate, you need sixty out of 100 votes to stop debate in order to hold a final vote).

-Polaris

[Pro_Consul]

jvee wrote...

Well, if the assembly knows what is good for them personally, they should be almost universally backing Harrowmont. 

True enough. But it is not at all uncommon to find politicians who do NOT always know what is good for them, or who cannot see far enough ahead to see when a short term gain carries a long term price tag they should be avoiding.

In any case, I think Polaris summed it up pretty strongly: the DN Warden is looking past his own history to do what is best from the PoV of the Wardens.

[Sarah1281]

At the start of the game, everyone is convinced that the Aeducans will continue holding power indefinitely. There have been nine Aeducan kings already and they're still going strong. Harrowmont is the first chance they have of forcing the Aeducans off the throne and if he's as weak as he appears then once he dies, his heir need not be necessarily approved as well and another house can take the throne. THAT has always been what I've seen as a driving force behind most of his supporters.

[KendallX23]

I've never chosen Bhelen...don't like the guy...well if i ever played an evil char then i will chose him...until then...

[IanPolaris]

KendallX23 wrote...

I've never chosen Bhelen...don't like the guy...well if i ever played an evil char then i will chose him...until then...

Far be it to tell you what to do, but choosing Bhelen is justifiable even as a light Grey (i.e. "good") warden.  It might be worth trying once just to see how the game plays out.

-Polaris

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

Well, in complete fairness, it might not be Bhelen but Varton Gavorg that is doing the heavy lifting.  It seems to be his modus operandi (VG's) to use fake documents.  I don't think Bhelen cares as long as the job gets done....and you can completely hose VG (by having the shaparate investigate the Gavorns) and still get both conversations and side with Bhelen.

I think it's worthwhile for at least one game to talk with both people.  The way that made the most sense to me RPwise was to play an outsider warden (although a DN works very well too for this), who initially sides with Harrowmount either because he dislikes/distrusts Bhelen (DN appropriate) or is angry about being lied to by Varton Gavorg vis a vis the counterfeits.  Then you talk with Harrowmount and he gives his bullpucky story about if he's king he'll ask the assembly pretty please for your TROOPS?!?  It was at this point (for my good wardens) that Harrowmount just lost an ally.....but I had to be sure Bhelen was better...so I arranged to speak with him (price to do that is to double-cross Harrowmount).  When Bhelen says, "By the mail of my ancesters, you will have your troops" it was game over.  Bhelen just got a warden ally.-Polaris

Sorry, but I shall not be trusting the word of a nug that swears on the very mail he killed to obtain. Even when I allow him to occasionally take the throne, I am left in a decent position to take him out if the need arises. Maybe I can call another dragon from the throne; rather fitting way to end his rule.

Whether or not the false documents are directly from Bhelen or not, he is complicit in their usage; not to mention guilty of poor upper Mgt skills in allowing VG to continue making such errors. And Bhelen seems to be directly tied to the murders of his own family, so most of the time my Wardens take a pass on him as King.

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

Sorry, but I shall not be trusting the word of a nug that swears on the very mail he killed to obtain. Even when I allow him to occasionally take the throne, I am left in a decent position to take him out if the need arises. Maybe I can call another dragon from the throne; rather fitting way to end his rule.

Whether or not the false documents are directly from Bhelen or not, he is complicit in their usage; not to mention guilty of poor upper Mgt skills in allowing VG to continue making such errors. And Bhelen seems to be directly tied to the murders of his own family, so most of the time my Wardens take a pass on him as King.

First of all, there is no evidence that Bhelen killed his father (or at least as much that Harrowmount may have).  His brothers are a different story of course, but don't make Bhelen out to be more of a monster than he really is.  As for being complicit in the fake documents, sure.  Never said otherwise, but I really do think it's VG's operation, and Bhelen doesn't really care except when it comes to results.

In the second place, you don't have to take Bhelen's word as to who will provide troops and who will waffle.  If you talk to the Shaper of Memories, he specifically talks about how Prince Bhelen was looking to the example of King Bemot (last king of Orzammar during a blight) and how he suspended the Assembly in order to better fight the blight.  From the PoV of a Grey Warden, this is the sort of king you want.  It's Harrowmount's waffling about providing troops that turned even my 'good' wardens against him.

-Polaris

[Sarah1281]

Whether or not the false documents are directly from Bhelen or not, he is complicit in their usage; not to mention guilty of poor upper Mgt skills in allowing VG to continue making such errors.

What errors? I find it perfectly plausible that Bhelen doesn't know the details of every small thing Vartag does to try and help him take the throne though I'm sure if he knew he wouldn't have a problem with it. Are you referring to the potential the fraudulent letters have of backfiring if you blow the whistle or had Lady Dace or Lord Helmi felt the need to check the authenticity?



What is the worst that can happen? Vartag Gavorn gets investigated and Helmi and Dace stay with Harrowmong. Bhelen's not really losing any support and I'm sure he's long since resigned himself to using Vartag as a fall guy if he needed one.



As to why Bhelen is active at all instead of passively waiting for the throne to be given to him...well, there's more of a chance he'll get the throne if he works for it (and faster. He's quite impatient he's been waiting weeks already) and if he does nothing it will help convince those that wonder if Harrowmont can take the throne from the Aeducans that he can.

[Gabey5]

IanPolaris wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Sorry, but I shall not be trusting the word of a nug that swears on the very mail he killed to obtain. Even when I allow him to occasionally take the throne, I am left in a decent position to take him out if the need arises. Maybe I can call another dragon from the throne; rather fitting way to end his rule.

Whether or not the false documents are directly from Bhelen or not, he is complicit in their usage; not to mention guilty of poor upper Mgt skills in allowing VG to continue making such errors. And Bhelen seems to be directly tied to the murders of his own family, so most of the time my Wardens take a pass on him as King.

First of all, there is no evidence that Bhelen killed his father (or at least as much that Harrowmount may have).  His brothers are a different story of course, 
-Polaris

he is monster enough to get rid of his brothers, it isnt a stretch to assume he posioned the old man

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

What errors? I find it perfectly plausible that Bhelen doesn't know the details of every small thing Vartag does to try and help him take the throne though I'm sure if he knew he wouldn't have a problem with it. Are you referring to the potential the fraudulent letters have of backfiring if you blow the whistle or had Lady Dace or Lord Helmi felt the need to check the authenticity?

Followed quickly by granting even more evidence of political misconduct with the false papers supposed to be placed in Jarvia's clubhouse.

What is the worst that can happen? Vartag Gavorn gets investigated and Helmi and Dace stay with Harrowmong. Bhelen's not really losing any support and I'm sure he's long since resigned himself to using Vartag as a fall guy if he needed one.

As to why Bhelen is active at all instead of passively waiting for the throne to be given to him...well, there's more of a chance he'll get the throne if he works for it (and faster. He's quite impatient he's been waiting weeks already) and if he does nothing it will help convince those that wonder if Harrowmont can take the throne from the Aeducans that he can.

The only reason Bhelen might be impatient is that it took even more time to kill/remove his family to get in this position in the first place, and the Warden starts to work with the opposition.

Personally, I treasure being able to work for Bhelen as his surviving brother, and simply hand Harrowmont the crown, and let this stain of Orzammar remain on the floor of the Assemby.

[IanPolaris]

Gabey5 wrote...

he is monster enough to get rid of his brothers, it isnt a stretch to assume he posioned the old man

Actually it isn't a stretch that either of them poisoned Endrin.  We are essentially told that it's perfectly normal for Dwarven Kings to be assassinated so I don't think it proves much one way or the other.

Neither is a candidate for "Good Guy of the Year".

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

What errors? I find it perfectly plausible that Bhelen doesn't know the details of every small thing Vartag does to try and help him take the throne though I'm sure if he knew he wouldn't have a problem with it. Are you referring to the potential the fraudulent letters have of backfiring if you blow the whistle or had Lady Dace or Lord Helmi felt the need to check the authenticity?

Followed quickly by granting even more evidence of political misconduct with the false papers supposed to be placed in Jarvia's clubhouse.

Again done according to the instructions of Vortag Gavorg.  It's prefectly reaqsonable that Bhelen doesn't know and doesn't want to know the details.  Also we don't know that these papers are false (we don't know they are genuine either).  If you do it the otherway, Harrowmount asks you to plant papers implicating Bhelen as well....

What is the worst that can happen? Vartag Gavorn gets investigated and Helmi and Dace stay with Harrowmong. Bhelen's not really losing any support and I'm sure he's long since resigned himself to using Vartag as a fall guy if he needed one.

As to why Bhelen is active at all instead of passively waiting for the throne to be given to him...well, there's more of a chance he'll get the throne if he works for it (and faster. He's quite impatient he's been waiting weeks already) and if he does nothing it will help convince those that wonder if Harrowmont can take the throne from the Aeducans that he can.

The only reason Bhelen might be impatient is that it took even more time to kill/remove his family to get in this position in the first place, and the Warden starts to work with the opposition.

Bhelen believes that if you want something you work for it.  This is actually a goodf thing for a potential ruler.  It's what makes him a strong king.  Take Zevrem with you in Orzammar sometime and see what he has to say about Harrowmount.  Zev has Harrowmount pegged dead centre.

Personally, I treasure being able to work for Bhelen as his surviving brother, and simply hand Harrowmont the crown, and let this stain of Orzammar remain on the floor of the Assemby.

And in so doing for your own personal moral satisfaction, you at best condemn Orzammar to a slow death by stagnation, and at worst cause a war with Fereldan because Dwarves are too good to be sacrificed to make Golems out of.  In any case an overty 'evil" Caste system and social rigidity is maintained.

So congratutions.  For your own personal satisfaction, you condemn Ozarmmar to a slow death....and this is not metagaming.  Orznammar needs to reform, and if you do your research only one candidate is a reformer.

-Polaris

[Sarah1281]

Followed quickly by granting even more evidence of political misconduct with the false papers supposed to be placed in Jarvia's clubhouse.

Where is the proof that any of that came from Vartag, much less Bhelen? Harrowmont and company will likely believe you but there isn't any proof of it. If the documents are revealed to be fake then why couldn't they, for instance, have been planted by Harrowmont's men with the intention of them being discovered as forgeries so that Bhelen looks like he's caught being dishonorable?

[Sarah1281]

If you do it the otherway, Harrowmount asks you to plant papers implicating Bhelen as well....

Actually, he wants you to recover papers that are already there (though why they aren't there if you don't do that particular mission is beyond me).

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

Again done according to the instructions of Vortag Gavorg.  It's prefectly reaqsonable that Bhelen doesn't know and doesn't want to know the details.  Also we don't know that these papers are false (we don't know they are genuine either).  If you do it the otherway, Harrowmount asks you to plant papers implicating Bhelen as well....

Bhelen believes that if you want something you work for it.  This is actually a goodf thing for a potential ruler.  It's what makes him a strong king.  Take Zevrem with you in Orzammar sometime and see what he has to say about Harrowmount.  Zev has Harrowmount pegged dead centre.

Work? If you mean scheme, murder, cheat, and deceive, then I guess you can call the nugdropping a busy little bee. And as for Zev, this is when he is sent back to camp as I am not real fond of his insider POV.

And in so doing for your own personal moral satisfaction, you at best condemn Orzammar to a slow death by stagnation, and at worst cause a war with Fereldan because Dwarves are too good to be sacrificed to make Golems out of.  In any case an overty 'evil" Caste system and social rigidity is maintained.

So congratutions.  For your own personal satisfaction, you condemn Ozarmmar to a slow death....and this is not metagaming.  Orznammar needs to reform, and if you do your research only one candidate is a reformer.-Polaris

Slow death? My Warden gains their own House and Paragon status, and can aid reform properly and legally; not by taking everyone's toys and usurping the sandbox. As for those second set of papers, the Warden knows their origin which is all the proof he/she requires to make the last call for the Crown. And in the vast majority of my games, this ain't Bhelen.

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Again done according to the instructions of Vortag Gavorg.  It's prefectly reaqsonable that Bhelen doesn't know and doesn't want to know the details.  Also we don't know that these papers are false (we don't know they are genuine either).  If you do it the otherway, Harrowmount asks you to plant papers implicating Bhelen as well....

Bhelen believes that if you want something you work for it.  This is actually a goodf thing for a potential ruler.  It's what makes him a strong king.  Take Zevrem with you in Orzammar sometime and see what he has to say about Harrowmount.  Zev has Harrowmount pegged dead centre.

Work? If you mean scheme, murder, cheat, and deceive, then I guess you can call the nugdropping a busy little bee. And as for Zev, this is when he is sent back to camp as I am not real fond of his insider POV.

Which in Orzammar is called, "The usual politics".  Seriously.

And in so doing for your own personal moral satisfaction, you at best condemn Orzammar to a slow death by stagnation, and at worst cause a war with Fereldan because Dwarves are too good to be sacrificed to make Golems out of.  In any case an overty 'evil" Caste system and social rigidity is maintained.

So congratutions.  For your own personal satisfaction, you condemn Ozarmmar to a slow death....and this is not metagaming.  Orznammar needs to reform, and if you do your research only one candidate is a reformer.-Polaris

Slow death? My Warden gains their own House and Paragon status, and can aid reform properly and legally; not by taking everyone's toys and usurping the sandbox. As for those second set of papers, the Warden knows their origin which is all the proof he/she requires to make the last call for the Crown. And in the vast majority of my games, this ain't Bhelen.

Sure, and you can even get one other (Deshyr Helmi...the greatest disgrace of the Assembly) to vote along with you while you are always outvoted by the other 78 votes.  Seriously, putting Harrowmount on the throne aggravates a terrible caste situation and dooms Orzammar to a slow death because Orzammar needs to change if it's going to fight the Darkspawn and win (it's been slowly losing for centuries) and you aren't enough by yourself...especially if you backed a King that doesn't have a backbone (and Harrowmount doesn't).

You might not like what Zev has to say, but Zev is basically correct.

-Polaris

[caradoc2000]

DN warden supporting Bhelen to be king of Orzammar is the equivalent of HN warden supporting Arl Howe to be king of Ferelden. Not going to happen in my games.

[testing123]

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually it isn't a stretch that either of them poisoned Endrin.  We are essentially told that it's perfectly normal for Dwarven Kings to be assassinated so I don't think it proves much one way or the other.

Neither is a candidate for "Good Guy of the Year".

-Polaris

Bhelen and Harrowmont could hardly be considered equals under conventional ethics.  

And it is a bit of a stretch to assume that Harrowmont murdered Endrin.  He had access to be sure.  But does he seem like the sort to do anything outside of the assembly?  If he murders Endrin, he puts himself at odds with Bhelen and removes one of his greatest allies.  Regardless of whether you believe that trust was warranted, Endrin certainly did have great faith in Harrowmont and asked him to perform tasks he refused to leave in the hands of anyone else close to him.  Beyond that, all circumstantial evidence points towards Bhelen.  Are we honestly to believe that Bhelen murdered and exiled two of the people between him and the throne, and then inexplicably stopped? 

Bhelen believes that if you want something you work for it.  This is actually a goodf thing for a potential ruler.  It's what makes him a strong king.  Take Zevrem with you in Orzammar sometime and see what he has to say about Harrowmount.  Zev has Harrowmount pegged dead centre.

To be fair, when Zevran makes his comment Bhelen is hiding away like a coward just the same as Harrowmont.  I certainly think he has him pegged, but his criticism rings hollow when delivered.