240 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

Which in Orzammar is called, "The usual politics".  Seriously.

Which is why I often cast Storm during the Assembly when playing a mage, but I digress. Simply because it is the norm does not mean it should be.

Sure, and you can even get one other (Deshyr Helmi...the greatest disgrace of the Assembly) to vote along with you while you are always outvoted by the other 78 votes.  Seriously, putting Harrowmount on the throne aggravates a terrible caste situation and dooms Orzammar to a slow death because Orzammar needs to change if it's going to fight the Darkspawn and win (it's been slowly losing for centuries) and you aren't enough by yourself...especially if you backed a King that doesn't have a backbone (and Harrowmount doesn't).

You might not like what Zev has to say, but Zev is basically correct.-Polaris

And I will take Helmi and others willing to join my House over those in opposition every time we vote. Radical change tends towards radicals remaining; not my top choice.

As for Zev, he may see things a la Bhelen, but it does not make him correct. It simply tells me that an assassin knows his own kind.

[Sarah1281]

caradoc2000 wrote...

DN warden supporting Bhelen to be king of Orzammar is the equivalent of HN warden supporting Arl Howe to be king of Ferelden. Not going to happen in my games.

The hell it is. Bhelen did an expected if immoral political scheme where he tried to get you and Trian to kill each other off and if that fails, he had Trian assassinated and either way you're exiled. This is really business as usual in Orzammar and he does it for the throne.

Arl Howe has a castleful of innocent people including the family of one of his closest friend's killed for no readily explainable reason besides he just was sick of being Arl and wanted to usurp a teynir.

They might both never end up happening in your games but it's a horrible comparison.

[IanPolaris]

jvee wrote...

Bhelen and Harrowmont could hardly be considered equals under conventional ethics.  

I never said they were.  I did say that both were successful politicos as Dwarves play politics and pretty much by definition, it means both are dirty.  In fact if you ask around, that's pretty much the scoop you get.  Harrowmount is a nicer person perhaps but Bhelan wants it more and is clever as sin (as Lord Helmi put it...and that was a complement).

And it is a bit of a stretch to assume that Harrowmont murdered Endrin.  He had access to be sure.  But does he seem like the sort to do anything outside of the assembly?  If he murders Endrin, he puts himself at odds with Bhelen and removes one of his greatest allies.  Regardless of whether you believe that trust was warranted, Endrin certainly did have great faith in Harrowmont and asked him to perform tasks he refused to leave in the hands of anyone else close to him.  Beyond that, all circumstantial evidence points towards Bhelen.  Are we honestly to believe that Bhelen murdered and exiled two of the people between him and the throne, and then inexplicably stopped? 

Not really.  We don't know what Endrin said or didn't say.  We know that he was sick over the loss of his second (and favorite) son, but we have no reliable and neutral person that can say for sure what Endrin wished.  In this, Prince Bhelen is quite right.  Given that most of the nobles believe that Endrin did wish things as you say (and that certainly is the perception in the warrior and noble castes I agree), then it actually does give Harrowmount a motive to poison Endrin if he can be sure it can't be traced to him.  I note in passing that the poisoned lady happened in the Palace in the Royal Wing were Bhelen and not Harrowmount and his supporters are staying.

Just saying.

Bhelen believes that if you want something you work for it.  This is actually a goodf thing for a potential ruler.  It's what makes him a strong king.  Take Zevrem with you in Orzammar sometime and see what he has to say about Harrowmount.  Zev has Harrowmount pegged dead centre.

To be fair, when Zevran makes his comment Bhelen is hiding away like a coward just the same as Harrowmont.  I certainly think he has him pegged, but his criticism rings hollow when delivered.

Not really.  Sure Bhelen is being cautious about meeting you, but look beyond that and examine what Zev says in depth.  Bhelen wants to be king, so he has his lieutant (VG) ask you to aggressively change the minds of two important Deshyr families (Dace and Helmi).  Bhelen goes on offense and does it in a way that it can't be linked back to him.  What does Dulin ne' Harrowmount ask you to do?  He asks you to put a spine back in Harrowmounts own fighters in the Proving and give Harrowmount more political cover by fighting in his name because his own people are chickening out.  That's defense.

Pretty clear who wants it more.  However, the piece de resistance is that even after you do as Dulin asks, Harrowmount STILL wan't give an unconditional promise to uphold your treaty....and Bhelen does.  From the PoV of a Grey Warden that's really all you need to know.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

And I will take Helmi and others willing to join my House over those in opposition every time we vote. Radical change tends towards radicals remaining; not my top choice.

As for Zev, he may see things a la Bhelen, but it does not make him correct. It simply tells me that an assassin knows his own kind.

And you will be always outvoted 78-2 and ridiculed accordingly....and nothing will change.

-Polaris

[Bigdoser]

Why is it suprising that you got backstabbed? Thats how Orzammar politics work and all Bhelen did was play the game very well, I will not fault him from framing me either since thats how life is I don't like it, but it happens every day in Orzammar also from all the information I have gathered from the merchants and people Bhelen is the better choice imo. Also at the end of the day Bhelen has more commitmant to giving me troops for the blight.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:11 .

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

And you will be always outvoted 78-2 and ridiculed accordingly....and nothing will change.-Polaris

I dunno; Bhelen is dead, I am a Paragon, Gorim is again my second, and my House is restored from folks of all Castes. Feels like a good start to me.

[Glorfindel709]

But you'll still only be one reforming House. Bhelen has the right idea of needing reform, and while I dont agree with removing the Assembly and becoming a dictator, sometimes the leaders have to make hard decisions to ensure survival.

[Last Darkness]

KendallX23 wrote...

I've never chosen Bhelen...don't like the guy...well if i ever played an evil char then i will chose him...until then...

Thats the perfect example of why alot of people dont get why theres a debate over the choices in game. Your holding your personal views against him (Particularly if your Dwarf noble).
Also For your Information, the obvious good choice is Bhelen on the Throne with the Anvil destroyed. The Evil choice is Harrowmont on the Throne with the Anvil intact. The Most good for everyone comes from the former and the worst outcome possible comes from the latter.

Actualy the Evil EVIL choice is Harrowmont on the Throne with the Anvil intact, Burkles Chantry Built and Dagna with the mages. This results in Harrowmont forcing people to become golems(Bhelen takes volenteers at least) and starts raiding the surface for slaves to force to become golems resulting in a War with the Surface, The social system is enforced the casteless are even mor eopressed.  Burkle and everyone in his chantry is murdered and the Church declares War on orzamaar. Dagna starts a new circle in Orzamaar and this causes more friction with the Chantry and the Templars.

Thats one of the reasons I liek Dragon Age. Alot of teh choices in game that seem good in the short term are teh worst possible outcomes and scenarios you can get in the long term. Most "Good" Wardens have alot of blood on their hands.

*Edit*  Heres another thought, ever notice how many people are biased aginst the Fade demons even though almost all of the major ones offer you pretty sweet deals and Fade demons have never really done anything to earn the wardens prejudice and hate? Its just a everyone hates these guys and their bad so you should hate them too, murdering them is perfectly acceptable even though they offer non-violent means to resolve their conflicts.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 02 janvier 2011 - 08:54 .

[caradoc2000]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Arl Howe has a castleful of innocent people including the family of one of his closest friend's killed for no readily explainable reason besides he just was sick of being Arl and wanted to usurp a teynir.

And Bhelen had his own kin murdered and exiled and brought doom* to his house because he was sick of being the youngest prince and wanted to usurp a kingdom. Even Endrin expresses his grief and shame in his letter.

* particularly if Harrowmont becomes a king and warden does US.

[IanPolaris]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Arl Howe has a castleful of innocent people including the family of one of his closest friend's killed for no readily explainable reason besides he just was sick of being Arl and wanted to usurp a teynir.

And Bhelen had his own kin murdered and exiled and brought doom* to his house because he was sick of being the youngest prince and wanted to usurp a kingdom. Even Endrin expresses his grief and shame in his letter.

* particularly if Harrowmont becomes a king and warden does US.

That isn't always so.  What Bhelen did was artfully arrange for Trian and his middle brother to try to kill each other off.  Actually killing off Trian is definately Bhelan's "Plan B".  As for bringing doom upon his house that isn't so either.  I will say this (and the game does strongly hint at it even before the epilogs where it is made abundantly clear).  Picking Harrowmount does doom all of Orzammar and not just one house.

-Polaris

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

That isn't always so.  What Bhelen did was artfully arrange for Trian and his middle brother to try to kill each other off.  Actually killing off Trian is definately Bhelan's "Plan B".  As for bringing doom upon his house that isn't so either.  I will say this (and the game does strongly hint at it even before the epilogs where it is made abundantly clear).  Picking Harrowmount does doom all of Orzammar and not just one house.-Polaris

Our viewpoint of what is considered artistic also differs. Bhelen is indeed crafty, like was ascribed to King Herod.

And Orzammar is not doomed at all in the epilogues. Harrowmont is ineffective, and depending upon the outcome with the Anvil, war may result, too. But the reign is short, and the Assembly goes back into conflict. And this is where our POV's differ: in my game and imagination, the new House is able to make strides for a long term solution with altering the Caste system. While other players may have different thoughts, opinions, etc., in my game there is hope.

You may justify selecting Bhelen as you wish, but I generally choose to judge the man on evidence, actions and deeds; not on gossip, rumors, and precognative knowledge of the future.

[caradoc2000]

It has been awhile since I've sided with Bhelen - doesn't he dissolve the Assembly and rule as a dictator?

[Elhanan]

caradoc2000 wrote...

It has been awhile since I've sided with Bhelen - doesn't he dissolve the Assembly and rule as a dictator?

Yes; I posted the Epilogue in quotes at the bottom of the first page.

Modifié par Elhanan, 02 janvier 2011 - 10:37 .

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

It has been awhile since I've sided with Bhelen - doesn't he dissolve the Assembly and rule as a dictator?

Yes; I posted the Epilogue in quotes at the bottom of the first page.

Yes and it's the best thing that could happen to the Dwarves of Orzammar.  This isn't your Democratically elected congress.  It's more closely attuned to the first and second estates of Rennassiance France whose power had to be destroyed by the Monarchy before any true political reform (for the people) could take place.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That isn't always so.  What Bhelen did was artfully arrange for Trian and his middle brother to try to kill each other off.  Actually killing off Trian is definately Bhelan's "Plan B".  As for bringing doom upon his house that isn't so either.  I will say this (and the game does strongly hint at it even before the epilogs where it is made abundantly clear).  Picking Harrowmount does doom all of Orzammar and not just one house.-Polaris

Our viewpoint of what is considered artistic also differs. Bhelen is indeed crafty, like was ascribed to King Herod.

And Orzammar is not doomed at all in the epilogues. Harrowmont is ineffective, and depending upon the outcome with the Anvil, war may result, too. But the reign is short, and the Assembly goes back into conflict. And this is where our POV's differ: in my game and imagination, the new House is able to make strides for a long term solution with altering the Caste system. While other players may have different thoughts, opinions, etc., in my game there is hope.

You may justify selecting Bhelen as you wish, but I generally choose to judge the man on evidence, actions and deeds; not on gossip, rumors, and precognative knowledge of the future.

Justify it all you like, but many sources both in the game and in the DA lore itself tell you very strongly that without change, the Dwarves are doomed.  In fact both in DAO and DAA Oghren flat out states this (and as both an ex-Warrior Cast and ex-Noble, he ought to know).  Harrowmount on the throne amounts to putting all the power in the hands of an Assembly that represents only the Noble and Warrior castes that do not want change...ergo dooming Orzammar.  There is no way even a PC Paragon changes this.  Don't take my word for it...talk to Deshyr Helmi who is on your side!

-Polaris

[caradoc2000]

Even if we agree that Orzammar needs change, do we want someone like Bhelen as a dictator. He really shows his true colors at the assembly when Harrowmont is crowned. Does he accept defeat? No, he attacks like a raving lunatic*. He doesn't care a rat's rear-end about what is good for Orzammar, he is just a power-hungry git - the likes of which history knows far too many.

Edit: * actually the "I deserved better!" ramble of Arl Howe comes to mind.

Modifié par caradoc2000, 02 janvier 2011 - 10:51 .

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

Justify it all you like, but many sources both in the game and in the DA lore itself tell you very strongly that without change, the Dwarves are doomed.  In fact both in DAO and DAA Oghren flat out states this (and as both an ex-Warrior Cast and ex-Noble, he ought to know).  Harrowmount on the throne amounts to putting all the power in the hands of an Assembly that represents only the Noble and Warrior castes that do not want change...ergo dooming Orzammar.  There is no way even a PC Paragon changes this.  Don't take my word for it...talk to Deshyr Helmi who is on your side!-Polaris

Justify what? That my Warden and new House are based on change does not require it.

Rather, it is your POV that seems to call for justification, as you select the kinslayer and known outcome as the "Better" choice. I also enjoy that such choices are tough ones to make, but I tend to select ones that are appealing to me, at least in my game; few murderous foxes do I remember selecting for leaders here.

[IanPolaris]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Even if we agree that Orzammar needs change, do we want someone like Bhelen as a dictator. He really shows his true colors at the assembly when Harrowmont is crowned. Does he accept defeat? No, he attacks like a raving lunatic. He doesn't care a rat's rear-end about what is good for Orzammar, he is just a power-hungry git - the likes of which history knows far too many.

You say that as though it is a bad thing.  Great leaders generally don't accept defeat until all the bullets have been fired.  If anything Harrowmount accepting Bhelen as king may have been honorable but fundamentally stupid since he had to know Bhelen would have him executed.

As for not giving a rat's rear end about what's good for Orzammar, I strongly dissent.  Read Rica's letter.  Engage in some conversation around Orzammar, and you'll find that Bhelen cares very much about opening up trade and allowing Casteless to bear arms, and many other things because they will make Orzammar strongly.  Bhelen is very much interested in what's best for Orzammar, but he feels that he IS Orzammar and what's best for him is best for Orzammar.  In that Bhelen reminds me a great deal of Cardinal-Protecter Richelieu (and France) during the thirty years war.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Justify it all you like, but many sources both in the game and in the DA lore itself tell you very strongly that without change, the Dwarves are doomed.  In fact both in DAO and DAA Oghren flat out states this (and as both an ex-Warrior Cast and ex-Noble, he ought to know).  Harrowmount on the throne amounts to putting all the power in the hands of an Assembly that represents only the Noble and Warrior castes that do not want change...ergo dooming Orzammar.  There is no way even a PC Paragon changes this.  Don't take my word for it...talk to Deshyr Helmi who is on your side!-Polaris

Justify what? That my Warden and new House are based on change does not require it.

Rather, it is your POV that seems to call for justification, as you select the kinslayer and known outcome as the "Better" choice. I also enjoy that such choices are tough ones to make, but I tend to select ones that are appealing to me, at least in my game; few murderous foxes do I remember selecting for leaders here.

I don't have to justify it.  From the PoV of the Grey Warden the choice is crystal clear:

Bhelen gives you unconditional support and Harrowmount doesn't.

End. Of. Discussion.

-Polaris

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

You say that as though it is a bad thing.  Great leaders generally don't accept defeat until all the bullets have been fired.  If anything Harrowmount accepting Bhelen as king may have been honorable but fundamentally stupid since he had to know Bhelen would have him executed.

As for not giving a rat's rear end about what's good for Orzammar, I strongly dissent.  Read Rica's letter.  Engage in some conversation around Orzammar, and you'll find that Bhelen cares very much about opening up trade and allowing Casteless to bear arms, and many other things because they will make Orzammar strongly.  Bhelen is very much interested in what's best for Orzammar, but he feels that he IS Orzammar and what's best for him is best for Orzammar.  In that Bhelen reminds me a great deal of Cardinal-Protecter Richelieu (and France) during the thirty years war.

-Polaris

And is my favorite villain in cinematic history. While Bhelen believes he is right and is what is best, this does not make him right and best.

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't have to justify it.  From the PoV of the Grey Warden the choice is crystal clear:

Bhelen gives you unconditional support and Harrowmount doesn't.

End. Of. Discussion.-Polaris

For. You. Perhaps.

The King does not have the right to make a claim of unconditional support, though he may feel that way. Harowmont states the facts, while apparently Bhelen declares his desire. He is simply another self-serving despot that does not oft gain my support.

Modifié par Elhanan, 02 janvier 2011 - 11:05 .

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't have to justify it.  From the PoV of the Grey Warden the choice is crystal clear:

Bhelen gives you unconditional support and Harrowmount doesn't.

End. Of. Discussion.-Polaris

For. You. Perhaps.

The King does not have the right to make a claim of unconditional support, though he may feel that way. Harowmont states the facts, while apparently Bhelen declares his desire. He is simply another self-serving despot that does not oft gain my support.

Actually as confirmed by the Shaper of Memories, he does during a time of blight.  King Bemot set the precedent.
The bottom line is King Bhelen guarantees support and can bring more troops to your army (since he will recruit casteless).  It also shows that Bhelen is willing to reform the caste system while Harrowmount is not.  That makes Bhelen the better choice at least for the Grey Wardens.


-Polaris

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually as confirmed by the Shaper of Memories, he does during a time of blight.  King Bemot set the precedent.
The bottom line is King Bhelen guarantees support and can bring more troops to your army (since he will recruit casteless).  It also shows that Bhelen is willing to reform the caste system while Harrowmount is not.  That makes Bhelen the better choice at least for the Grey Wardens.-Polaris

Which Bhelen uses well past the Blight, during the epilogue. While Bhelen the Bloody may be better for your breed of Wardens, I will stay with Harrowmont.

[caradoc2000]

IanPolaris wrote...

King Bhelen guarantees support

He has already screwed DN warden big time once and now I am just supposed to trust him again.

Bhelen: "Sure dear brother, I'll give you troops and get you back your status - *cough*moron*cough*"

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually as confirmed by the Shaper of Memories, he does during a time of blight.  King Bemot set the precedent.
The bottom line is King Bhelen guarantees support and can bring more troops to your army (since he will recruit casteless).  It also shows that Bhelen is willing to reform the caste system while Harrowmount is not.  That makes Bhelen the better choice at least for the Grey Wardens.-Polaris

Which Bhelen uses well past the Blight, during the epilogue. While Bhelen the Bloody may be better for your breed of Wardens, I will stay with Harrowmont.

IRL King Loius XIV is considered one of France's Greatest Kings, but he did a very similiar thing with the four estates (that was like Orzammar's assembly in that it blocked needed political moderization).  You seem to think that outlawying the Assembly makes Bhelan a bad person and anti-democratic, but there is nothing nice or democratic about Orzammar's Assembly.

-Polaris