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[mousestalker]

"Lords of the Assembly, this argument gets us nowhere."

[Pro_Consul]

Elhanan wrote...

Which Bhelen uses well past the Blight, during the epilogue. While Bhelen the Bloody may be better for your breed of Wardens, I will stay with Harrowmont.

This makes me wonder. Say the Warden backs Harrowmont, who then takes the crown while ceding all power to the squabbling and inert Assembly. As the epilogue tells it, this results in a weakening of Orzammar at best, and its outright destruction at worst. How does this benefit the Wardens in the long run? With only one dwarven city left, how long would the dwarven race even continue to exist? Remember that the end of a Blight does NOT mean the end of the darkspawn threat, at least to the dwarves. How much stronger is the NEXT Blight going to be, and how much more quickly is it going to come, with no dwarves to hinder the darkspawn during the interval?

I honestly cannot see how taking the moral high ground and choosing Harrowmont is anything less than a severe abdication of one's responsibility as a Grey Warden, at least in hindsight. That doesn't mean I don't understand why one would choose him at the time, role playing the lack of foreknowledge about how badly it will end for Orzammar. But even so, it seems to me that the Warden's personal morality and his/her duty as a Grey Warden are being placed into open conflict with each other here, since it is still apparent from practically the beginning that Bhelen provides more advantages to the Warden cause than Harrowmont.

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

IRL King Loius XIV is considered one of France's Greatest Kings, but he did a very similiar thing with the four estates (that was like Orzammar's assembly in that it blocked needed political moderization).  You seem to think that outlawying the Assembly makes Bhelan a bad person and anti-democratic, but there is nothing nice or democratic about Orzammar's Assembly.-Polaris

Agreed. I would also take it/them out due to excessive corruption. I do not recall ever charging Bhelen for doing such; was just giving you notice that his use was done post-Blight which strayed from the DAO historical record of being done during a Blight. His actions seem to be w/o any precedent.

I simply fault Bhelen for being a bad, bad man; a murderous, coiving, self-serving despot.

[Elhanan]

Pro_Consul wrote...

This makes me wonder. Say the Warden backs Harrowmont, who then takes the crown while ceding all power to the squabbling and inert Assembly. As the epilogue tells it, this results in a weakening of Orzammar at best, and its outright destruction at worst. How does this benefit the Wardens in the long run? With only one dwarven city left, how long would the dwarven race even continue to exist? Remember that the end of a Blight does NOT mean the end of the darkspawn threat, at least to the dwarves. How much stronger is the NEXT Blight going to be, and how much more quickly is it going to come, with no dwarves to hinder the darkspawn during the interval?

I honestly cannot see how taking the moral high ground and choosing Harrowmont is anything less than a severe abdication of one's responsibility as a Grey Warden, at least in hindsight. That doesn't mean I don't understand why one would choose him at the time, role playing the lack of foreknowledge about how badly it will end for Orzammar. But even so, it seems to me that the Warden's personal morality and his/her duty as a Grey Warden are being placed into open conflict with each other here, since it is still apparent from practically the beginning that Bhelen provides more advantages to the Warden cause than Harrowmont.

Most of my Wardens do not have the gift of precognition, and must judge based upon what is known; by action and deeds. It may be sad that Harrowmont fails to be the King that is needed in Orzammar, but I will never regret choosing the better man for the Throne.

[Sarah1281]

Actualy the Evil EVIL choice is Harrowmont on the Throne with the Anvil intact, Burkles Chantry Built and Dagna with the mages. This results in Harrowmont forcing people to become golems(Bhelen takes volenteers at least) and starts raiding the surface for slaves to force to become golems resulting in a War with the Surface, The social system is enforced the casteless are even mor eopressed. Burkle and everyone in his chantry is murdered and the Church declares War on orzamaar. Dagna starts a new circle in Orzamaar and this causes more friction with the Chantry and the Templars.

I never get the Dagna epilogue when I get the Burkel one. I had assumed this was because the apostates don't think forming a circle in a land where there has recently been a Chantry established and that the surface Chantry is already contemplating an Exalted March because of Burkel's death would be a very good idea.

And Bhelen had his own kin murdered and exiled and brought doom* to his house because he was sick of being the youngest prince and wanted to usurp a kingdom. Even Endrin expresses his grief and shame in his letter.



* particularly if Harrowmont becomes a king and warden does US.

What does the Warden doing the US have to do with it? His house is weakened, sure, but hardly doomed. And you're the one that forced him off the throne.



Can we please try to remember that Endrin himself likely had his older brother murdered (according to Bhelen, Endrin's brother accidentally fought a murderer with a poisoned blade in a Proving and he suspects Endrin was involved)? Endrin isn't ashamed that Bhelen did exactly what he did. Of course he is guilt-stricken, though: you and Trian aren't HIS political opponents, you're his children and he didn't want to lose you. If Bhelen becomes king, has multiple children, and one takes another out I can see him being more upset about it than he was about taking out you and Trian. Also, Endrin tells you that he NEVER thought that you killed Trian (regardless of if you did). The obvious explanation if you are innocent is that Bhelen is guilty. Why, then, did he say that he has since seen what Bhelen is if he always knew he was guilty but trying to overlook it? My guess is he reallized that Bhelen was progressive and we know that he was deeply conservative.

It has been awhile since I've sided with Bhelen - doesn't he dissolve the Assembly and rule as a dictator?

Sure, but only AFTER they won't stop trying to assassinate him. I hardly blame him for that, really.

Even if we agree that Orzammar needs change, do we want someone like Bhelen as a dictator. He really shows his true colors at the assembly when Harrowmont is crowned. Does he accept defeat? No, he attacks like a raving lunatic*. He doesn't care a rat's rear-end about what is good for Orzammar, he is just a power-hungry git - the likes of which history knows far too many.



Edit: * actually the "I deserved better!" ramble of Arl Howe comes to mind.

Why can't we want power AND what is best for Orzammar? Bhelen fully believes that Harrowmont is NOT what is best for Orzammar. As Harrowmont doesn't even WANT to be a strong king and worships the status quo that is killing Orzammar, how could he possibly be?



And what is with all of these Arl Howe comparisons? Yes, they are both noble origin antagonists but that's kind of it.

Justify what? That my Warden and new House are based on change does not require it.

You're only around for so long before you are forced to disappear by the epilogue, you know. And still, you are only one house. Do you really think that, even headed by a Paragon, if one house decided that they wanted change and no one else supported you at all then change would come? Sure, you might find support among the lower castes but they don't actually have any political power. You would need deshyr support and given that Helmi's vote is controlled by his mother, I'm not sure you would get it.

He has already screwed DN warden big time once and now I am just supposed to trust him again.



Bhelen: "Sure dear brother, I'll give you troops and get you back your status - *cough*moron*cough*"

He never promises you back status. At best, you can convince him to give your son status once you help him take the throne although you don't have to believe he'll keep that promise, I guess.



Yes, Bhelen screwed you over. Yes, he makes it sound like he doesn't like you and takes every opportunity to insult you. No, this does not make him stupid and darkspawn are a huge threat to Orzammar. A Blight could prove disastrous. Why would Bhelen be so petty as to risk his kingdom because he would rather **** with you?

Most of my Wardens do not have the gift of precognition, and must judge based upon what is known; by action and deeds. It may be sad that Harrowmont fails to be the King that is needed in Orzammar, but I will never regret choosing the better man for the Throne.

Clearly he ISN'T the better man for the throne. Or do you mean putting a man who is morally superior on the throne? Why not if you're considering the outcome? Is placing a kinslayer on the throne too high a price to save Orzammar?

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Most of my Wardens do not have the gift of precognition, and must judge based upon what is known; by action and deeds. It may be sad that Harrowmont fails to be the King that is needed in Orzammar, but I will never regret choosing the better man for the Throne.

Clearly he ISN'T the better man for the throne. Or do you mean putting a man who is morally superior on the throne? Why not if you're considering the outcome? Is placing a kinslayer on the throne too high a price to save Orzammar?

He is not a better man; just a better political mind. I do mean morally, ethically, legally, etc.

And Yeppers! Too high a price for my games.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Most of my Wardens do not have the gift of precognition, and must judge based upon what is known; by action and deeds. It may be sad that Harrowmont fails to be the King that is needed in Orzammar, but I will never regret choosing the better man for the Throne.

Clearly he ISN'T the better man for the throne. Or do you mean putting a man who is morally superior on the throne? Why not if you're considering the outcome? Is placing a kinslayer on the throne too high a price to save Orzammar?

He is not a better man; just a better political mind. I do mean morally, ethically, legally, etc.

And Yeppers! Too high a price for my games.

How is he a better politician? If you hadn't come along, it seems certain that Bhelen would have eventually won and most of Harrowmont's support came from people wanting to take House Aeducan down.

Why in the world is something small like the morality of the would-be king enough to damn Orzammar? 

[IanPolaris]

Sarah,



It seems that some people can't get past their own personal morality and personal injustices to realize what is better in the larger sense for both the Wardens and Orzammar.



-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

wait wait. Harrowmont, a better political mind? Morally and ethically?

....Oooook. Indeed his policies are the testimony of a political genius.

[Elhanan]

I do not claim to know much at all about politics *and there was much rejoicing*. but will remain at peace in the knowledge that I will not purposly select a deepstalker like Bhelen to rule as King. However, he does make a nice throw rug on the floor of the Assembly.

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

I do not claim to know much at all about politics *and there was much rejoicing*. but will remain at peace in the knowledge that I will not purposly select a deepstalker like Bhelen to rule as King. However, he does make a nice throw rug on the floor of the Assembly.

So in effect you are letting your personal dislike and morality veto what is best for the Wardens and Orzammar.  Just so we are clear.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

I am sure your peace of mind is worth a lot.

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

So in effect you are letting your personal dislike and morality veto what is best for the Wardens and Orzammar.  Just so we are clear.-Polaris

Not always. Sometimes for RP, I choose Harrowmont because he did not hire such a Nug for brains like Gavorn. And sometimes because he gave me a sword and shield. And at other times, just because....

There are a few times when I have chosen Bhelen, but that is when I was RP precognative Wardens, or was exploring the Dark Side. Or just wanted to be wrong, too.

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

So in effect you are letting your personal dislike and morality veto what is best for the Wardens and Orzammar.  Just so we are clear.-Polaris

Not always. Sometimes for RP, I choose Harrowmont because he did not hire such a Nug for brains like Gavorn. And sometimes because he gave me a sword and shield. And at other times, just because....

There are a few times when I have chosen Bhelen, but that is when I was RP precognative Wardens, or was exploring the Dark Side. Or just wanted to be wrong, too.

I suppose you're right, if doing what is best for Orzammar is wrong.

-Polaris

[caradoc2000]

IanPolaris wrote...

So in effect you are letting your personal dislike and morality veto what is best for the Wardens and Orzammar.

My DN warden will not support Bhelen, because he knows first hand what kind of a snake Bhelen is. He also does not believe that Bhelen would be better for Orzammar (or the GW) in the long run. Petty tyrants have often made societies stronger and more stable, but it does not last.

[Sarah1281]

caradoc2000 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

So in effect you are letting your personal dislike and morality veto what is best for the Wardens and Orzammar.

My DN warden will not support Bhelen, because he knows first hand what kind of a snake Bhelen is. He also does not believe that Bhelen would be better for Orzammar (or the GW) in the long run. Petty tyrants have often made societies stronger and more stable, but it does not last.

 While that is true, how is Harrowmont's policy of keeping everything exactly the same and blithely allowing Orzammar to continue on the path of destruction any better? We don't KNOW that Bhelen's reforms will be repealed and we know that Harrowmont can't even manage those.

And really, aside from the fact that he screwed you personally over, what makes Bhelen any more of a snake than anyone else with power in Orzammar? 

Modifié par Sarah1281, 02 janvier 2011 - 09:16 .

[Pro_Consul]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And really, aside from the fact that he screwed you personally over, what makes Bhelen any more of a snake than anyone else with power in Orzammar? 

And here is the real nub. Politics in Orzammar is a game that is fraught with double-dealing, assassination, intrigue and ruthlessness. Bhelen is more or less typical of the society he seeks to rule. Harrowmont is the fish out of water here, a relatively (by Orzammar standards) honest and honorable man. One wonders two things:

1. If he really is as gormlessly honorable as he portrays himself, how did he survive in the royal court for so long?

2. If he really is that gormlessly honorable, what are his chances of surviving more than a month as king?

Anyway, I pity the populace of all three races with a Warden making these political choices who is willing to deliberately choose the path of mass destruction just to avoid offending his own moral sensibilities....not a desirable trait in a Grey Warden.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 02 janvier 2011 - 09:39 .

[caradoc2000]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And really, aside from the fact that he screwed you personally over, what makes Bhelen any more of a snake than anyone else with power in Orzammar? 

We should just forgive and forget, because they are all like that?

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

[KnightofPhoenix]

caradoc2000 wrote...
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

I am sure Orzammar will agree that you are not a fool.

[caradoc2000]

Even if we agree that Bhelen initially carries out many "improvements" - trade, casteless etc, there is no guarantee what he will do eventually.



With (even a corrupt and bickering) assembly there is some counter force to the king. When Bhelen eventually becomes a sole dictator, I wouldn't count on him being "good for Orzammar/outside world" any longer.

[Pro_Consul]

caradoc2000 wrote...

We should just forgive and forget, because they are all like that?

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

Nobody said forgive and forget. Doing business requires neither. But getting completely blind-sided by Bhelen once already should have taught you this much about his character: Bhelen is very good at getting what he really wants, but he doesn't throw away what he wants in order to satisfy his pride, or out of petty spite, or he would never been able to bide his time for years playing toady to Trian. As long as what Bhelen wants coincides with what the Wardens want, you should consider supporting him, but watch your back nonetheless (a lesson you should have learned long before Bhelen screwed you over). It is when you start to put your own desires, e.g. for revenge, for imposing your morality on an uncooperative world, etc, ahead of the fight against the darkspawn that you stray from your duty to the Grey Wardens.

caradoc2000 wrote...

With (even a corrupt and bickering) assembly there is some counter force to the king. When Bhelen eventually  becomes a sole dictator, I wouldn't count on him being "good for Orzammar/outside world" any longer.

It's not your responsibility to fix the political structure for the long term. That is their own problem. Your problem is the darkspawn and the current Blight, and these are what should be driving your decision making process. Which aspirant, Bhelen or Harrowmont, is going to provide the most aid against the Blight and provide for the more staunch defense of Orzammar? The answer to that question tells you exactly whom you should support, assuming you are putting your Warden duties first.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 02 janvier 2011 - 10:02 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

caradoc2000 wrote...
With (even a corrupt and bickering) assembly there is some counter force to the king. When Bhelen eventually becomes a sole dictator, I wouldn't count on him being "good for Orzammar/outside world" any longer.

But you would count on the Assembly that time and time again has proven itself incompentent, and that cares only about the interests of a few noble houses (aka it's not in their interests to reform)?

Yea, I'd sooner trust Bhelen.
And even if his regime should fall, the reforms and improvements that he brings will be hard to reverse. Tyrannies may fall quickly, but the positive effects they bring are hard to reverse.

[testing123]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Is placing a kinslayer on the throne too high a price to save Orzammar?

This isn't exactly the scenario presented.  What you are truly being asked in game is, do you trust Bhelen and his policies will do enough good to outweigh all of the crimes he has already committed?  At least that's the question I always end up asking myself when it comes time to choose a king.  Do I have enough faith in Bhelen's abilities as an administrator that I'm willing to support the dickishness I've already seen.  Ultimately, I always seem to have much more confidence in the fact that he murdered his entire family than I do that he is a progressive reformer.  It's asking a lot of me to put my trust in a fratricidal megalomaniac when I feel his success is far from certain.

Just my point of view.  Most of the people in this thread have been through this argument before, so I doubt I'm breaking new ground.  I guess I just don't see quite the same Bhelen that his supporters see when they play the game.

[Bigdoser]

Jvee thats how orzammer politics is like, the thing I don't like is that people think Bhelen is the only one that does this I am sure alot of nobles kill their brothers and sisters to get a higher shot for power how do you think harrowmant is still alive for so long? by being nice? I don't think so.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 03 janvier 2011 - 02:39 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The one time I chose Harrowmont in a playthrough that I actually was serious about and liked was my dwarven noble. And she was quite proud of the snake her brother had become, it showed she brought him up right.



Thus, when she returned to Orzammar and sided with Harrowmont, it was not out of revenge on her brother, though she did want to knock him down a peg or two. She picked Harrowmont because she knew he was a spineless toad, and thus, really little more than a placeholder for the throne for the day when she would return to take it back. Wheras she knew her little brother would actually be a serious problem to remove.



Other than that, my two canons, plus my one other favored playthrough picked Bhelen. Because I sleep better at night knowing the dwarves will survive and prosper, the casteless finally have a chance, and darkspawn ass will be regularly served on the plates of Orzammar's finest because I chose The Better Man.