240 réponses à ce sujet

[testing123]

Bigdoser wrote...

Jvee thats how orzammer politics is like, the thing I don't like is that people think Bhelen is the only one that does this I am sure alot of nobles kill their brothers and sisters to get a higher shot for power how do you think harrowmant is still alive for so long? by being nice? I don't think so.

I don't think everything Bhelen did is representative of Orzammar politics at large.  Nor do I think that Bhelen was the only dwarf to ever scheme the way he did.  To be honest, I'm not sure why Harrowmont stays alive so long.  Probably because no one could ever possibly confuse him for a threat.  Better to allow him his prestigious, albeit powerless, position and manipulate him rather than waste resources removing an obstacle that isn't really there.  If you really intend to cast doubt on Harrowmont's character you are going to need better evidence than the fact that he exists.  So far as any of my characters can tell, Harrowmont's only crime is weakness.

[Last Darkness]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Which Bhelen uses well past the Blight, during the epilogue. While Bhelen the Bloody may be better for your breed of Wardens, I will stay with Harrowmont.

This makes me wonder. Say the Warden backs Harrowmont, who then takes the crown while ceding all power to the squabbling and inert Assembly. As the epilogue tells it, this results in a weakening of Orzammar at best, and its outright destruction at worst. How does this benefit the Wardens in the long run? With only one dwarven city left, how long would the dwarven race even continue to exist? Remember that the end of a Blight does NOT mean the end of the darkspawn threat, at least to the dwarves. How much stronger is the NEXT Blight going to be, and how much more quickly is it going to come, with no dwarves to hinder the darkspawn during the interval?

I honestly cannot see how taking the moral high ground and choosing Harrowmont is anything less than a severe abdication of one's responsibility as a Grey Warden, at least in hindsight. That doesn't mean I don't understand why one would choose him at the time, role playing the lack of foreknowledge about how badly it will end for Orzammar. But even so, it seems to me that the Warden's personal morality and his/her duty as a Grey Warden are being placed into open conflict with each other here, since it is still apparent from practically the beginning that Bhelen provides more advantages to the Warden cause than Harrowmont.

Quouted for Truth, plus I like your avatar.

Elhanan is a friend of mine and I respect his opinion and deicision to play a moraly rightous Warden.  I think alot of people are misunderstanding him in this reguard and hes having to defend himself for some comments that there should be no argument over. Like we all agree Bhelen is more moraly wroung then Harrowmont but Bhelen is better for the Wardens and his people then Harrowmont is in any scenario. (As far as we know, its hinted heavily that Harrowmont was the one who poisoned the King)
Dwarf politics are something we are incapable of relating too since they are not the ones we use and instead we still try to compare. Its like How I never understand Japanese endings where everyone dies and theres no resolution or conclusion. Its a society thing.

[Pro_Consul]

Last Darkness wrote...

Quouted for Truth, plus I like your avatar.

Thx.

Last Darkness wrote...

Elhanan is a friend of mine and I respect his opinion and deicision to play a moraly rightous Warden.  I think alot of people are misunderstanding him in this reguard and hes having to defend himself for some comments that there should be no argument over. Like we all agree Bhelen is more moraly wroung then Harrowmont but Bhelen is better for the Wardens and his people then Harrowmont is in any scenario. (As far as we know, its hinted heavily that Harrowmont was the one who poisoned the King)
Dwarf politics are something we are incapable of relating too since they are not the ones we use and instead we still try to compare. Its like How I never understand Japanese endings where everyone dies and theres no resolution or conclusion. Its a society thing.

I agree, and this was the thrust of my earlier comment about how people tend to judge the morality of different societies by the morality of their own, and how I don't think that is necessarily a good thing. But at the end of the day, this is a game; so it is really down to RPing the thing the way that makes it most fun for you personally.

[caradoc2000]

Pro_Consul wrote...

But at the end of the day, this is a game; so it is really down to RPing the thing the way that makes it most fun for you personally.

Exactly, and my DN would never side with Bhelen. That said, I have several other Wardens who have sided with him - they had no preconception about him (or Harrowmont).

[Sarah1281]

I think that more of the disagreement here has been more about who is the best choice meta-gaming-wise and not who your specific character would choose and even THEN we can't get a consensus on that being Bhelen.

[jpdipity]

Last Darkness wrote...

jpdippity though. Where did you get the idea grey warden dont do nessary evils for the good of the whole and the entire purpose of their existance.

Not sure exactly why you think I implied that they won't do necessary evils...

Hmm...perhaps the statement that doing things at "any" costs is in theory only.  My point was that there are times when Grey Wardens can show constraint not that they will not do evil things.  Clearly, Grey Wardens can do evil things to defeat the blight.

Theortically, Grey Wardens are supposed to do anything and everything to defeat the blight.  However, the statement that a Grey Warden will do what it takes to defeat a blight "at any costs" is not always true.  I listed conscription as an example of this.  There are times when doing anything is going to cause more harm than good.  Just like Duncan won't initially conscript the HN because he does not want to bring the wrath of Fereldan nobility onto the GW order.  

I was basically just pointing out that there are times when constraint can be used.  Of course, you could play your Warden as one who does not use constraint.  However, both Riordan and Duncan show constraint in the game; so, it is clearly normal for a Grey Warden to not always do everything "at any cost" to defeat the blight.

Modifié par jpdipity, 03 janvier 2011 - 05:06 .

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think that more of the disagreement here has been more about who is the best choice meta-gaming-wise and not who your specific character would choose and even THEN we can't get a consensus on that being Bhelen.

Even in meta-gaming, while the resultant epilogue may be more advantagious, I do not believe Bhelen is a better choice. It may be the pragmatic selection to gain the results one desires, but I do not hold that it is the better choice as yielding to tyranny seldom will be the better option, IMO.

I guess that choosing Evil-esque options are more personal for me. I used to play PnP this way until my IG actions created a RL fracturing of the RPG group, and I have only recently picked up 'practicing' these types of decisions within DAO, as it is a solo game medium.
 
I hold to the theory that repeated practice of such choices, even when only imagined may cause erosion in RL decisions (eg; telling the driver ahead under your breath that if he cuts you off ONE more time that you will do X action). This leads to setting a mental trigger for ones actions, and may weaken restraints.

So when I play RPg's, this is the first occasion when I have played truly Evil choices since the early 1980's... except as a DM, of course.

Modifié par Elhanan, 03 janvier 2011 - 05:48 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Bhelen is the better man if you're casteless, and Harrowmont is the "evil" option. Try playing a casteless dwarf, then talking to both Harrowmont and Bhelen, and you'll find out Harrowmont is an even bigger **** than Bhelen. When he addresses your casteless dwarfm he sounds like he's trying to crawl out of his own skin because being in the same vicinity as you is more disgusting than being in a middenheap.



And I don't see how you can even think Bhelen is still more evil in the epilogues. Harrowmont slaguhters the casteless and razes Dust Town to the ground, and further passes laws to oppress and degrade the lower castes even more.



Bhelen knocking of a few **** nobles and dissolving an assembly that is only democratic as far as the elites are concerned, is quite tame. harrowmont's a real tyrant for anyone but the noble, warrior, and higher castes.

[Elhanan]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Bhelen is the better man if you're casteless, and Harrowmont is the "evil" option. Try playing a casteless dwarf, then talking to both Harrowmont and Bhelen, and you'll find out Harrowmont is an even bigger **** than Bhelen. When he addresses your casteless dwarfm he sounds like he's trying to crawl out of his own skin because being in the same vicinity as you is more disgusting than being in a middenheap.

And I don't see how you can even think Bhelen is still more evil in the epilogues. Harrowmont slaguhters the casteless and razes Dust Town to the ground, and further passes laws to oppress and degrade the lower castes even more.

Bhelen knocking of a few **** nobles and dissolving an assembly that is only democratic as far as the elites are concerned, is quite tame. harrowmont's a real tyrant for anyone but the noble, warrior, and higher castes.

My first Warden was a DC, and I chose Harrowmont. Sadly, this helped cost me Leske and Rica as friends, so I chose the US as my final act.

Harrowmont does not slaughter the Casteless; Branka may if the Anvil is intact. A civil and topsider war does errupt, too.

Murder is never lame.

[jpdipity]

Playing as any PC other than a dwarf, I don't see that Harrowmont is clearly the nicer/better guy. You hear things that are positive and negative equally about both. So, as a Grey Warden without inside knowledge of Orzammar and without metagaming, I would think that the good choice is choosing the dwarf who appears will make the better king and/or will give you troops.



On my first playthrough and having never played a dwarf or seen the epilogues, I picked Harrowmont, but that was because I was playing an air-head who was clueless and that was her clueless choice. I thought it was pretty clear: Bhelen guarantees my PC troops and he was the progessive = better choice for King.



You don't know if any of the following things are true or false - you simply don't have enough proof either way:

-- Harrowmont poisoned the King

-- Bhelan murdered his brother as a means to the throne and/or framed his other brother

-- Harrowmont double-crossed Dace/Helmi or Bhelan/Vartag forged the papers

-- Endrin expressed a desire for Harrowmont to be named King with no witnesses present

-- Harrowmont kept Bhelan away from Endrin as a means to manipulate an ailing man

-- Endrin asked Harrowmont to find his exciled son - he is not present; so, either Harrowmont found him dead or did not find him or did not attempt to find him.



You do know:

-- Bhelan promises the Warden troops. Harrowmont does not.

-- Bhelan is progressive and Harrowmont is conservative

-- Bhelan used blackmail to keep Harrowmont's supporters from participating in the Proving (I think you know this as a player)

-- Harrowmont's supporters are not firm in their convictions to support Harrowmont and are easily swayed.



Meh...I probably missed a few things. My point is that the major morally objectionable things are suspected on both sides. Only a dwarf noble or through meta-gaming would a player believe one rumor over the other because you have no firm evidence that either party is telling the truth.

[Elhanan]

jpdipity wrote...

...You do know:
-- Bhelan promises the Warden troops. Harrowmont does not.
-- Bhelan is progressive and Harrowmont is conservative
-- Bhelan used blackmail to keep Harrowmont's supporters from participating in the Proving (I think you know this as a player)
-- Harrowmont's supporters are not firm in their convictions to support Harrowmont and are easily swayed.

-- Evidently only if you actually work with Bhelen and Gavorn; the latter makes it rather clear that he is not trustworthy, so I have yet to get this option, I believe. My Evil Warden worked for Harrowmont, then selected Bhelen.
-- The horror....
-- The Proving tag-team does this in the name of Aeducan; may not be directly tied to the Kinslayer
-- Bhelen's supporters are also murderers, cheater, liars, blackmailers, etc, etc, etc

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Elhanan wrote...


My first Warden was a DC, and I chose Harrowmont. Sadly, this helped cost me Leske and Rica as friends, so I chose the US as my final act.

Rica is your sister, leske turns on you no matter what. You did, however, doom your fellows to a continued, miserable state.

And since you've chosen and talked to Harrowmont as a Casteless, I do not see how you could not see him as anything but a stuck up elitist biggot, when interacted with as a Casteless. I certainly could not mistake his attitude for anything else.

Harrowmont does not slaughter the Casteless; Branka may if the Anvil is intact. A civil and topsider war does errupt, too.

Yes he does. That's a big part of his epilogue slide. He passes more draconians laws that crush the casteless even further. They revolt, he slaughters a whole bunch of them and razes Dust Town to the ground. I've picked him twice.

Murder is never lame.

In the largwer scheme of things it is. And Bhelen's a much better man, I think.

[jpdipity]

Elhanan wrote...

jpdipity wrote...

...You do know:
-- Bhelan promises the Warden troops. Harrowmont does not.
-- Bhelan is progressive and Harrowmont is conservative
-- Bhelan used blackmail to keep Harrowmont's supporters from participating in the Proving (I think you know this as a player)
-- Harrowmont's supporters are not firm in their convictions to support Harrowmont and are easily swayed.

-- Evidently only if you actually work with Bhelen and Gavorn; the latter makes it rather clear that he is not trustworthy, so I have yet to get this option, I believe. My Evil Warden worked for Harrowmont, then selected Bhelen.
-- The horror....
-- The Proving tag-team does this in the name of Aeducan; may not be directly tied to the Kinslayer
-- Bhelen's supporters are also murderers, cheater, liars, blackmailers, etc, etc, etc

So, you have never tried siding with Bhelen first to get his side of the story?  You simply take Harrowmont at his word without looking at anything further.  Okay, that explains alot.

[testing123]

jpdipity wrote...
So, you have never tried siding with Bhelen first to get his side of the story?  You simply take Harrowmont at his word without looking at anything further.  Okay, that explains alot.

What side of the story are you referring to?

[IanPolaris]

jvee wrote...

jpdipity wrote...
So, you have never tried siding with Bhelen first to get his side of the story?  You simply take Harrowmont at his word without looking at anything further.  Okay, that explains alot.

What side of the story are you referring to?

If you talk with Bhelen and refer to the blight (either by siding with him or by double-crossing Harrowmount), he promises "by the mail of his ancestors" that he will do everything needed to give you the troops you need.  Bhelen is emphatic and unequivocable on this point.

Harrowmount on the other hand (you either have to side with Harrowmount or double-cross Bhelen) says on the Assembly can grant troops (which is not true in a time of blight if you talk with the Head Shaper...King Bemot did it without assembly permission) but if you backed him, he would petition the assembly to grant the troops.

That's very equivocable in my book.  On one side I get an unconditional promise for troops and on the other, I get equivocation and passing the buck on the Troops.

For my wardens, that's not a hard choice.

-Polaris

[Mykel54]

The difference between Bhelen and Harrowmont is this: In the epilogue harrowmont passes out from old age, tireness, etc. also known as poison. On the other hand Bhelen resist 3 assasination attempts, and then becomes absolute king. It is obvious who of the two is the more capable ruler.

Modifié par Mykel54, 03 janvier 2011 - 09:40 .

[Pro_Consul]

jpdipity wrote...

Harrowmont double-crossed Dace/Helmi or Bhelan/Vartag forged the papers

Actually it seems pretty obvious that the first part of that is true, Dace and Helmi were indeed both promised the same thing. Look at it closely: 

1. You go to Dace and show him a (possibly forged) document in which Harrowmont promises to give Helmi a certain concession.

2. You go to Helmi and show him a (possibly forged) document in which Harrowmont promises to give Dace the exact same concession.

3. In both cases the person being shown the document acknowledges that the concession going to the other house is the same one promised to them.

4. Ergo, both were indeed promised the very same concession.

The documents may or may not have been forged, but what those documents are saying is obviously true, and this is independently confirmed by both parties involved. So not only is Harrowmont lying and double-dealing with his own allies, he is doing so with gross incompetence.

[testing123]

Pro_Consul wrote...
Actually it seems pretty obvious that the first part of that is true, Dace and Helmi were indeed both promised the same thing. Look at it closely: 

1. You go to Dace and show him a (possibly forged) document in which Harrowmont promises to give Helmi a certain concession.

2. You go to Helmi and show him a (possibly forged) document in which Harrowmont promises to give Dace the exact same concession.

3. In both cases the person being shown the document acknowledges that the concession going to the other house is the same one promised to them.

4. Ergo, both were indeed promised the very same concession.

The documents may or may not have been forged, but what those documents are saying is obviously true, and this is independently confirmed by both parties involved. So not only is Harrowmont lying and double-dealing with his own allies, he is doing so with gross incompetence.

No, it's actually pretty clear they are forged.  The concessions promised to each are recorded in the Shaperate.  The papers you show to Dace and Helmi are forged to show each that the other was promised the exact same thing they were promised.  This is kind of hard to explain.

Let's say Helmi is promised A and Dace is promised B.  What you do for Gavorn is show Helmi a forged paper that says Dace is promised A and you show Dace a forged paper that says Helmi is promised B.  In actuality each are promised different things.

[Elhanan]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Rica is your sister, leske turns on you no matter what. You did, however, doom your fellows to a continued, miserable state.

 
Nope; the new House is open to all.

And since you've chosen and talked to Harrowmont as a Casteless, I do not see how you could not see him as anything but a stuck up elitist biggot, when interacted with as a Casteless. I certainly could not mistake his attitude for anything else.

Guess I must have left the chip on my shoulder in the party chest cause that never occured. But I was able to see Bhelen as a scavager clearly enough.

Yes he does. That's a big part of his epilogue slide. He passes more draconians laws that crush the casteless even further. They revolt, he slaughters a whole bunch of them and razes Dust Town to the ground. I've picked him twice.

In the largwer scheme of things it is. And Bhelen's a much better man, I think.

As mentioned, the conclusion you note is when you also save the Anvil. This is one act  I have only done once or twice. See below for the differences:

* If Harrowmont becomes king and the Anvil is destroyed, he will deal with Bhelen's rebellion for most of his reign. He will be unable to pass any significant legislation other than writs that further isolate Orzammar from the surface. He eventually dies, either from exhaustion with the court of deshyrs or poisoned. The resulting power vacuum creates a civil war among Orzammar's nobility.

* If Harrowmont is made the new king and the Anvil is saved, the new golems will be used to quickly crush Bhelen's rebellion. New laws will soon be passed further restricting the lower castes. While the casteless are furious and rebel openly, the nobility remains united behind Harrowmont. Dust Town is demolished as a result. Widespread outrage remains after the castless are defeated.

Modifié par Elhanan, 03 janvier 2011 - 10:25 .

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

If you talk with Bhelen and refer to the blight (either by siding with him or by double-crossing Harrowmount), he promises "by the mail of his ancestors" that he will do everything needed to give you the troops you need.  Bhelen is emphatic and unequivocable on this point.

Harrowmount on the other hand (you either have to side with Harrowmount or double-cross Bhelen) says on the Assembly can grant troops (which is not true in a time of blight if you talk with the Head Shaper...King Bemot did it without assembly permission) but if you backed him, he would petition the assembly to grant the troops.

That's very equivocable in my book.  On one side I get an unconditional promise for troops and on the other, I get equivocation and passing the buck on the Troops.

For my wardens, that's not a hard choice.-Polaris

As mentioned, I cannot get past Gavorn's attempted deceptions to talk with Bhelen, as I generally try to avoid aiding and abetting criminal activities (and politics altogether, but I digress). And all one has to do is take those papers to the Shaper to discover the truth; not Bhelen's & Gavorn's sly attempts to distort it.

[Eber]

IanPolaris wrote...

jvee wrote...

jpdipity wrote...
So, you have never tried siding with Bhelen first to get his side of the story?  You simply take Harrowmont at his word without looking at anything further.  Okay, that explains alot.

What side of the story are you referring to?

If you talk with Bhelen and refer to the blight (either by siding with him or by double-crossing Harrowmount), he promises "by the mail of his ancestors" that he will do everything needed to give you the troops you need.  Bhelen is emphatic and unequivocable on this point.

Harrowmount on the other hand (you either have to side with Harrowmount or double-cross Bhelen) says on the Assembly can grant troops (which is not true in a time of blight if you talk with the Head Shaper...King Bemot did it without assembly permission) but if you backed him, he would petition the assembly to grant the troops.

That's very equivocable in my book.  On one side I get an unconditional promise for troops and on the other, I get equivocation and passing the buck on the Troops.

For my wardens, that's not a hard choice.

-Polaris

Bhelen also swore he would back you if you kill Trian. I can't see why a dwarf noble of all people would care what Bhelen promises.

Any Warden should realize that Bhelen's word means little and that if Bhelen did not think it was in his interest to send troops he would never let a promise to you, or some old treaty, stop him from doing what was best for his kingdom. Bhelen knows better than to let his sense of morals stop him from doing what's right. One could make a case for Harrowmont being the pragmatic, and safe, choice seeing as how he is likely to feel honorbound to help you and act on that. Even if the help he is able to provide might be smaller because he is a less potent king it is safer in that it does not depend on being good for Harrowmont himself. Once Harrowmont is king he does promise you troops and might well send them even if it ment risking his own downfall. Meanwhile had the archdemon dragged the blight out and plagued the human lands exclusivly without allowing for an end-all battle early and for some reason Bhelen found himself in need of troops of his own he would call his men home in a heartbeat promises be damned.

Bhelen is the idealistic good hearted choice for those that want to make a conscious effort to make the world a better place.

Legnar: Let people see casteless have a purpose. The more cracks in the old way the better. That's what Bhelen stands for.

Modifié par Eber, 03 janvier 2011 - 11:11 .

[IanPolaris]

Eber wrote...
Bhelen also swore he would back you if you kill Trian. I can't see why a dwarf noble of all people would care what Bhelen promises.

False.  Bhelen very cleverly avoids making that promise. He wants you to think he swore to back you if you assassinate Trian, but he never actually says it in an unequivocable manner.  When it comes to your treaty as Warden he does.

My take on Dwarven politics is if a Dwarf noble promises something unequivocably in front of witnesses so it can't be denied later without extreme loss of face, it's probably a genuine promise (the apparence of honor is very important in Orzammar), and Bhelen does just that when he promises your troops.  On the other hand, if the same person implies such backing without actually ever saying it, it's a good possibility (even probability) you're being played.  That's true for any Dwarf politico.

-Polaris

[Eber]

IanPolaris wrote...

Eber wrote...
Bhelen also swore he would back you if you kill Trian. I can't see why a dwarf noble of all people would care what Bhelen promises.

False.  Bhelen very cleverly avoids making that promise. He wants you to think he swore to back you if you assassinate Trian, but he never actually says it in an unequivocable manner.  When it comes to your treaty as Warden he does.

-Polaris

I disagree.

Warden: If I strike at Trian, will you back me?
Bhelen: Of course. You've always been there for me.

Modifié par Eber, 03 janvier 2011 - 11:33 .

[IanPolaris]

Eber wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Eber wrote...
Bhelen also swore he would back you if you kill Trian. I can't see why a dwarf noble of all people would care what Bhelen promises.

False.  Bhelen very cleverly avoids making that promise. He wants you to think he swore to back you if you assassinate Trian, but he never actually says it in an unequivocable manner.  When it comes to your treaty as Warden he does.

-Polaris

I disagree.

Warden: If I strike at Trian, will you back me?
Bhelen: Of course. You've always been there for me.

Sure.  He says that with no witnesses and Bhelen never specifies what me means by :"back me". 

Indeed.....please show me the actual game dialog quotes because I am sure Bhelen is never even this direct.  By contrast when Bhelen promises troops, he swears by his ancestors (legally binding with dwarves) in front of a half dozen nobel witnesses.

Bhelen can deny the first conversation takes place (even if you are quoting it correctly).  He can't in the second place.  See the difference?  A DN Warden would and should undestand the difference right away.

-Polaris

Edit:  Basically Bhelen never promises in a way that would be recognized as a valid promise with dwarves (since it wasn't made in front of witnesses...and Gorim as your  batman doesn't count...as you find out later).  That's what I mean by Bhelen doesn't promise but cleverly makes you think he has.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 03 janvier 2011 - 11:29 .

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan,



In addition to all the rest, you are the one guilty of metagaming. There is no assurance in game that you will become a paragon. Indeed, in game, you have every reason to think you won't be (since paragon status is granted only rarely and almost never more than once in a generation....and you and Branka are of the same approx generation).



Sure you can ask for it, but you have no reason to think it will be granted.



-Polaris