240 réponses à ce sujet

[Eber]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sure.  He says that with no witnesses and Bhelen never specifies what me means by :"back me". 

Indeed.....please show me the actual game dialog quotes because I am sure Bhelen is never even this direct.  By contrast when Bhelen promises troops, he swears by his ancestors (legally binding with dwarves) in front of a half dozen nobel witnesses.

Bhelen can deny the first conversation takes place (even if you are quoting it correctly).  He can't in the second place.  See the difference?  A DN Warden would and should undestand the difference right away.

-Polaris

PC line
Bhelen's response

To get these dialogue options you need to chose "What's your angle in this?".

This is right next to the Proving Master if you have the conversation there though I think you are to assume he does not listen in. The promise about sending troops is made in Bhelen's room is it not? Everyone there is Bhelen's men. It's the same place he discusses planting false evidence linking Harrowmont to the Carta if you play the backstab route with presumably the same people present. Neither of these are public promises Bhelen has any reason to feel bound by.

Modifié par Eber, 03 janvier 2011 - 11:45 .

[IanPolaris]

Eber wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sure.  He says that with no witnesses and Bhelen never specifies what me means by :"back me". 

Indeed.....please show me the actual game dialog quotes because I am sure Bhelen is never even this direct.  By contrast when Bhelen promises troops, he swears by his ancestors (legally binding with dwarves) in front of a half dozen nobel witnesses.

Bhelen can deny the first conversation takes place (even if you are quoting it correctly).  He can't in the second place.  See the difference?  A DN Warden would and should undestand the difference right away.

-Polaris

PC line
Bhelen's response

To get these dialogue options you need to chose "What's your angle in this?".

This is right next to the Proving Master if you have the conversation there though I think you are to assume he does not listen in. The promise about sending troops is made in Bhelen's room is it not? Everyone there is Bhelen's men. It's the same place he discusses planting false evidence linking Harrowmont to the Carta if you play the backstab route with presumably the same people present. Neither of these are public promises Bhelen has any reason to feel bound by.

No it's not.  You have this conversation in front of Gorim.  Do you really think Bhelen would discuss anything of the sort in front of the Proving Master?  Please.

It also doesn't count as a promise....not by Dwarf standards.  What Bhelen says in public about troops does.  Also Harrowmount lies to you about needing the Assembly to give you troops.  The Shaper tells you that.

-Polaris

Edit:  You only have this conversation after you find Trian (and you are told he's in his rooms) after Trian has left.  No witnesses (Gorim doesn't count) == No promise....and it's not like your PC presses Bhelen for an explicit promise.

Edit 2:  Also Bhelen technically, technically, doesn't break it even if you do think it's a promise.  You never tell Bhelen not to tell Endrin or Harrowmount that you are going to kill Trian.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 03 janvier 2011 - 11:53 .

[Eber]

I just took these screenshots right next to the Proving Master. If you don't go to the proving by yourself earlier you meet up with Bhelen and Trian there. And I again question the fact that Bhelen promises you troops in public before being made king. He talks to you in his room. The same place he asks you to plant false evidence.

Modifié par Eber, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:26 .

[IanPolaris]

Eber wrote...

I just took these screenshots right next to the Proving Master. If you don't go to the proving by yourself earlier you meet up with Bhelen and Trian there. And I again question the fact that Bhelen promises you troops in public before being made king. He talks to you in his room. The same place he asks you to plant false evidence.

Bhelen never asks you to plant false evidence.  VG does.

Again, what you are quoting is a far cry from anythjing I consider to be a promise, and as I pointed out, at no point does Bhelen promise NOT to rat you out himself.  At best you can argue that he promises to back you if someone else does that and that's reading a lot into the words that aren't there.

He does, however, unequivocably promise you support in the form of troops and Harrowmount does not (and Harrowmount also lies about this...or at least misleads).

Not a hard choice.  Really it isn't.  You just despise Bhelen.  I do too, but as a Warden I can't afford to let that influence me.

-Polaris

Edit:  Bhelen never promises anything of the sort.  As I said above, at best he promises to back you presumably if Trian or his agents attack you.  In no way does Bhelen ever promise not to do what he did....and obviously he does it in such a way that you never noticed.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:25 .

[Eber]

You are right about Gavorn being the one asking you to plant the carta documents. I misplaced that event. You'll have to substitute that sentence with something like "the same place he hints that you should kill Branka if she is a bother".

I don't hate Bhelen in the slightest. Quite the contrary. My love of Bhelen is part of why I argue this point. If Bhelen was a man that would not break his word when it benefited him I would consider that a big fault of his.

Anyway I just checked Bhelen's room out. There are three people in there other than the prince himself all labeled "Bhelen fanatic" and dressed accordingly (full armor) and then Gavorn is just outside by the door with two "royal guards". I'd say that amounts to zero witnesses worth caring about. I would not consider this promise public.

Modifié par Eber, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:33 .

[IanPolaris]

Here is the upshot. If you are not a DN, you have no reason to take (or not take) Bhelen's word over Harrowmount's or vice versa. In fact the information you get is both are corrupt, Harrowmount may be more 'forgiving' (as Lord Helmi puts it), but Prince Bhelen is a reformer that is clever as sin and wants it more.



If you are a DN, you realize that Bhelen tricked you....he didn't betray you because he never promised NOT to reveal you as a kinslayer (or lie about it depending on how it goes) just a nebulous, "I'll back you" which is hardly the same thing as I explain above. You also know from painful personal experience how ineffectual Lord Harrowmount is (if he was so terrific a leader then why weren't you tried according to custom?)



Finally Bhelen gives an unequivocable promise of troops (which the Shaper confirms is within the rights of a King during a blight) and Harrowmount refuses to do so.



Given two flawed candidates, to me the answer is clear: Go with the one that gives you the best support for your treaty and that's Bhelen.



-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Eber,



The point is Bhelen is very clever about what he promises and I think you are completely missing this. He never promises not to betray you himself. At best he promises to back you if someone else does.



-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Yes, but Bhelen never says you should kill Branka. Again, he's very clever about that.



-Polaris

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Elhanan wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Rica is your sister, leske turns on you no matter what. You did, however, doom your fellows to a continued, miserable state.

 
Nope; the new House is open to all.

Riiiight, because of course, you will have a house featuring all of dust town, and anyone else who comes along. Well, good luck getting the money and support to build the necessary facilities. Not to mention caste in Orzammar doesn't exactly work that way.

Guess I must have left the chip on my shoulder in the party chest cause that never occured. But I was able to see Bhelen as a scavager clearly enough.

Or you left you ability to note the obvious back in camp. It wasn't exactly hard to miss.

As mentioned, the conclusion you note is when you also save the Anvil. This is one act  I have only done once or twice. See below for the differences:

* If Harrowmont becomes king and the Anvil is destroyed, he will deal with Bhelen's rebellion for most of his reign. He will be unable to pass any significant legislation other than writs that further isolate Orzammar from the surface. He eventually dies, either from exhaustion with the court of deshyrs or poisoned. The resulting power vacuum creates a civil war among Orzammar's nobility.

* If Harrowmont is made the new king and the Anvil is saved, the new golems will be used to quickly crush Bhelen's rebellion. New laws will soon be passed further restricting the lower castes. While the casteless are furious and rebel openly, the nobility remains united behind Harrowmont. Dust Town is demolished as a result. Widespread outrage remains after the castless are defeated.

The only difference between these epilogues is that one does not give Harrowmont the golems he needs to successfully and quickly stomp the rebellion, so he does not have the time and resources to pass the laws, crush the casteless, raze Dust Town to the ground. Harrowmont is still capable of it. He is still that kind of person. That doesn't change, only whether or not he has the ability to fully act.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Rica is your sister, leske turns on you no matter what. You did, however, doom your fellows to a continued, miserable state.

 
Nope; the new House is open to all.

You simply cannot put every single casteless dwarf in Orzammar into your new house. If you don't care about the casteless dwarves you don't happen to know/aren't willing to be used like Bhelen uses them in reclaiming the Deep Roads then I can see why you wouldn't let Harrowmont not caring about the casteless stop you from supporting him but you can't deny that you are dooming a majority of the casteless to just more of the same.

It also doesn't count as a promise....not by Dwarf standards.  What Bhelen says in public about troops does.  Also Harrowmount lies to you about needing the Assembly to give you troops.  The Shaper tells you that.

I don't think he's lying, exactly. He just feels the need to have the Assembly vote on something that is in his power to grant. That's a sign of weakness and overreliance on the Assembly but not dishonesty.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 04 janvier 2011 - 01:31 .

[Collider]

Gabey5 wrote...

 what does he say if you go this route?

The dialog if your dwarf noble volunteered to kill Triann but still gets angry at Bhelen for turning on him, is one of my favorite in the entire game.

[Sarah1281]

Collider wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

 what does he say if you go this route?

The dialog if your dwarf noble volunteered to kill Triann but still gets angry at Bhelen for turning on him, is one of my favorite in the entire game.

Oh, mine too! 

(IF: Killed_Trian) 2. I only killed Trian because you said he was out to get me.
Bhelen: "Please. It's not like you were hard to convince. "Oh, dear. He may try to kill you." "Oops. Can't let that happen. Have to get to him first." (VO: sarcastic, condescending -- making fun of the player)

Although if you didn't kill Trian, his line is pretty good as well:

(IF: Framed) 3. You're wrong. I never plotted against you or Trian.
Bhelen: "You should thank me then; you could never handle the throne. A king of Orzammar has to be ruthless. He has to tell the Assembly to snap to or shut down." (VO: a little disdainful)
Bhelen: "He has to accept that in any battle, against darkspawn or politicians, there are casualties. Neither you nor Harrowmont is that king." (VO: determined, confident)

That's why I never choose those lines. I'm not just going to walk right into Bhelen owning me.

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

Elhanan,

In addition to all the rest, you are the one guilty of metagaming. There is no assurance in game that you will become a paragon. Indeed, in game, you have every reason to think you won't be (since paragon status is granted only rarely and almost never more than once in a generation....and you and Branka are of the same approx generation).

Sure you can ask for it, but you have no reason to think it will be granted.-Polaris

Let me understand: I am meta-gaming because I can not be assured to have any final position to help the Casteless as either a DN or DC, so my motivations must be impure to want to aid them by choosing Harrowmont over Bhelen. If so, perhaps there are possible foundations I may use to bolster my good RP name within this community:

* As a DN, I also am on record as granting the Surface Dwarves the return of their former standings. And on occasion, I was not even paid to do this. And I know that Bhelen killed Trian and had me set up to take the fall; having me exiled to the Deep Roads without a fair hearing on the matter.
 
* As a DC, the Kinslayer is in my sister's bed, and she and my nephew's life may be at risk as one day he may be considered a threat to the throne. Or perhaps I simply do not trust the Nugdropping, as he was doing business with my former employer and Jarvia.

* As either, I also know I have a possible ally in Helmi. And while within your game, the Assembly will always oppose such a  vote, in my game we always have hope to bring about proper reform; no cheating or murder required. After all, I do have max Coersion.



But since the meta-gaming guantlet has been cast, does choosing Bhelen knowing that this the more prosperous outcome for Orzammar have anything to do with yoiur selection? Or do you really believe the propaganda, rumors, and gossip that Bhelen really cares about the Casteless as opposed to the evidence that indicates he has the same scruples of an Antivan Crow?

[Sarah1281]

Or do you really believe the propaganda, rumors, and gossip that Bhelen really cares about the Casteless as opposed to the evidence that indicates he has the same scruples of an Antivan Crow?

I don't think anyone actually think he gives a damn about the casteless. He just doesn't dismiss them like Harrowmont does and since he seems the type to make use of everything and everyone, he would not just ignore the casteless like everyone else has. Throwning them a bone (like, say, being paid or legally existing) would benefit his agenda and improve life for the casteless.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You simply cannot put every single casteless dwarf in Orzammar into your new house. If you don't care about the casteless dwarves you don't happen to know/aren't willing to be used like Bhelen uses them in reclaiming the Deep Roads then I can see why you wouldn't let Harrowmont not caring about the casteless stop you from supporting him but you can't deny that you are dooming a majority of the casteless to just more of the same....

Actually, I can choose to do what I am able to make a change, even a small one. Paragon's are considered living ancestors, after all, so there may be influence within the Assembly.

And I do deny dooming Orzammar to more of the same. I am simply unwilling to placing a murderous jackel on the Throne to achieve this goal of reform.

Modifié par Elhanan, 04 janvier 2011 - 03:57 .

[Sarah1281]

Just because the word doom has negative connoations does not mean that not putting a "murderous jackel" on the throne who will reform things and thus leaving Orzammar nice and un-reformed is not leaving things, well, nice and un-reformed. A Paragon does not have any more official power than any other deshyr does. Most of their power is unofficial and while they are greatly respected, there is only so far you can push that before the other deshyrs decide not to listen and Harrowmont (even if he were on your side) isn't strong enough to force them to listen.

[Collider]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

 what does he say if you go this route?

The dialog if your dwarf noble volunteered to kill Triann but still gets angry at Bhelen for turning on him, is one of my favorite in the entire game.

Oh, mine too! 

(IF: Killed_Trian) 2. I only killed Trian because you said he was out to get me.
Bhelen: "Please. It's not like you were hard to convince. "Oh, dear. He may try to kill you." "Oops. Can't let that happen. Have to get to him first." (VO: sarcastic, condescending -- making fun of the player)

Although if you didn't kill Trian, his line is pretty good as well:

(IF: Framed) 3. You're wrong. I never plotted against you or Trian.
Bhelen: "You should thank me then; you could never handle the throne. A king of Orzammar has to be ruthless. He has to tell the Assembly to snap to or shut down." (VO: a little disdainful)
Bhelen: "He has to accept that in any battle, against darkspawn or politicians, there are casualties. Neither you nor Harrowmont is that king." (VO: determined, confident)

That's why I never choose those lines. I'm not just going to walk right into Bhelen owning me.

Thanks, I was looking for that

[Eber]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Or do you really believe the propaganda, rumors, and gossip that Bhelen really cares about the Casteless as opposed to the evidence that indicates he has the same scruples of an Antivan Crow?

I don't think anyone actually think he gives a damn about the casteless. He just doesn't dismiss them like Harrowmont does and since he seems the type to make use of everything and everyone, he would not just ignore the casteless like everyone else has. Throwning them a bone (like, say, being paid or legally existing) would benefit his agenda and improve life for the casteless.

Exactly. Bhelen does not care about the casteless. He simply recognizes that they can be useful. That they "have a purpose" if I use the great Legnar's wording. The casteless are banned from working for crying out loud. It doesn't take a genius to realize that integrating them into the workforce might serve to increase production and make Orzammar richer. A richer and more powerful kingdom is more important to Bhelen than preserving customs and maintaing a strict hierarchy that benefit some. To Harrowmont it is not.

A noble that cares for the casteless just because would be Helmi. That's a man with no real drive to change anything and no supporters. He's happy sitting in a bar telling people how things should be without lifting a finger to change anything, useless to the casteless.

Modifié par Eber, 04 janvier 2011 - 05:14 .

[BigBad]

I think Elhanan overestimates a Paragon's political power somewhat. Yes, Paragons are revered, and yes, they can be extremely influential if they're smart (i.e. don't go the Branka route), but all the real power in Orzammar comes from the assembly and the throne.



Both of these positions are controlled by members of the Noble caste. Orzammar nobles are vicious, scheming, backstabbing bastards. They have to be because Orzammar politics is brutal. Those who aren't, are noted as being unusual and tend to be more or less ineffective at achieving anything of significance. These are the type of people who are not going to let their reverence of a living ancestor get in the way of their own agendas. Instead, they will begin jockeying, lobbying, and manipulating you so that they can use you to their own ends. If they can't, they will instead oppose you in other arenas, such as through the Warrior or Artisan houses sworn to you.



Honestly, if you start trying to single-handedly reform Orzammar as a Paragon (especially while it has a weak but ultra-conservative King), then I really wouldn't put it past the Assembly or even a single house to arrange a situation for a political rival of yours to be named Paragon, just to mitigate your influence. After/if the assassins fail, of course. Never, ever underestimate the capacity of Orzammar nobles for underhanded scheming, especially when you threaten their self-interest. You don't become a successful noble by being altruistic in Orzammar.



I think the best way to reform Orzammar is to destroy the Anvil, crown Bhelen, request aid from the humans, accept Paragon status, and present yourself as a political ally to him, working closely for the best interests of Orzammar. Bhelen is a snake, yeah, but he's a strong king, extremely savvy politician, and it is canon that Orzammar prospers under his rule. I can't really hold the kinslaying against him, since my DN had no less than three dwarves killed in his origin story alone (Bruntin for disrespect, the weapon merchant for speaking out of turn and insulting the heir, and Dace's heir for Dace's scheming).



Side Note: even if you speak on Lord Dace's behalf in the DN origin, you never actually see the results of the vote for the issue you are endorsing. And considering how you are very shortly disgraced and Endrin is still King (and is more or less just as conservative as Harrowmont, very popular, and not to mention savvy enough to see through the plot and arrange his allies to vote otherwise), I can't imagine it passed.

[Pro_Consul]

Elhanan wrote...

Let me understand: I am meta-gaming because I can not be assured to have any final position to help the Casteless as either a DN or DC, so my motivations must be impure to want to aid them by choosing Harrowmont over Bhelen. If so, perhaps there are possible foundations I may use to bolster my good RP name within this community:

* As a DN, I also am on record as granting the Surface Dwarves the return of their former standings. And on occasion, I was not even paid to do this. And I know that Bhelen killed Trian and had me set up to take the fall; having me exiled to the Deep Roads without a fair hearing on the matter.

 
You should also recall that since your name was stripped from you that leaves Bhelen as the last living Aeducan, so by killing him in your effort to make Harrowmont king you are also destroying your own father's name and House for all time. Or if you do not kill him, then you are merely setting him up to continue being the murderer (as a rebel) you say you oppose, and undermining the king you chose. Also remember that while Bhelen was arranging for you to not get your fair hearing, Harrowmont was busy being too cowardly to say two words against this in the Assembly even though the law was 100% on your side in the matter of being entitled to a trial. Either that or he was, for his own reasons, just as anxious to see you sent off to your death as Bhelen was. And then we return to the issue that Polaris keeps pointing to: the troops. Recall that your only reason for even returning to Orzammar is to get those troops to help against the Blight. And yet you are accepting Harrowmont's offer to ask the Assembly to give you troops, but no promises mind, even after he proved that he couldn't even influence the Assembly to give you the fair hearing to which you were entitled under the law? Seems to me more like you are abdicating your duty as a Warden out of spite against your brother. Not saying you are, mind, but when I look at this logically it is the only conclusion that seems to really make sense.

Elhanan wrote...

* As a DC, the Kinslayer is in my sister's bed, and she and my nephew's life may be at risk as one day he may be considered a threat to the throne. Or perhaps I simply do not trust the Nugdropping, as he was doing business with my former employer and Jarvia.

As a DC you spent a LOT of effort trying to get your sister INTO his bed, for the express purpose of getting her and yourself adopted into a noble House. And you spent your time back then thumping heads, breaking legs and committing murders on behalf of the patron who was financing those efforts to get her into Bhelen's bed. Your moral high ground isn't really all that high from this angle. And now here it is, she has a chance not just to get adopted into a noble house but into the King's own household, and you are going to suddenly reverse your field and oppose this just because the king-to-be's own hands turn out to be as dirty as your own? And please explain how much safer your nephew's life could be than as the King's firstborn son? Support Bhelen successfully and your nephew becomes heir apparent; oppose him successfully and your nephew becomes a threat to the throne of the man you supported, i.e. Harrowmont. No logic in this position at all, I'm afraid. Only a little bit of hypocrisy and lot of self-destruction.

Elhanan wrote...

* As either, I also know I have a possible ally in Helmi. And while within your game, the Assembly will always oppose such a  vote, in my game we always have hope to bring about proper reform; no cheating or murder required. After all, I do have max Coersion.

Max coercion is not likely to do you any good when you speaking from the position of either the DN or DC. The former is a convicted kinslayer (and casteless surfacer) who didn't have the decency to die when his death sentence was executed, and the latter a casteless surfacer who was guilty of a capital crime against a noble and was only saved from his just execution by the intervention of a Grey Warden. I'm afraid you are in no position to think you can talk the Assembly into anything, Helmi or no Helmi.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:41 .

[Pro_Consul]

Elhanan wrote...

And I do deny dooming Orzammar to more of the same. I am simply unwilling to placing a murderous jackel on the Throne to achieve this goal of reform.

Actually you are putting a different murderous jackal on the throne out of reluctance to put the first murderous jackal on the throne. Or doesn't Harrowmont's oppression and subsequent slaughter of the casteless qualify him as a murderous jackal in your book?

[Sarah1281]

You should also recall that since your name was stripped from you that leaves Bhelen as the last living Aeducan, so by killing him in your effort to make Harrowmont king you are also destroying your own father's name and House for all time.

That's not quite true. House Aeducan has more members than just the main royal family. Piotin Aeducan is Bhelen's first cousin, for instance, and Baizyl Harrowmont is being blackmailed through his affair with an Aeducan girl who isn't anywhere near the throne. Piotin also tells you that the Assembly should have gone to every last Aeducan (and he made it seem like a lot) before looking for a king from a different house. Killing Bhelen really hurts House Aeducan (especially given that some die in the rebellion) but it's not gone forever.

Max coercion is not likely to do you any good when you speaking from the position of either the DN or DC. The former is a convicted kinslayer (and casteless surfacer) who didn't have the decency to die when his death sentence was executed, and the latter a casteless surfacer who was guilty of a capital crime against a noble and was only saved from his just execution by the intervention of a Grey Warden. I'm afraid you are in no position to think you can talk the Assembly into anything, Helmi or no Helmi.

I think this is post-game we're talking about where you're a Paragon which puts you in a slightly better position but still not nearly enough to get that kind of a thing accomplished.

[BigBad]

Um, small point of order. I don't recall the DC ever committing a capital crime against a noble. Oskias was a surfacer. The fighters you defeat in the Provings were presumably all Warrior caste, as implied by a dialogue option with Leske. Beraht is definitively not a noble, as his whole plan with Rica is all about becoming one. I'd peg him as an ambitious Merchant caste. His thugs are all casteless.

[Sarah1281]

I think the DC death sentence was for impersonating Everd who was a warrior.

[BigBad]

Leske says something like "Loss of your left hand for stealing the armor, loss of your right hand for befouling a smith's work, public flaying for impersonating a higher caste, and if that doesn't kill you, they'll put you to death for polluting the Proving."