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[Elhanan]

BigBad wrote...

I think Elhanan overestimates a Paragon's political power somewhat. Yes, Paragons are revered, and yes, they can be extremely influential if they're smart (i.e. don't go the Branka route), but all the real power in Orzammar comes from the assembly and the throne.

Both of these positions are controlled by members of the Noble caste. Orzammar nobles are vicious, scheming, backstabbing bastards. They have to be because Orzammar politics is brutal. Those who aren't, are noted as being unusual and tend to be more or less ineffective at achieving anything of significance. These are the type of people who are not going to let their reverence of a living ancestor get in the way of their own agendas. Instead, they will begin jockeying, lobbying, and manipulating you so that they can use you to their own ends. If they can't, they will instead oppose you in other arenas, such as through the Warrior or Artisan houses sworn to you.

Honestly, if you start trying to single-handedly reform Orzammar as a Paragon (especially while it has a weak but ultra-conservative King), then I really wouldn't put it past the Assembly or even a single house to arrange a situation for a political rival of yours to be named Paragon, just to mitigate your influence. After/if the assassins fail, of course. Never, ever underestimate the capacity of Orzammar nobles for underhanded scheming, especially when you threaten their self-interest. You don't become a successful noble by being altruistic in Orzammar.

I think the best way to reform Orzammar is to destroy the Anvil, crown Bhelen, request aid from the humans, accept Paragon status, and present yourself as a political ally to him, working closely for the best interests of Orzammar. Bhelen is a snake, yeah, but he's a strong king, extremely savvy politician, and it is canon that Orzammar prospers under his rule. I can't really hold the kinslaying against him, since my DN had no less than three dwarves killed in his origin story alone (Bruntin for disrespect, the weapon merchant for speaking out of turn and insulting the heir, and Dace's heir for Dace's scheming).

Or I could replace Harrowmont after he passes as either King Aeducan, or as Regent to my nephew Aeducan. And I did not go out of my way as a Warden to murder Trian or others, though I have played those paths to see them. I played the DN as savy enough to see something was amiss, so I took all the gold I could. And the DC is a rags to riches story. Both stories are now part of the Shaperate, as well as listing any Casteless that have joined the new House.

The best way to reform Orzammar is to cease deleting history from the official records so that our culture does not repeat past errors, IMO.

Side Note: even if you speak on Lord Dace's behalf in the DN origin, you never actually see the results of the vote for the issue you are endorsing. And considering how you are very shortly disgraced and Endrin is still King (and is more or less just as conservative as Harrowmont, very popular, and not to mention savvy enough to see through the plot and arrange his allies to vote otherwise), I can't imagine it passed.

I seem to recall Trian being upset with his celebrated brother for costing the House(s) gold for this act, so it seems to have been made official. Plus it helps make things easier to return from the Surface if I survive, and so choose.

Modifié par Elhanan, 04 janvier 2011 - 10:27 .

[Pro_Consul]

BigBad wrote...

Um, small point of order. I don't recall the DC ever committing a capital crime against a noble.

My bad. Impersonating a higher caste is a capital crime, but not a capital crime against a noble. Still carries a death sentence, though.

[Elhanan]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Actually you are putting a different murderous jackal on the throne out of reluctance to put the first murderous jackal on the throne. Or doesn't Harrowmont's oppression and subsequent slaughter of the casteless qualify him as a murderous jackal in your book?

My book does not have any record of such an occurance as I have only saved the Anvil for an army once as an Evil Mage Warden. And this one chose Bhelen, too. So it is Harrowmont and the Paragon for the win!

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Just because the word doom has negative connoations does not mean that not putting a "murderous jackel" on the throne who will reform things and thus leaving Orzammar nice and un-reformed is not leaving things, well, nice and un-reformed. A Paragon does not have any more official power than any other deshyr does. Most of their power is unofficial and while they are greatly respected, there is only so far you can push that before the other deshyrs decide not to listen and Harrowmont (even if he were on your side) isn't strong enough to force them to listen.

I may delay such reform a few more years, but at least when it comes, it will not be Bhelen on the throne to gather the laurels; nor myself. I shall allow such accolades fall to Gorim/ Rica as it suits the Origin.

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

Actually you are putting a different murderous jackal on the throne out of reluctance to put the first murderous jackal on the throne. Or doesn't Harrowmont's oppression and subsequent slaughter of the casteless qualify him as a murderous jackal in your book?

My book does not have any record of such an occurance as I have only saved the Anvil for an army once as an Evil Mage Warden. And this one chose Bhelen, too. So it is Harrowmont and the Paragon for the win!

That's only because Harrowmount is so weak willed and ineffective that he can't put down Bhelen's rebellion and do what he wants before he is poisoned...and then things get really ugly.  Give Harrowmount power (i.e. Golems) and he shows his true colours and they aren't nice.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Just because the word doom has negative connoations does not mean that not putting a "murderous jackel" on the throne who will reform things and thus leaving Orzammar nice and un-reformed is not leaving things, well, nice and un-reformed. A Paragon does not have any more official power than any other deshyr does. Most of their power is unofficial and while they are greatly respected, there is only so far you can push that before the other deshyrs decide not to listen and Harrowmont (even if he were on your side) isn't strong enough to force them to listen.

I may delay such reform a few more years, but at least when it comes, it will not be Bhelen on the throne to gather the laurels; nor myself. I shall allow such accolades fall to Gorim/ Rica as it suits the Origin.

You do understand that you have at most thirty years to live and probably less.  I hope you do understand that every noble family will be gunning for you?  Count your breaths because they won't be many.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

I seem to recall Trian being upset with his celebrated brother for costing the House(s) gold for this act, so it seems to have been made official. Plus it helps make things easier to return from the Surface if I survive, and so choose.

This is a non-sequitor.  Trian could be just as easily upset with you for costing your family money (and more importantly prestigue) needed to counter the damnfool thing you did.

-Polaris

[BigBad]

Huh? Gorim and Rica are political non-entities. Rica, especially so.



It seems your plan is to crown Harrowmont, knowing he is a weak king, become a Paragon and use that leverage to succeed him, whereupon you will begin to reformwhat Bhelen does, only without stooping to anything underhanded or immoral. I give it a year or less before the constant assassination attempts either drive you out of Orzammar and back to the surface, force you to retaliate and pretty much declare war on the deshyrs, or do exactly what Bhelen does for the same reason and dissolve the assembly, setting yourself up as a dictator.



I have nothing against playing an honorable, noble character, and I think all roleplaying choices are equally valid, but I just can't see a character this rigidly black-and-white and dead-set on rocking the boat surviving in Orzammar politics. Orzammar is not a nice place, and it doesn't really breed nice people (exceptions exist, but they are just that, exceptional). From Dust Town to the Diamond Quarter, self-interest is a matter of survival, and survival comes first.

[Pro_Consul]

Elhanan wrote...

Or I could replace Harrowmont after he passes as either King Aeducan, or as Regent to my nephew Aeducan.

You honestly think the deshyrs would ever allow a "brand" to rule as regent, Paragon or no?

[BigBad]

I think that Paragon status does actually eclipse your former status as a casteless. I mean, house Bemot was also founded by a casteless (I think, maybe just a lower caste commoner) who became King and Paragon at the same time, and Gherlon the Blood-Risen was a casteless-turned-surfacer who became both King and Paragon.

[Elhanan]

BigBad wrote...

Huh? Gorim and Rica are political non-entities. Rica, especially so.

Gorim is restored as Second, granted Aeducan House status before and after you gain Paragon honors, and is also made into a Noble Caste, or regains Warrior rank again; cannot recall.

Rica is made into an Ambassador, is possibly the Queen Mother, and is also granted high status within House Aeducan.

In both cases, I will elevate their status by gifting them said laurels for politicl achievements.

It seems your plan is to crown Harrowmont, knowing he is a weak king, become a Paragon and use that leverage to succeed him, whereupon you will begin to reformwhat Bhelen does, only without stooping to anything underhanded or immoral. I give it a year or less before the constant assassination attempts either drive you out of Orzammar and back to the surface, force you to retaliate and pretty much declare war on the deshyrs, or do exactly what Bhelen does for the same reason and dissolve the assembly, setting yourself up as a dictator.

I have nothing against playing an honorable, noble character, and I think all roleplaying choices are equally valid, but I just can't see a character this rigidly black-and-white and dead-set on rocking the boat surviving in Orzammar politics. Orzammar is not a nice place, and it doesn't really breed nice people (exceptions exist, but they are just that, exceptional). From Dust Town to the Diamond Quarter, self-interest is a matter of survival, and survival comes first.

I grant the crown to Harrowmont in the hope he will be a stronger King, but will attempt to succeed him when he fails. If assassins do come, they may find their task more difficult esp if I have Gorim, Lil, and Zev as family advisors. And if playing a noble Noble is difficult, such is the cost of reforming the morality as well as the Caste system.

P.S. As for the thirty year problem, I know where the Ashes are stored!

Modifié par Elhanan, 04 janvier 2011 - 01:48 .

[Sarah1281]

I seem to recall Trian being upset with his celebrated brother for costing the House(s) gold for this act, so it seems to have been made official. Plus it helps make things easier to return from the Surface if I survive, and so choose.

Trian is upset because you so clearly allow yourself to be bribed and he seems to have some very naive ideas about that kind of thing.

(IF: Dace_QuestComplete) Trian: "Selling your favor to Lord Dace, I could overlook." (VO: Scornful and sneering)

The vote cannot possibly have passed no matter what you do on it. Why do we know that? Because a year later the surface dwarves not allowed into Orzammar have no caste. The guard says that Orzammar will accept none but its own and if they had a caste they would qualify. If you say that you were born in Orzammar and thus should be let in, he tells you you gave up your caste when you went to the surface:

Dwarf: I was born in Orzammar. Let me pass.
Guard: Any dwarf who chooses to walk topside chooses to be excluded.

I also strongly feel that such an important issue (not stripping anyone who leaves of citizenship and not making them drawn brands on their face when they visit) wouldn't be decided by an optional side-quest in one of the origins and then - if passed - never mentioned again. People are angry at the DN because he embarrasses the house and if the vote did pass it would cost House Aeducan a lot of money.

Or I could replace Harrowmont after he passes as either King Aeducan, or as Regent to my nephew Aeducan.

MAYBE a DN could pull off becoming king but I doubt there is any way an underage Endrin could do it. People went through a great deal of effort to get the Aeducans off of the throne so until Endrin can get on the throne through his own connections, I don't think they'll be very receptive to putting him on especially if he'll need someone else to rule through him.

I may delay such reform a few more years, but at least when it comes, it will not be Bhelen on the throne to gather the laurels; nor myself. I shall allow such accolades fall to Gorim/ Rica as it suits the Origin.

Gorim might know something about politics even if he hates it and would not at all appreciate being made to deal with that any more than he has to as a second but Rica knows nothing about politics. At all. She is only made ambassador in DC games as clear nepotism.

I'm really getting the feeling that you think saving Orzammar will be far easier than it actually is. Bhelen manages it, yes (at least temporarily. Who knows what his successors will do?), but I don't think that even he could have managed it without dissolving the Assembly and ruling alone. If you have to work with the Assembly, which you do unless you make king and do the same as Bhelen did which would be very 'dictator'-like of you, then there will be dozens of them trying to block even the smallest of reforms.

Edit: And I'm also pretty sure that WoG said that the Ashes couldn't fight the taint (that would be far too easy, after all) but I don't know where the quote is.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 04 janvier 2011 - 04:11 .

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Trian is upset because you so clearly allow yourself to be bribed and he seems to have some very naive ideas about that kind of thing.

(IF: Dace_QuestComplete) Trian: "Selling your favor to Lord Dace, I could overlook." (VO: Scornful and sneering)

I believed there was more; sometimes I did not take the bribe. But my memory is fading since I use those coins more frequently now.

The vote cannot possibly have passed no matter what you do on it. Why do we know that? Because a year later the surface dwarves not allowed into Orzammar have no caste. The guard says that Orzammar will accept none but its own and if they had a caste they would qualify. If you say that you were born in Orzammar and thus should be let in, he tells you you gave up your caste when you went to the surface:

Dwarf: I was born in Orzammar. Let me pass.
Guard: Any dwarf who chooses to walk topside chooses to be excluded.

Excellent point; yet another political promise that fails to be kept.

I also strongly feel that such an important issue (not stripping anyone who leaves of citizenship and not making them drawn brands on their face when they visit) wouldn't be decided by an optional side-quest in one of the origins and then - if passed - never mentioned again. People are angry at the DN because he embarrasses the house and if the vote did pass it would cost House Aeducan a lot of money.

heh! My first DC Warden did not have the brand. I skipped it during design, then rather than restart, I explained it as being removed took all my purse; hence starting with nothing. And I remind all that it was Bhelen that shames the House by killing off family; held by some as the most important commodity.

MAYBE a DN could pull off becoming king but I doubt there is any way an underage Endrin could do it. People went through a great deal of effort to get the Aeducans off of the throne so until Endrin can get on the throne through his own connections, I don't think they'll be very receptive to putting him on especially if he'll need someone else to rule through him. 

 

Perhaps, but I was contemplating the conclusion to Gladiator, and thinking that not all young rulers are reviled; some have propered well historically.

Gorim might know something about politics even if he hates it and would not at all appreciate being made to deal with that any more than he has to as a second but Rica knows nothing about politics. At all. She is only made ambassador in DC games as clear nepotism.

And I think her experience as a kept woman might serve her quite well, as she might have sources and intel of several other Houses.

I'm really getting the feeling that you think saving Orzammar will be far easier than it actually is. Bhelen manages it, yes (at least temporarily. Who knows what his successors will do?), but I don't think that even he could have managed it without dissolving the Assembly and ruling alone. If you have to work with the Assembly, which you do unless you make king and do the same as Bhelen did which would be very 'dictator'-like of you, then there will be dozens of them trying to block even the smallest of reforms.

Edit: And I'm also pretty sure that WoG said that the Ashes couldn't fight the taint (that would be far too easy, after all) but I don't know where the quote is.

Perhaps I am unusually optimistic, but I stand by the notion that one does not need to be a cruel, calculating pile of tripe like Bhelen to be successful. Too many RL examples of more worthy rulers; plus the DN & DC Paragons end the game being loved unanimously. *and they were forced to eat the minstrils; yeah*

Modifié par Elhanan, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:34 .

[Pro_Consul]

Elhanan wrote...

Perhaps, but I was contemplating the conclusion to Gladiator, and thinking that not all young rulers are reviled; some have propered well historically.

Yeah, like Octavian. He killed his own brother in law, turned the Roman senate into nothing but a pro forma symbol and became a total dictator. But he greatly improved the lot of the common people, reformed citizenship and land owning rights, ended a destructive cycle of civil wars...and incidentally ended the republican form of government in Rome. But he was renamed as "Augustus Caesar" by a grateful populace and remembered as the best ruler the Roman Empire ever had, to the point that after the fall of Rome centuries later many other countries made the title of their ruler some transliterated version of "Caesar", e.g. Csar, Kaiser etc. But wait, his background sounds more like Bhelen's...my bad.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 05 janvier 2011 - 01:44 .

[Elhanan]

I see your Octavian, and give you King Joash and King Josiah; both young at the beginning of their rule. See Kings & Chronicles for details.

P.S. At work, so not many ref available, and cannot discuss biblical topics at length. Thanks!

Modifié par Elhanan, 05 janvier 2011 - 11:15 .

[Bad King]

BHRamsay wrote...

Also the True Grey Warden path through the game is Bhelen with the Anvil intact.

That is an interesting take on fifty plus hours of gameplay ... At the risk of turning this in one of THOSE threads, I'm dying to hear how leaving the anvil intact and I assume Branka alive to use it, is in any way a good move. The woman is clearly delusional and leaving her the anvil insures she will be a nagging and dangerous threat not just to Bhelan's rule but the ENTIRE surface world as well. :-)

Branka will die eventually, then the dwarves can reclaim the anvil, transform the legion of the dead into golems and seize back the deeproads from the weakened Darkspawn and hunt down and kill (or capture) the remaining dormant Old Gods thus preventing future blights.

...But it probably wouldn't be that simple.

Modifié par Bad King, 16 janvier 2011 - 05:37 .

[Graspiloot]

Elhanan wrote...

I see your Octavian, and give you King Joash and King Josiah; both young at the beginning of their rule. See Kings & Chronicles for details.

P.S. At work, so not many ref available, and cannot discuss biblical topics at length. Thanks!

Biblical sources are questionable at best....

Especially if they try to portray someone as being such a great king and still doing what it necessary...

Thumbs down for bringing up bible as a historical source.

Edit: Oh now I see it was a long time ago this thread, I just saw that it was revived...

Modifié par Graspiloot, 16 janvier 2011 - 10:43 .

[BlazingSpeed]

I read through the first few pages trying to find out the best opportunity to double cross Harrowmont back when I played that point in the game there was a game breaking bug that wouldn't let you continue with either side.



So when is the best point to double cross Harrowmont or Bhelen?



Thanks in advance,

[Urazz]

Truth be told, I think Bhelen being a dictator was probably more towards the other castes than the castless.



Personally, without metagaming, I picked Bhelen as I figured if he even gets half of his proposed changes through, he would dramatically improve the situation of the dwarves. He may be a ruthless evil bad guy but sometimes I think it sometimes takes being a bad guy to move things along towards the greater good, especially since the nobles were busy being greedy and corrupt and not really working towards improving the situation of their people. Harrowmont may be a good guy in general but has spent his life in the assembly and will focus more on satisfying the assembly than getting anything done.



Anyways, pretty much always pick Bhelen, but I don't just blindly go along with him. For instance, I take the papers Vartag give me in the beginning of the noble chain to the shaperate and have the papers verified as false but don't rat out Bhelen and go along with it after talking to Vartag again. I then usually play both sides and then pick Bhelen at the end.



On choosing Caradin or Branka, I generally choose Caradin as Branka at this point seems to have went crazy and I wouldn't trust her with the forge.

[Sarah1281]

BlazingSpeed wrote...

I read through the first few pages trying to find out the best opportunity to double cross Harrowmont back when I played that point in the game there was a game breaking bug that wouldn't let you continue with either side.

So when is the best point to double cross Harrowmont or Bhelen?

Thanks in advance,

There are two ways that I've found work for betraying Harrowmont (or Bhelen for that matter). The first is to do the first task for the person you're pretending to support. Then go to the second of the person you really want to support and convince them that you're only pretending to support the other guy. They'll give you a loyalty test (plant documents incriminating Harrowmont's cousin for being involved in the carta and finding proof that Bhelen had Trian killed - unless you're playing a DN who did it yourself in which the papers say he hired the mercenaries to kill you - respectively) and you can meet with the person you really want to support. Now, both Vartag and Dulin send you to kill the carta anyway and then Bhelen and Harrowmont send you after Branka so the tasks stay the same. The second way to betray one of them is to simply hand the crown over to the guy you're not supporting when you get to the decision point.

[mousestalker]

If you do the latter, Bhelen's reaction either way is priceless. I'm especially fond of how he reacts when you choose him over Harrowmount at the very end.

[Elhanan]

Graspiloot wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

I see your Octavian, and give you King Joash and King Josiah; both young at the beginning of their rule. See Kings & Chronicles for details.

P.S. At work, so not many ref available, and cannot discuss biblical topics at length. Thanks!

Biblical sources are questionable at best....

Especially if they try to portray someone as being such a great king and still doing what it necessary...

Thumbs down for bringing up bible as a historical source.

Edit: Oh now I see it was a long time ago this thread, I just saw that it was revived...

So you discount the Bible as a viable historical source because it is also topical? This may be proven as rather unwise, for like critics also once held that Babylon, Jericho etc; other places and characters were ficticious, but then were rediscovered later leaving said critics dining on crow. I am far from an expert of archeology or history,  but find it somewhat amusing that some who doubt the historical veracity of the Bible also loved Indiana Jones III; final scenes set in the digs of Petra and Edom, I believe.

Now back to your regular programming....

Being able to double-cross either candidate is quite entertaining. Masters of the Game; indeed!

[Sarah1281]

This may be proven as rather unwise, for like critics also once held that Babylon, Jericho etc; other places and characters were ficticious, but then were rediscovered later leaving said critics dining on crow.

Because these places existed does not mean that everything the Bible says about them is literal and accurate historical fact. The figures you cite may exist but does that mean that the were exactly as portrayed? That's rather debatable and it would be better if you used examples that no one could question the historical accuracy of.

[Elhanan]

There will always be critics and those that doubt the historical veracity. As I am not allowed to discuss this topic here, I shall pass on any such debate.

But I do doubt Bhelen is a good choice as King; argue away!

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

But I do doubt Bhelen is a good choice as King; argue away!

You argue that Bhelen, who we know from the people in Orzammar wants to retake the lost thaigs, improve trade with the surface, and give the casteless more freedoms, wouldn't be a good choice for King? He's certainly better than the alternative canidate who has bigoted ideas about the casteless and absolutely no goal to help Orzammar improve as a society.

Urazz wrote...

On choosing Caradin or Branka, I generally choose Caradin as Branka at this point seems to have went crazy and I wouldn't trust her with the forge.

I made the same decision. I could see how the pragmatic decision would be to spare the Anvil because stopping the Blight is the top priority of the Wardens, but given that we can only entrust that to Branka (who is clearly unstable) is obviously going to be more trouble than it's worth.