240 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You argue that Bhelen, who we know from the people in Orzammar wants to retake the lost thaigs, improve trade with the surface, and give the casteless more freedoms, wouldn't be a good choice for King? He's certainly better than the alternative canidate who has bigoted ideas about the casteless and absolutely no goal to help Orzammar improve as a society....

At a cost in blood and morality that I deem too high. The Casteless will gain status in time; no need to sacrifice family to get it for them.

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

At a cost in blood and morality that I deem too high. The Casteless will gain status in time; no need to sacrifice family to get it for them.

So your alternative is to do nothing? It's been generations since the dwarves had a caste system, since the time the Tevinter Imperium reached its iron grip across Thedas. The casteless have had no freedom since then, and the only person willing to change that is Bhelen. Why side with a bigoted fool like Harrowmont who will only capitulate to the Assembly when I can choose a leader who will make the necessary changes to save Orzammar? And as for blood, I know how things go when Harrowmont is King and the Anvil is spared - your incessant mention of two brothers being lost because of Bhelen's tactics also ignores the lost lives of Dust Town who are killed because of Harrowmont's reign as King and his willingness to have golems murder innocent an entire town of men, women, and children, so I certainly see no reason to select him as King.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ah but Lobe, clearly you see that the manipulation and/or killing of your brothers are far worse than the wanton killing of an entire district, yes?

[Graspiloot]

Your morality is so contradictory: Oppressing a huge part of your people = good morals. Possibly killing your brother (depends on the DN) = bad morals.

???

[Elhanan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

So your alternative is to do nothing? It's been generations since the dwarves had a caste system, since the time the Tevinter Imperium reached its iron grip across Thedas. The casteless have had no freedom since then, and the only person willing to change that is Bhelen. Why side with a bigoted fool like Harrowmont who will only capitulate to the Assembly when I can choose a leader who will make the necessary changes to save Orzammar? And as for blood, I know how things go when Harrowmont is King and the Anvil is spared - your incessant mention of two brothers being lost because of Bhelen's tactics also ignores the lost lives of Dust Town who are killed because of Harrowmont's reign as King and his willingness to have golems murder innocent an entire town of men, women, and children, so I certainly see no reason to select him as King.

I have plans on making changes myself, and only have meta-gaming knowledge that Harrowmont chooses not to do so. Being prejudgemental does seem to be almost everyones problem, including the Casteless; not just Harrowmont. 

I also know Bhelen is a murderous Nug, and has ties to the Carta which has been draining the entire economy, as well as the blood from all, including the Casteless. Add in his link to corruption and deceipt with Gavorn, and I have no problem jumping from the Aeducan bandwagon.

As for choosing to save the Anvil, this helps me to indicate that making the ethical choice DOES make a difference.

[Sarah1281]

I have plans on making changes myself, and only have meta-gaming knowledge that Harrowmont chooses not to do so. Being prejudgemental does seem to be almost everyones problem, including the Casteless; not just Harrowmont.

So you really don't think that you can tell in-game that Harrowmont doesn't care about the casteless? Not even when he presents himself as the voice of tradition and asking around and the shaperate and at Dust Town shows you that tradition sas that hte casteless don't even exist? Or the fact that no matter what Harrowmont thought of them, the Assembly clearly doesn't care and (you can find a codex saying that they purposely make Dust Town so horrible to convince them to join the Legion) and Harrowmont tells you that he intends to put even the decision about troops before the Blight, has no interest in being a strong king, and believes that the Assembly should make all decisions? It's not metagaming when you pay attention to things that are actually in the game but that, to be fair, your characters might have missed.

I also know Bhelen is a murderous Nug, and has ties to the Carta which has been draining the entire economy, as well as the blood from all, including the Casteless.

So the fact that Bhelen used them once that we know of to get rid of his siblings means that he's to blame for them 'draining the economy' and all the blood that they shed? That's like saying that if you oever hired a mercenary you were suddenly responsible for everything they've ever done as well and makes no sense. If Bhelen hadn't have hired them for that, they'd still be right where they are during the game. And yes, they do get a bit carried away during the game and threaten people in the streets but until the king died they were hardly hurting the economy at all and were expected to be much more discrete.

As for choosing to save the Anvil, this helps me to indicate that making the ethical choice DOES make a difference.

That's not about ethics. That's about the fact that Branka is insane. Even if you could make golems without having to use a living creature, I still wouldn't be comfortable with the idea of Branka being the one to make them and to have control over them.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So you really don't think that you can tell in-game that Harrowmont doesn't care about the casteless? Not even when he presents himself as the voice of tradition and asking around and the shaperate and at Dust Town shows you that tradition sas that hte casteless don't even exist? Or the fact that no matter what Harrowmont thought of them, the Assembly clearly doesn't care and (you can find a codex saying that they purposely make Dust Town so horrible to convince them to join the Legion) and Harrowmont tells you that he intends to put even the decision about troops before the Blight, has no interest in being a strong king, and believes that the Assembly should make all decisions? It's not metagaming when you pay attention to things that are actually in the game but that, to be fair, your characters might have missed.

Sure I can, as I mentioned. Just that he ain't the only one in Orzammar that sees the Casteless as criminal; tis the majority POV including many of the Casteless themselves. However. I do not forsee that he would not see a use for them at all, esp if the Warden is a DC.

What I do note is that Bhelen ain't the droid I am looking for as a King.

So the fact that Bhelen used them once that we know of to get rid of his siblings means that he's to blame for them 'draining the economy' and all the blood that they shed? That's like saying that if you oever hired a mercenary you were suddenly responsible for everything they've ever done as well and makes no sense. If Bhelen hadn't have hired them for that, they'd still be right where they are during the game. And yes, they do get a bit carried away during the game and threaten people in the streets but until the king died they were hardly hurting the economy at all and were expected to be much more discrete.

No economist, but the blackmarket notion seems to hurt the economy as a rule. But there is more evidence presented that he is lower than a snakes belly in a wagon rut (including matching ethics) than he will ever manage to do anything except serve himself.

That's not about ethics. That's about the fact that Branka is insane. Even if you could make golems without having to use a living creature, I still wouldn't be comfortable with the idea of Branka being the one to make them and to have control over them.

Agreed that she is out of her skull; disagree that saving her and the Anvil ain't an ethical choice.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...



Ah but Lobe, clearly you see that the manipulation and/or killing of your brothers are far worse than the wanton killing of an entire district, yes?

How could I have missed it?

Elhanan wrote...

I have plans on making changes myself, and only have meta-gaming knowledge that Harrowmont chooses not to do so. Being prejudgemental does seem to be almost everyones problem, including the Casteless; not just Harrowmont.

I disagree. The guard at the Deep Roads mentions Bhelen's plans to retake the lost thaigs, the criers both mention Bhelen's support for the casteless, and the merchant near Dust Town mentions Bhelen's plans to improve trade with the surface. Given Harrowmont's inclination toward supporting tradition, it doesn't take much to see that Harrowmont's going to support it, especially since his support attacks Bhelen for his relationship with Rica and his intentions to improve the lot of the casteless.

Elhanan wrote...



I also know Bhelen is a murderous Nug, and has ties to the Carta which has been draining the entire economy, as well as the blood from all, including the Casteless. Add in his link to corruption and deceipt with Gavorn, and I have no problem jumping from the Aeducan bandwagon.

By murderous Nug, you mean he'd be willing to use golems to murder innocent men, women, and children in Dust Town to keep his bigoted policies intact? Oh wait... that's Harrowmont.

Elhanan wrote...



As for choosing to save the Anvil, this helps me to indicate that making the ethical choice DOES make a difference.

It doesn't take ethnics not to side with a mentally unhinged woman who wants the power to make virtually impenetrable soldiers.

Elhanan wrote...



Sure I can, as I mentioned. Just that he ain't the only one in Orzammar that sees the Casteless as criminal; tis the majority POV including many of the Casteless themselves. However. I do not forsee that he would not see a use for them at all, esp if the Warden is a DC.

Which is why people try to assassinate Bhelen when he gives the casteless more freedoms as the new King, and why he shuts down the Assembly as a result. Harrowmont, on the other hand, keeps the casteless without rights, and even moreso if he has golems at his command. It's the reason why Harrowmont murders the people of Dust Town with his golems.

Elhanan wrote...



No economist, but the blackmarket notion seems to hurt the economy as a rule. But there is more evidence presented that he is lower than a snakes belly in a wagon rut (including matching ethics) than he will ever manage to do anything except serve himself.

You mean the casteless resorting to crime as a means to survive in an economy that openly distains them and prevents them from having basic rights is hurting Orzammar? Maybe that means that someone in charge should change the traditions of the dwarven kingdom to give the casteless more rights - and it seems the canidate willing to do that is Bhelen.

[Giggles_Manically]

Haha.



Someone seems to be fulfilling the Honor before Reason trope.

[Elhanan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ah but Lobe, clearly you see that the manipulation and/or killing of your brothers are far worse than the wanton killing of an entire district, yes?

How could I have missed it?

You could have chosen not to save the Anvil, kill Branka the Loon, helped Caradin. But you are too busy helping murderers.....

I disagree. The guard at the Deep Roads mentions Bhelen's plans to retake the lost thaigs, the criers both mention Bhelen's support for the casteless, and the merchant near Dust Town mentions Bhelen's plans to improve trade with the surface. Given Harrowmont's inclination toward supporting tradition, it doesn't take much to see that Harrowmont's going to support it, especially since his support attacks Bhelen for his relationship with Rica and his intentions to improve the lot of the casteless.

While this good be good intel, it is only gossip, rumor, and possible campaign reteric. OTOH, we have hard evidence on Bhelen. But it is good to know that you do like to listen to others, though you seem to be among those that pick & choose what to hear.

By murderous Nug, you mean he'd be willing to use golems to murder innocent men, women, and children in Dust Town to keep his bigoted policies intact? Oh wait... that's Harrowmont.

Or tis you that decides to choose the Anvil. I still ain't seen this one in play. Oh wait... I am trying to make ethical choices.

It doesn't take ethnics not to side with a mentally unhinged woman who wants the power to make virtually impenetrable soldiers.

Maybe;maybe not, but it may take ethics to help Caradin though with no proof of reward.

Which is why people try to assassinate Bhelen when he gives the casteless more freedoms as the new King, and why he shuts down the Assembly as a result. Harrowmont, on the other hand, keeps the casteless without rights, and even moreso if he has golems at his command. It's the reason why Harrowmont murders the people of Dust Town with his golems.

So civil war, unrest, etc is fine as long as it is your sde doing the killing? Got it! As for me, I am wanting a more peaceful reform.

You mean the casteless resorting to crime as a means to survive in an economy that openly distains them and prevents them from having basic rights is hurting Orzammar? Maybe that means that someone in charge should change the traditions of the dwarven kingdom to give the casteless more rights - and it seems the canidate willing to do that is Bhelen.

Not all the Casteless are brigands, thugs, and paid killers, but the Carta is. Y'know; Bhelens bff's. His paid scavengers, killers, and economical partners.

Modifié par Elhanan, 17 janvier 2011 - 08:07 .

[Sarah1281]

You could have chosen not to save the Anvil, kill Branka the Loon, helped Caradin. But you are too busy helping murderers.....

What? How does 'I feel that the fact that Harrowmont when he has the power to enforce his will chooses to decimate Dust Town is worse than Bhelen killing his siblings' equal what you said? In fact, the not saving the Anvil in this case involves NOT helping murderers...unless you're calling Harrowmont a murderer.

Or tis you that decides to choose the Anvil. I still ain't seen this one in play. Oh wait... I am trying to make ethical choices.

Yes, you can and clearly have done an ending where Harrowmont gets nothing done. Trying to call him the ethical choice when (with meta-gaming) we know that the minute he has the power to do so, he does far worse than anything Bhelen does in-game is just absurd. Just because you don't give Harrowmont the power to do this evil act doesn't mean that he is too ethical to do it or wouldn't if he could.

Maybe;maybe not, but it may take ethics to help Caradin though with no proof of reward.

Of course there's proof of reward. Killing Branka won't destroy the Anvil. You need a Paragon's crown. Caridin cannot destroy the Anvil but he can make the crown. If you don't get that crown, you won't destroy the Anvil. (I don't remember if game mechanics have you destroying the Anvil before you get the crown but non-game mechanics-wise you could have him make the crown first).

So civil war, unrest, etc is fine as long as it is your sde doing the killing? Got it! As for me, I am wanting a more peaceful reform.

...What? We have no indication of civil war under Bhelen. These assassination attempts are probably going to be quiet things or ambushes when Bhelen is alone but they don't mean that the city is at war with itself. And I REALLY don't understand why you say this in response to this charge that Harrowmont has his golems kill the people of Dust Town. Your side, in that case, would be Harrowmont. So what are you saying? It's not Bhelen doing the killing, remember, it's Harrowmont. You may want peaceful reform but if Harrowmont has any real power he'll lead to violent killings.

Not all the Casteless are brigands, thugs, and paid killers, but the Carta is. Y'know; Bhelens bff's. His paid scavengers, killers, and economical partners.

Yeah, we know. Some of the casteless are beggars and the others are glorified ****s. Of course, if a casteless were to get a job at, say, Tapsters then that would make him a criminal because he's not legally allowed to hold a job. And can you please stop insisting that there is a strong and permanent link between Bhelen and the carta? You only have proof that he used them in regards to getting rid of his siblings. If you don't want people to bring up any possible immoral deed Harrowmont might have committed to attain his position because we have no proof of it then please stop trying to tie Bhelen to the carta any more than the game does.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Haha.

Someone seems to be fulfilling the Honor before Reason trope.

It's a mix of both amusing and annoying at the same time.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Haha.

Someone seems to be fulfilling the Honor before Reason trope.

It's a mix of both amusing and annoying at the same time.

Amusing: LALALALALALALALA! I AM NOT LISTENING ABOUT HARROWMONT BEING AN EPIC FAIL!
Annoying: LOLZ Bhelen ist evil for doing exactly whats all teh other nobles do!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Haha.

Someone seems to be fulfilling the Honor before Reason trope.

It's a mix of both amusing and annoying at the same time.

Amusing: LALALALALALALALA! I AM NOT LISTENING ABOUT HARROWMONT BEING AN EPIC FAIL!
Annoying: LOLZ Bhelen ist evil for doing exactly whats all teh other nobles do!

To be fair, someone did admit that he doesn't care about history and in otherwords reality. 
So now I know not to waste my time.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

What? How does 'I feel that the fact that Harrowmont when he has the power to enforce his will chooses to decimate Dust Town is worse than Bhelen killing his siblings' equal what you said? In fact, the not saving the Anvil in this case involves NOT helping murderers...unless you're calling Harrowmont a murderer.

Not saving the Anil for me is in helping Caradin, and preventing slavery; not with the epilogues. Thus I have yet to choose to save it for Harrowmont as I am attempting to make morale/ethical choices. I have saved it once for Bhelen, but that Warden was making choices based on greed, avarice, and power. Like Bhelen. 

Yes, you can and clearly have done an ending where Harrowmont gets nothing done. Trying to call him the ethical choice when (with meta-gaming) we know that the minute he has the power to do so, he does far worse than anything Bhelen does in-game is just absurd. Just because you don't give Harrowmont the power to do this evil act doesn't mean that he is too ethical to do it or wouldn't if he could.

Harrowmont is indeed flawed, but Bhelen is far worse, IMO.

Of course there's proof of reward. Killing Branka won't destroy the Anvil. You need a Paragon's crown. Caridin cannot destroy the Anvil but he can make the crown. If you don't get that crown, you won't destroy the Anvil. (I don't remember if game mechanics have you destroying the Anvil before you get the crown but non-game mechanics-wise you could have him make the crown first).

As Shale speaks of it, gaining the crown was never guaranteed; surviving wasn't either. Personally, I like the entire voluntary notion, but as DAO history depicts, that can be undone too easily.

...What? We have no indication of civil war under Bhelen. These assassination attempts are probably going to be quiet things or ambushes when Bhelen is alone but they don't mean that the city is at war with itself. And I REALLY don't understand why you say this in response to this charge that Harrowmont has his golems kill the people of Dust Town. Your side, in that case, would be Harrowmont. So what are you saying? It's not Bhelen doing the killing, remember, it's Harrowmont. You may want peaceful reform but if Harrowmont has any real power he'll lead to violent killings.

House vs House seems pretty much like civil unrest; add plurality and you may have a war. Bhelen is out for Bhelen, and will do anything to obtain what he desires.

Harrowmont ends his reign thwarted in any real progress... thanks to Bhelen supporters. After this; my turn.

Yeah, we know. Some of the casteless are beggars and the others are glorified ****s. Of course, if a casteless were to get a job at, say, Tapsters then that would make him a criminal because he's not legally allowed to hold a job. And can you please stop insisting that there is a strong and permanent link between Bhelen and the carta? You only have proof that he used them in regards to getting rid of his siblings. If you don't want people to bring up any possible immoral deed Harrowmont might have committed to attain his position because we have no proof of it then please stop trying to tie Bhelen to the carta any more than the game does.

While Bhelen's murderous dealings could have been his first, I would bet against it. And the Casteless are in a sorry state; no doubt esp when you play a DC Warden. But in my play, I hold out for a better solution than what the game offers; call it my version of the Kobayashi Maru.

[Giggles_Manically]

cough. MARY SUE. COUGH

[Elhanan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

cough. MARY SUE. COUGH

So you like to play RPG's just for what is offered graphically? Fine with me; prefer using imagination to improve the experience.

For example: Mission Impossible the movie kinda made Jim Phelps out to be somewhat like Bhelen. This seemed to irritate some fans; enough so that a few walked out of the film. For me, Jim Phelps was simply a name attached to the current 'head of team', so this was not the same man as played by Peter Graves. Result? I am fairly content; not as seemingly frustrated as some in these forums appear to be.

And Harrowmont for the win to keep it OT.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
And Harrowmont for the win to keep it OT.

Oh the irony.

[Sarah1281]

So you like to play RPG's just for what is offered graphically? Fine with me; prefer using imagination to improve the experience.

The problem is that it often seems like you're ignoring the context and the lore and just assuming that you can make everything perfect. You may as well pick Bhelen, assassinate him easily and with no consequences the minute you're named Paragon, and become king then.

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

You could have chosen not to save the Anvil, kill Branka the Loon, helped Caradin. But you are too busy helping murderers.....

I don't help Branka, primarily because she is insane. I thought I made that clear when I said that she is mentally unstable. It's fundamentally sane to realize that she can't be trusted to make golems. My Warden wasn't stupid enough to trust someone as clearly unbalanced as Branka with such power, despite the overwhelming threat the Blight posed to all of Thedas.

Elhanan wrote...

While this good be good intel, it is only gossip, rumor, and possible campaign reteric. OTOH, we have hard evidence on Bhelen. But it is good to know that you do like to listen to others, though you seem to be among those that pick & choose what to hear.

As an elven mage, I had no hard evidence on anyone. I was an outsider, and everything I did was entirely based on the intel I gathered. I didn't pick and choose - I gathered all the information and made a choice to improve Orzammar for the dwarves, especially the casteless. The intel tells me that Bhelen's going to help the casteless, retake the lost thaigs, and improve trade with the surface. Since both Harrowmont's crier and Bhelen's crier confirm that Harrowmont has no plans to help the casteless, I know that he's a traditionalist. The lack of any actual plan to do anything to aid Orzammar is why my elven Warden chooses to elect Bhelen to the throne.

Elhanan wrote...

Or tis you that decides to choose the Anvil. I still ain't seen this one in play. Oh wait... I am trying to make ethical choices.

Again, I don't choose to save the Anvil, but it shows what Harrowmont is capable of. He has no qualms murdering innocent people. Considering that fact, I don't see how Bhelen is so much worse. If you've played the DN Origin, it's clear that Bhelen's actions are exactly how every other dwarven noble operates. Harrowmont's willingness to kill virtually everyone in Dust Town (if he has the golems) proves he's no different.

Elhanan wrote...

Maybe;maybe not, but it may take ethics to help Caradin though with no proof of reward.

It's another debate regarding how many lives the Anvil could save if used properly (as in, being used by someone who is sane and doesn't hear voices in her head), but it's utterly pointless because Branka is the only person who can be trusted with it, and my Warden simply isn't foolish enough to trust her with the Anvil.

Elhanan wrote...

So civil war, unrest, etc is fine as long as it is your sde doing the killing? Got it! As for me, I am wanting a more peaceful reform.

There's no civil war with Bhelen. There's the clear implication with Harrowmont that civil war is inevitable because people are going to fight for the throne because of the power vacuum left in his wake. With Bhelen, the casteless are given freedom, Orzammar retakes many lost thaigs, and trade with the surface is increased. The only person who brings reform is Bhelen.

Elhanan wrote...

Not all the Casteless are brigands, thugs, and paid killers, but the Carta is. Y'know; Bhelens bff's. His paid scavengers, killers, and economical partners.

And he's no different than every other dwarven noble who makes such deals, as the DN Origin makes perfectly clear in the V.O. The fact that he saves Orzammar only confirms that my Warden made the right choice.

[ejoslin]

It just gets annoying when someone argues for a point of view that has absolutely no, as in zero, game lore evidence of being even possible, yet sticks tenaciously to that argument, ignoring every piece of game lore AND epilogue as they don't support their point of view.



which is why I am staying out of this. When the argument turns to, "I'm making this up, and so it is CORRECT," it's completely unwinnable, despite all the in-game evidence to the contrary. In fact, the in-game evidence is completely irrelevant to someone who will dismiss it for their own version.

[Sarah1281]

House vs House seems pretty much like civil unrest; add plurality and you may have a war. Bhelen is out for Bhelen, and will do anything to obtain what he desires.



Harrowmont ends his reign thwarted in any real progress... thanks to Bhelen supporters. After this; my turn.

So the House vs House with Bhelen's supporters fighting Harrowmont's supporters and nothing getting done is fine but the mniute a few Houses don't like Bhelen it's a civil war waiting to happen? Houses ALWAYS oppose each other in Orzammar. No matter who you pick as king, the night you get the DR offer if you talk to the dwarven commander you hear about how a feud between two houses flared up again so they didn't send troops. House vs House is the norm in Orzammar. Bhelen having his own personal enemies versus people who just wanted him out of the way because he was an Aeducan is not a civil war.



And good luck getting anything done if you won't use Bhelen's methods given that the Assembly is so divided that they won't even vote for strictly self-interest laws. If you can't get them to vote to give themselves more power, how are they going to vote for things like helping others?

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The problem is that it often seems like you're ignoring the context and the lore and just assuming that you can make everything perfect. You may as well pick Bhelen, assassinate him easily and with no consequences the minute you're named Paragon, and become king then.

I already have, with one Warden: the DC that appoints Rica as Queen Mother to little King Enderin, and chose Harrowmont to lead the Dwarven armies against Archie. In this one, neither reign very long at all.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The problem is that it often seems like you're ignoring the context and the lore and just assuming that you can make everything perfect. You may as well pick Bhelen, assassinate him easily and with no consequences the minute you're named Paragon, and become king then.

I already have, with one Warden: the DC that appoints Rica as Queen Mother to little King Enderin, and chose Harrowmont to lead the Dwarven armies against Archie. In this one, neither reign very long at all.

Yeah, that would not happen. At all. It can't happen and it goes against every bit of established lore there is. You can feel free to make up whatever the hell ridiculous ideal scenario you want to but you can't really pass it off as a realistic future.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So you like to play RPG's just for what is offered graphically? Fine with me; prefer using imagination to improve the experience.

The problem is that it often seems like you're ignoring the context and the lore and just assuming that you can make everything perfect. You may as well pick Bhelen, assassinate him easily and with no consequences the minute you're named Paragon, and become king then.

Even if he could do all this, what does this have to do with Harrowmont being a better ruler than Bhelen? He's indeed betting on that imbecile getting himself killed.

It's clear and anyone with sufficient sense can see that Bhelen is a much better ruler, with metagaming evidence and material facts. I will concede that it's not too obvious in-game (still not hard to see).