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[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

Not saving the Anil for me is in helping Caradin, and preventing slavery; not with the epilogues. Thus I have yet to choose to save it for Harrowmont as I am attempting to make morale/ethical choices. I have saved it once for Bhelen, but that Warden was making choices based on greed, avarice, and power. Like Bhelen. 

And Bhelen's choices give freedom to the casteless, so I don't see the issue here. Harrowmont is a traditionalist, and keeps the casteless without rights. How is that, by any measure, ethical or moral? How is keeping the casteless in a life of poverty and forcing them to prostitute themselves to men and criminals the act of an honorable person?

Elhanan wrote...

Harrowmont is indeed flawed, but Bhelen is far worse, IMO.

Except for the casteless, who Bhelen helps and who Harrowmont is willing to murder.

Elhanan wrote...

As Shale speaks of it, gaining the crown was never guaranteed; surviving wasn't either. Personally, I like the entire voluntary notion, but as DAO history depicts, that can be undone too easily.

Shale is a great character. I hope she was able to get what she wanted in Tevinter. I'd assume that Wynne's presence in Amaranthine means that she did.

Elhanan wrote...

House vs House seems pretty much like civil unrest; add plurality and you may have a war. Bhelen is out for Bhelen, and will do anything to obtain what he desires.

And that's what happens when Harrowmont dies - House vs. House for the throne. As you say, a civil war. Why would anyone want to side with Harrowmont when he brings civil war to Orzammar?

Elhanan wrote...

Harrowmont ends his reign thwarted in any real progress... thanks to Bhelen supporters. After this; my turn.

Except the other members of the Assembly likely have their own choices, and some probably want the throne. You aren't the Archdemon, and they aren't darkpsawn - they aren't going to obey your every word at a whim. If you're not able to even get some consensus here, how do you expect to be King or make any progressive changes in the cut-throat political landscape of Orzammar?

Elhanan wrote...

While Bhelen's murderous dealings could have been his first, I would bet against it. And the Casteless are in a sorry state; no doubt esp when you play a DC Warden. But in my play, I hold out for a better solution than what the game offers; call it my version of the Kobayashi Maru.

As much as I would love to liberate mages across Thedas and give the elves a homeland, I try to limit my actions to what's realistic by the standards of the story provided. I ask for a boon that I know isn't going to happen, but I like to think it'll matter in the longer run. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's a shot in the dark. I don't pretend that everyone will fall in line and act OOC because I'm suddenly the Hero of Ferelden. You've provided no reason why the Assembly would elect you or why they would elect your measures when they try to assassinate Bhelen for his controversial changes for the casteless.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Harrowmont is indeed flawed, but Bhelen is far worse, IMO.

Except for the casteless, who Bhelen helps and who Harrowmont is willing to murder.

Not only the casteless. But the merchants and all the other castes (because the loosened caste restrictions apply to all).

The only "victims" are nobles who are represented in the Assembly (and that's assuming that Bhelen didn't coopt some if not most of them before disolving the joke). And that's the least that could happen to them, considerign everything they've done (or not done rather).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 janvier 2011 - 10:16 .

[Elhanan]

It ain't a realistic future; tis Fantasy. Like expecting some on these forums to keep it civil.



Bhelen for the new urn of Ashes.

[ejoslin]

If someone were arguing that Alistair would marry her half elf/half dwarf mage and make her queen, I'd have the exact same reaction. Can't happen in this universe, and arguing it is silly. You can mod your game, write your fanfic, and change things as you want, but to discuss a story while making up all new things... it's irritating, even though it's fiction.



This is a story that has lore and actual paths the endings follow.



However, since i'm not a complete ass, I am offering to make a new epilogue card JUST for whomever wants one, so you can take a screenshot of it and post it as evidence to what you want to happen DOES happen. *grin* This has happened before on these boards, after all.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

It ain't a realistic future; tis Fantasy. Like expecting some on these forums to keep it civil.

Bhelen for the new urn of Ashes.

By 'realistic' we don't mean 'could happen in the everyday Earth that we live in.' Rather, we mean 'could happen in the world of Dragon Age.' It is not realistic for there to be elves and dwarves at all in our world. It is in the DA world but it's not realistic for you to be able to singlehandedly fix all of their problems.

[ejoslin]

 

And everyone lived happily ever after!


Edit: Well, at least I amused myself

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 janvier 2011 - 10:54 .

[Giggles_Manically]

OH GOD!



That is win Ejoslin pure win!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ejoslin, I love you.

[Giggles_Manically]

Bhelen approves +10.





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[LobselVith8]

ejoslin wrote...

 

And everyone lived happily ever after!


Edit: Well, at least I amused myself

'Twas awesome indeed!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Bhelen really approves

[Giggles_Manically]

Even picard approves:

[ejoslin]

Bhelen AND Picard~!

This whole thread is awesome!

Modifié par ejoslin, 17 janvier 2011 - 11:20 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

It's simple really.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ejoslin wrote...

 

And everyone lived happily ever after!


Edit: Well, at least I amused myself

LMAO! I need this one for my DN to make it a little less painful seeing the Harrowmont slides!

[BigBad]

*cracks up*



Funniest thing I've seen since the Slap Morrigan mod.

[Elhanan]

ejoslin wrote...

If someone were arguing that Alistair would marry her half elf/half dwarf mage and make her queen, I'd have the exact same reaction. Can't happen in this universe, and arguing it is silly. You can mod your game, write your fanfic, and change things as you want, but to discuss a story while making up all new things... it's irritating, even though it's fiction.

This is a story that has lore and actual paths the endings follow.

However, since i'm not a complete ass, I am offering to make a new epilogue card JUST for whomever wants one, so you can take a screenshot of it and post it as evidence to what you want to happen DOES happen. *grin* This has happened before on these boards, after all.

Again you are incorrect; you are indeed complete. So glad you could amuse so many at the expense of another. *applesause*

As for Harrowmont, he still remains the better choice for Orzammar with Bhelen lying dead at his feet;could not even whip an old Traditionalist *tsk;tsk*

[ejoslin]

Elhanan wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

If someone were arguing that Alistair would marry her half elf/half dwarf mage and make her queen, I'd have the exact same reaction. Can't happen in this universe, and arguing it is silly. You can mod your game, write your fanfic, and change things as you want, but to discuss a story while making up all new things... it's irritating, even though it's fiction.

This is a story that has lore and actual paths the endings follow.

However, since i'm not a complete ass, I am offering to make a new epilogue card JUST for whomever wants one, so you can take a screenshot of it and post it as evidence to what you want to happen DOES happen. *grin* This has happened before on these boards, after all.

Again you are incorrect; you are indeed complete. So glad you could amuse so many at the expense of another. *applesause*

As for Harrowmont, he still remains the better choice for Orzammar with Bhelen lying dead at his feet;could not even whip an old Traditionalist *tsk;tsk*

Awwwww, I thought I was being funny, not hurtful.  I really was under the impression that you were taking none of this seriously and so you would not be offended.  I was wrong, and so I apologize. 

Peace!

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 janvier 2011 - 03:57 .

[Joy Divison]

ejoslin wrote...

 

And everyone lived happily ever after!


Edit: Well, at least I amused myself

Fairy Tale ending FTW!

Modifié par Joy Divison, 18 janvier 2011 - 06:10 .

[Graspiloot]

I have stayed out of this topic for the reasons mentioned above (no point in discussing with someone who makes up his own perfect ending).

But had to come in and give a thumbs up for Ejoslin! Although it was very very hurtful It's not what an ethical person would do...

Modifié par Graspiloot, 18 janvier 2011 - 10:51 .

[Raonar]

I''ll just drop in and say that there actually IS proof Bhelen was involved with the carta for a while (sort of). In the DC origin, when you walk in on Beraht and Jarvia talking (before the Everd quest) he and Jarvia talk about how the king will be dead soon and how 'Bhelen is more sympathetic to our interests than Trian'. Beraht then says Bhelen has some tastes of his own that he knows he can provide, in a tone that sounds like they'd already met/dealt with one another.

[Sarah1281]

I always assumed that that was talking about Rica. Or not her specifically since Beraht doesn't know she has a patron and wouldn't rape/kill the future king's NH but he knows that Bhelen's looking for someone.

[Raonar]

He doesn't know Rica is with Bhelen (it's obvious since Rica doesn't tell him and he genuinely doesn't seem to know in the opening origin dialog). Regardless, the fact remains that the connection is already there before the DN's first commission even comes around. So yes, Bhelen IS encouraging the carta.

[LobselVith8]

Raonar wrote...

He doesn't know Rica is with Bhelen (it's obvious since Rica doesn't tell him and he genuinely doesn't seem to know in the opening origin dialog). Regardless, the fact remains that the connection is already there before the DN's first commission even comes around. So yes, Bhelen IS encouraging the carta.

That's speculation, not proof. There are other ways to interpret those lines, and none of them would be definitive because the dwarven commoner is never privy to the entire conversation. Since the carta consists of the casteless, they could be referring to Bhelen's more open-minded ideas about them (as the epilogue reveals when he gives them more freedoms). It's difficult to say with any degree of certainty what they could be referring to because we're never explicitly told. As for Bhelen's "tastes," if there was a rumor that the last son of the King was seeing a casteless woman (Rica), then that's why Beraht would have said that line. Again, since it's basically the middle of a conversation we're never really privy to, it's impossible to say for certain.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Raonar wrote...

He doesn't know Rica is with Bhelen (it's obvious since Rica doesn't tell him and he genuinely doesn't seem to know in the opening origin dialog). Regardless, the fact remains that the connection is already there before the DN's first commission even comes around. So yes, Bhelen IS encouraging the carta.

Was. Obviously he had to maneuvre and making connections to the underground is the smart thing to do. That for me just shows the extent of his  savviness and knowledge of Dwarven politics and what happens behind the scenes. Do you think Bhelen is the only noble with connections to the Carta?

But he obviously turns against them. And I don't see him supporting another Carta in Dust Town once he becomes King, it would be contrary to his interests.