473 réponses à ce sujet

[Negix]

Dave of Canada wrote...

In Wrath of the Lich King, AOE was encouraged because things died too fast and doing anything else was considered worthless because it would just take longer on pulls in the end.

In Cataclysm, they changed it so AOE barely does anything and people who still keep using it on small trash enemy pulls are risking the entire group's health because the tank is being hit for longer periods of time and the healer's mana is draining ridiculously fast leading to an eventual wipe.

It's all about the tuning, AOE can be overpowered or underpowered with or without friendly fire.

(Note: People who are used to the Wrath of the Lich King system will blame the healer or tank for the wipe then leave the group while insulting your mother.)

i know it like this:
Random Guy: n00b tank i dont believe that11!!
Random Guy2: God that guy sux!!!11
tank: hey itz not my fault if the healer cant heal!!
Random Guy: exactly! healer u suck!!
Me (healer): guys... its not my fault if the tank feels like pulling everything that has a red name....
tank: dont change the topic!! u suck!!!

and suddenly i remember why i stopped playing this game when those random groups where introduced,,,,,

[Malanek]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

The removal of fiendly fire on all but nightmare sounds horrible. Means this game is meant to spam AOE spells and effects without concern for tactics and character placement. How can people not see this?

Play on a nightmare, suddenly you can't spam AOE spells anymore.

However has the game been designed for this? Say they put the Blizzard spell from Origins into DA2 but this time they balance it to ignore FF. Now straight off they realise that having your party run around inside the blizzard, not slipping over or getting hurt, hacking and slashing their way through chilled prone enemies with extreme ease is too powerful. So they water it down. They change it so it deals less damage and enemies have to make fewer and easier save rolls. And they get it more or less balanced. However now on insanity you have an extremely anaemic spell that is essentially useless.

Modifié par Malanek999, 31 décembre 2010 - 01:39 .

[upsettingshorts]

OT:  It's that much of a blanket thing in WoW with AoE? In Conan it depended wildly on the fight. Some demanded a lot of AoE to even have a chance (for anyone reading who knows: Seruah), and others punished careless use of AoE (Chatha).

Raid encounters in AoC frequently depended - the ones that were actually challenging anyway - on the skill of the tanks though.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 31 décembre 2010 - 01:45 .

[Tiax Rules All]

Malanek999 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

The removal of fiendly fire on all but nightmare sounds horrible. Means this game is meant to spam AOE spells and effects without concern for tactics and character placement. How can people not see this?

Play on a nightmare, suddenly you can't spam AOE spells anymore.

However has the game been designed for this? Say they put the Blizzard spell from Origins into DA2 but this time they balance it to ignore FF. Now straight off they realise that having your party run around inside the blizzard, not slipping over or getting hurt, hacking and slashing their way through chilled prone enemies with extreme ease is too powerful. So they water it down. They change it so it deals less damage and enemies have to make fewer and easier save rolls. And they get it more or less balanced. However now on insanity you have an extremely anaemic spell that is essentially useless.

I understand this, just dont agree with it.... *shrugs*   I'm in the "learn how to properly use powerful AOE spells" category not the "balance it for people who cant manage to learn catagory"

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 31 décembre 2010 - 01:44 .

[upsettingshorts]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

I understand this, just dont agree with it.... *shrugs*   I'm in the "learn how to properly use powerful AOE spells" category not the "balance it for people who cant manage to learn catagory"

Personally I'm going to play on Normal or Hard and then self-restrict my AoE to occasions when there are no friendlies in the blast zone.  It's not perfect, but it'll work for me.

[Malanek]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

The removal of fiendly fire on all but nightmare sounds horrible. Means this game is meant to spam AOE spells and effects without concern for tactics and character placement. How can people not see this?

Play on a nightmare, suddenly you can't spam AOE spells anymore.

However has the game been designed for this? Say they put the Blizzard spell from Origins into DA2 but this time they balance it to ignore FF. Now straight off they realise that having your party run around inside the blizzard, not slipping over or getting hurt, hacking and slashing their way through chilled prone enemies with extreme ease is too powerful. So they water it down. They change it so it deals less damage and enemies have to make fewer and easier save rolls. And they get it more or less balanced. However now on insanity you have an extremely anaemic spell that is essentially useless.

I understand this, just dont agree with it.... *shrugs*   I'm in the "learn how to properly use powerful AOE spells" category not the "balance it for people who cant manage to learn catagory"

I don't think you understood what I was saying. My overall point is that removing FF from the game removes one of the more tactical elements. Including it on the highest difficulty only may well end up being an unbalanced mess on that difficulty.

Modifié par Malanek999, 31 décembre 2010 - 01:57 .

[Dave of Canada]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's that much of a blanket thing in WoW with AoE? In Conan it depended wildly on the fight. Some demanded a lot of AoE to even have a chance (for anyone reading who knows: Seruah), and others punished careless use of AoE (Chatha).

Some fights have dozens of adds show up where you have to AOE them down quickly, the problem was that in Wrath of the Lich King anything that wasn't a boss fight (excluding a few boss fights) could be AOE'd down quite easily. Tanks would gather around twenty or so enemies, stand there for two seconds while mages would cast blizzard or something and kill all the enemies repeating the process without the healer's mana being touched.

This all happened because they overtuned AOE, undertuned dungeons, and gave us too much gear for the expansion pack. The Burning Crusade or Vanilla content in it's appropriate setting (abilities / gear / talents) would never allow this to work, where you need to coordinate and mark certain targets and let some enemies be locked down to not pose a threat to the group as a whole.

So while we played through Wrath of the Lich King, lots of players were used to this "OH HEY, AOE IS FUN! AOE IS EASY!" (you cast the spell, don't do anything for another 5 seconds then do it again) and tried to carry this over into Cataclysm where they wanted to return to their roots of difficult bosses, enemies the tank can't pull thousands of, healers going out of mana and DPS that needed to coordinate by focus firing and crowd controling the groups.

Now we've got the crowd who never did these things thinking they can do it again in Cataclysm, they often die because of it or kill the entire group for their foolish mistakes.

Tanks run around pulling more than what is a reasonable number of enemies, often getting themselves in a situation where no healer can keep them up.
Healers thinking that at half mana they are good for another pull but run out at the start and cause a wipe.
Damage never using abilities that can crowd control, not focus firing and just AOEing everything (including single target enemies).

The common group will fall apart at the first wipe because everybody will start blaming the other individual, saying they aren't doing their jobs right (when in actuality, it's their fault they didn't adapt to the new game).

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 décembre 2010 - 01:54 .

[Malanek]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

I understand this, just dont agree with it.... *shrugs*   I'm in the "learn how to properly use powerful AOE spells" category not the "balance it for people who cant manage to learn catagory"

Personally I'm going to play on Normal or Hard and then self-restrict my AoE to occasions when there are no friendlies in the blast zone.  It's not perfect, but it'll work for me.

If they have done their job right in terms of balancing it for no friendly fire, I suspect this won't be very satisfying.

[Tiax Rules All]

Malanek999 wrote...

I understand this, just dont agree with it.... *shrugs*   I'm in the "learn how to properly use powerful AOE spells" category not the "balance it for people who cant manage to learn catagory"

I don't think you understood what I was saying. My overall point is that removing FF from the game removes one of the more tactical elements. Including it on the highest difficulty only may well end up being an unbalanced mess

Oh well then I agree 110%

Modifié par Tiax Rules All, 31 décembre 2010 - 01:54 .

[Pwnsaur]

Hanz54321 wrote...
As the release date draws closer these forums are filling up with idiots and trolls. It's entertaining and disturbing at the same time.

I think all labels need to stop...

This OP was definitely not a troll or an idiot, he was just a guy with a legitimate concern.

I find the label troll is being utilized to marginalize and invalidate people to avoid addressing their issue. Let's just stop the namecalling, because THAT.... seems like a more obvious sign of 'trolling.'

[upsettingshorts]

Malanek999 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Personally I'm going to play on Normal or Hard and then self-restrict my AoE to occasions when there are no friendlies in the blast zone.  It's not perfect, but it'll work for me.

If they have done their job right in terms of balancing it for no friendly fire, I suspect this won't be very satisfying.

Well, then if it's unsatisfying because it's too easy - I'll turn up the difficulty to Nightmare.  If it's unsatisfying because it's too hard, I'll waive my house rule.

It's probably how I'm gonna start though.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 31 décembre 2010 - 02:07 .

[Malanek]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Personally I'm going to play on Normal or Hard and then self-restrict my AoE to occasions when there are no friendlies in the blast zone.  It's not perfect, but it'll work for me.

If they have done their job right in terms of balancing it for no friendly fire, I suspect this won't be very satisfying.

Well, then if it's unsatisfying because it's too easy - I'll turn up the difficulty to Nightmare.  If it's unsatisfying because it's too hard, I'll waive my house rule.

It's probably how I'm gonna start though.

Fair enough, we'll be able to see rather than speculate soon. Just on that, it wasn't really that I thought it would be too easy playing like that, rather I thought all your AOE effects would be heavily marginialised compared to your non-aoe effects because they are balanced for a use which you are artificially avoiding.

Also what were you planning for two-handed warriors, where as I understand it, everything is an aoe attack?

Modifié par Malanek999, 31 décembre 2010 - 02:14 .

[Dave of Canada]

*sniffles*



I'll... I'll be playing on casual unless there's an achievement for Nightmare.



*cries*



Casual is more fun to just rush through and explore the plot, that way I'm less frustrated and more able to like it on my first playthrough. Though I won't mind if there's an achievement because I'd be able to look relieved and not laugh at NPCs who say "Wow, that was one tough fight!" when I two shot the enemies.

[HolyJellyfish]

Negix wrote...
Me (healer): guys... its not my fault if the tank feels like pulling everything that has a red name....
tank: dont change the topic!! u suck!!!

and suddenly i remember why i stopped playing this game when those random groups where introduced,,,,,

Have you guys ever considered a strike? I hear that does wonders in the real world.

Or a sit in. That would be interesting.

[In Exile]

Malanek999 wrote...
If they have done their job right in terms of balancing it for no friendly fire, I suspect this won't be very satisfying.

But if they did their job right and balanced for FF on nightmare, abilities will remain efficient on that difficulty.

[upsettingshorts]

Malanek999 wrote...

Also what were you planning for two-handed warriors, where as I understand it, everything is an aoe attack?

I wasn't planning anything really.  That'd be one of those "Id have to see how much it changes things" things by playing on Nightmare. 

[Ziggeh]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Or a sit in. That would be interesting.

All sit around major cities not engaging in any content, that'll show them.

[Eclipse_9990]

Sigh.. When I saw "FROM: HARCORE RPG GAMER" I thought it was another DA2 review.. I am very disappointed.

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 31 décembre 2010 - 02:48 .

[NightmarezAbound]

okay I have to ask, does anyone watch the release info videos? to the OP, if you watched the making of DA2 part 1, you will see it can be done in a quick style of play, a more action rpg, or you can get down to the pause and choose tactics, for each member of your group, for a more tactical feel.

[Bryy_Miller]

Dave of Canada wrote...
 unless there's an achievement for Nightmare.

Oh, let's not be pretend naive now.

[AlanC9]

Pwnsaur wrote...

I find the label troll is being utilized to marginalize and invalidate people to avoid addressing their issue. Let's just stop the namecalling, because THAT.... seems like a more obvious sign of 'trolling.'

Since you're new here, you may not realize exactly how many of the complaint posts are made by the same group of posters -- sometimes in inventive new ways, sometimes just  the same boring crap we've read a dozen times before. And since jairohh repeated some of those played-out points, he gets tarred with the same brush. I agree it isn't fair, but it's understandable.

As pointed out upthread, jairohh was just wrong about the game being hack and slash -- to the extent that's a meaningful term in the first place. He also made all sorts of invalid assumptions about "hardcore RPG fans, " and then went on to demonstrate a pretty limited familiarity with RPGs

soteria called it way upthread. It wasn't trolling, but he did bury his serious points in a bunch of b.s. rhetoric. That never works if you're trying to be taken seriously.

But why am I telling you that? That's your day job IIRC.

[Bryy_Miller]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Sigh.. When I saw "FROM: HARCORE RPG GAMER" I thought it was another DA2 review.. I am very disappointed.

That would be an awesome name for a review site.

[Maria Caliban]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
 unless there's an achievement for Nightmare.

Oh, let's not be pretend naive now.

In DA:O, they didn't have an achievement for playing through on Nightmare because they said that difficulty could be changed on the fly. They added the achievement for GoA, but I don't have that DLC so I don't know if difficulty is fixed or if there's a flag that pops up when you change the difficulty or what.

[Merci357]

Maria Caliban wrote...

In DA:O, they didn't have an achievement for playing through on Nightmare because they said that difficulty could be changed on the fly. They added the achievement for GoA, but I don't have that DLC so I don't know if difficulty is fixed or if there's a flag that pops up when you change the difficulty or what.

You could just change the difficulty before the Harvester fight to earn the Grim Reaper achievement.