52 réponses à ce sujet

[Tyndrel]

Thank you to all at CTP for your years of service to this community, your relentless pursuit of the highest standards and your constant readiness to help those new to the art of modelling, this is a sad day for all we NwN diehards.  To those who have already moved on or are considering doing so may I offer my best wishes for the future no matter where it may lead you, to those who are unsure please stay, your game needs you!

Modifié par Tyndrel, 03 janvier 2011 - 12:42 .

[ehye_khandee]

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...

Well, I guess there is no further reason to explain why 90+% of original authors have left the NWN scene now is there? One simple minded team wiped out all reason to contribute, since no credit is EVER given to the original author. So, why should we bother? I guess this does mean farewell from me as well, you creeps keep deliberately starting and RE-starting this battle all the time. It surely is not worth contributing anything at all to folks like you. Most of the folks demanding freedom of use, are completely incapable of creating anything on their own anyway, so have at it folks. I hope you choke on it all.

Creeps? Sheesh! Then you assert others don't value CONTRIBUTED work! Pshaw!

Choke on it?

Credit is given by the GOOD people. Published CONTRIBUTIONS are just that, legal limits are as FS noted above. BAD attitude on the part of persons who give and then want to take away is honestly at the root of that exodus. *waves a fond farewell*

My my my, what a FINE last impression to leave us all with.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

[Estelindis]

For heavens' sake, can we please take these arguments out of the thread?  Omen's original question has been answered.  Other issues have been fought over so many times that no one's mind is going to be changed here.

Modifié par Estelindis, 03 janvier 2011 - 12:58 .

[FunkySwerve]

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...

Hey Funky, just what kind of attorney are you? Are you a copyright attorney? Thought not, so just take your own advice bud, and don't speak about stuff you have no legal experience with and no reason to even be concerned with.

My practice areas include contract law, which is the controlling law here, as you would realize, given some legal education. Setting that aside, though, and assuming that I did have no experience in the field, why would it be ok for YOU to speak about 'stuff you have no legal experience with' (not being an attorney at all), but not for me? I would still have the advantage of a legal education over you, making that an extremely bizarre standard at best. Who is the one not following their own advice here? And why would you presume that I have no reason to be concerned with such issues? If anything, I have more interest than you, being both a content creator AND a practicioner in the field.

I don't really understand why this needs to get heated. I'm simply asking you not to hand out phony legal advice. When someone asks if they CAN do something, the simple solution, without making any illegitimate claims to legal expertise, is to answer the underlying moral question instead: SHOULD they?

Funky

[TSMDude]

Since this is a public forum I will say this and not step in this fray;



It is indeed that once you buy and make ANYTHING for use within the Toolset provided us by the game that you have no LEGAL ramifications to it.



THERE IS NO OWNERSHIP.



You can demand you get credit. You can demand someone does not use it. You can also spit in one hand and wish in the other and see what you get first.



The main thing to keep in mind is you are making this for the NWN COMMUNITY and not for any other reason. If one person enjoys your work than awesome and that in itself should be enough.

[Estelindis]

If we cannot treat each other with affection and respect without threats of legal action being thrown around, then we've already lost anything that would make playing and modding this game together enjoyable. I think that really makes these legal arguments irrelevant.

Accordingly, I respectfully ask that folks drop this issue. Bear in mind that Bannor was not the one who raised it but was only responding - it was not inconsistent for him to comment on the issue before requesting the matter to be shelved, as he had right of response. You are free to disagree with his opinion, of course, but if you want to discuss the matter at length I ask you to do so elsewhere. Let's put this matter behind us rather than adding more flames to the fire.

Modifié par Estelindis, 03 janvier 2011 - 08:54 .

[Tyndrel]

*In best (ex)school teacher voice* 
Are the protagonists in this tedious and circuitous argument ever going to change their opinions and come to an agreement on this subject?  Like many I suspect not, in which case I respectfully suggest that all parties just shut up...  please,  then go stand in the corners of the classroom until you can at least be polite to each other.

Moderator - Could the words copyright and attorney please be added to the swear filter.

It is a tragedy that a thread marking the end of CTP with all their contributions to this game is marred by such bickering. Could we please stay on subject.

Thank you.

[Tarot Redhand]

I agree with Tyndrel especially as this is an international community and one country's laws are not necessarily valid in another country let alone enforcible. It is therefore less than helpfull to talk about such things in an open forum.

TR

Modifié par Tarot Redhand, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:55 .

[rogueknight333]

I would like to express my own regret about the demise of the CTP, and best wishes to those involved for the future.

As per the wishes of multiple posters, my addressing of potentially controversial topics has been removed to a separate post.

[Mecheon]

Sad to see you guys go, but I guess this was a long time coming



Just curious, what's going to happen to the White Wizard tileset? I know there were a few incomplete ones (Forest, DLA Sandstone Caverns and the White Wizard), but out of them I remember hearing it was nearly complete. They were removed from their page, but it was said they would be reuploaded?



Out of all of them, this is the one I'm pretty concerned about because it was Pasilli's tileset

[Estelindis]

I'll try to find out about the sets that were part of Release 2. I know Bannor intended to get all the bugs of White Wizard worked out himself, but it was too much work for one person. (I have a lot of responsibility for this because I've pretty much done no CTP work lately.) Myself or someone else from the CTP team will get back to you.

[dunniteowl]

Long may the Banner of Bannor Bloodfist wave. It's a sad day when anything sort of closes up and goes away. I appreciate all the work the CTP has done over the years as well. While my primary interest is NWN2 these days, I do still have and play NWN and the content that just would not stop over the years was always, to me at least, just inspiring and amazing.

I bid a fond farewell to a vital and important component of the lifespan of NWN.

Long live the CTP, hip hip huzzah! Hip hip Huzzah! Hip hip huzzah!

And as far as that goes, Bannor, you would most certainly be more than welcome to transfer whatever you deem necessary, over to the NeverWinter Citadel Project's NWN side of things if you don't find a place to lodge all that stuff that isn't on the Vault.



best regards and well wishes,

dunniteowl

[Tarot Redhand]

Thank you Bannor for uploading the final version of CTP Babylon to the vault. And for what it's worth I always credit originators work where I've used it and the information is available.



TR

[Christopher]

I am looking at ways to save the a lot of vital information on the website. No activity had occurred on RPGmodding.com for some time and the site was becoming a graveyard. Working on the CTP was a fun hobby for some years but I lost interest in the creation aspect of content. I am a huge fan of CC and spend a LOT of time using and playing with others works. I get enjoyment out of modding and I admire those who persist in creating good content. Even when they occasionally get hit by trolls.



I will find a new home for all the knowledge that has built up over the years on the teams forums. I even have a SQL dump of DLA's forums in it's last days (vb3 format) 2/1/2008. I often thought about adding in their DLAmax support forum.



Take care

[Michael DarkAngel]

Christopher wrote...
I will find a new home for all the knowledge that has built up over the years on the teams forums. I even have a SQL dump of DLA's forums in it's last days (vb3 format) 2/1/2008. I often thought about adding in their DLAmax support forum.

Take care

My offer still stands, anything Bannor and Winterhawk don't want to use I will host.

Also, and I was hoping you had saved it, being a former DLA member and currently providing support for NWMax I would definitely love to host those forums.

Please PM me


  MDA

[Jfoxtail]

Adieu - Bannor ! I raise a tankard to you. Thank you on behalf of the pure users who enjoyed all your contributions.

By way of "non techincal" - can I post a question??

Can someone post a concise list of CTP and what I need for my own hacks folder and personal use only - ie single player mods. There is 1 and 2 and Babylon and all use the one master hak.

errr well - what should I have in the folder in similar fashion to the various incarnations (i.e. old days like cep 153 hak and tlk but cep 169 as well as cep 2.)

Thanks all

Modifié par Jfoxtail, 06 janvier 2011 - 06:25 .

[Bannor Bloodfist]

CTP_Common goes above any of the tielsets from CTP in your module properties hak list. Any tileset can be added from our releases.



As to CEP stuff? I have no idea, I don't use it. At one point, we were compatible, But that was before their last 2 or 3 patches. Now? Your guess is as good as mine. I would expect conflicts if you are using their tilesets, as I am fairly sure they are using a doorstypes.2da, likely an environment.2da and possibly an areag.ini all of which would have to be merged with the versions in the ctp_common.

[Eradrain]

Though I never had an opportunity to use the CTP's stuff, it's always a shame when another modding team officially kicks the bucket (Though I read in that other thread that someone might buy the website and keep it going after all?).

In any case, thanks for what you've done for the NWN community, like many of the others here, I salute you and your contributions!

Won't touch the ownership/IP argument beyond saying simply, opinion often seems to be split along supply/demand lines, with content developers feeling like they have ownership over what they make, and the people that consume that content for their own projects feeling entitled to use it. As others have said, you won't be able to change anyone's mind in either camp. I did find a pretty good solution, though. As a modder, I've stopped submitting my content to the vault. I use it myself, share it with close friends, and nobody else even needs to know it exists, let alone gets to use it. Seems to be a happy enough solution, perhaps it can work for you if you continue to make NWN content in a personal capacity. There's no obligation to share anything you make with people you do not feel will give you the respect and rights you feel you deserve.

Modifié par Eradrain, 06 janvier 2011 - 10:40 .

[Winterhawk99]

Yes Harvest Moon Consortium will by RPGmodding if everything goes well.

[FunkySwerve]

Eradrain wrote...
Won't touch the ownership/IP argument beyond saying simply, opinion often seems to be split along supply/demand lines, with content developers feeling like they have ownership over what they make, and the people that consume that content for their own projects feeling entitled to use it.

This is sort of akin to discussing differing opinions on the answer to a calculus question, where one opinion is that of a calculus professor, and the other that of a gradeschooler, in that a) there is a correct answer, and one party is an expert and the other party lacks a great deal  foundational knowlege on the subject. It would be absurd to lend the two 'opinions' equal weight.

You are certainly correct, though, that there is a group of content authors in the community ('suppliers', in your lingo, though there are plenty of suppliers who are not in that group, like me) who seem to share a view of copyright law that is divorced from both the reality of US copyright law and its underlying social policy goals. To exert the kind of control they want, they would need additional terms in their licensing (read: contract). This is why you see explicit clauses reserving the right to withdraw permission to use in licenses. Such a clause makes clear the nature of the content to the contracting parties, placing the risk of such withdrawal firmly on the shoulders of the user of the copyrighted material. When such a clause is absent, it is the habit of US courts to construe assignment of risk against the drafter (including cases where no written contract is made) - in this case, the licensor. This is because such a rule protects any number of efficient policy outcomes, inducing contracting parties to form clear, inclusive contracts with provision for otherwise unforseen circumstances, and to explicity include the cost of such risks in their calculations of the contract's value - promoting an actual 'meeting of the minds', as well as an increased number of pareto-efficient market outcomes (more, and more efficient contracts).

Funky

[olivier leroux]

Sadly, I guess Eradrain has a point in what he says and suggests although I have to say I don't quite like the assumption that the community is divided into productive content providers on one side and demanding "consumers" on the other. Custom content creators and builders - even players - all depend on each other and NWN wouldn't be what it is today without any of these groups. In an ideal world the NWN community would be all about sharing in a spirit of friendship, inspiring creativity, giving credit and showing respect for each other, without any need for claimed hierarchies or legal threats. Apparantly my outlook is a tad too naive but these ongoing fights really make me sad.



Very sad about the end of the awesome CTP, too. Much respect to Bannor Bloodfist and all the people involved in the CTP over the years! Thank you!

[Eradrain]

@FunkySwerve:
Um.  I'm not really interested in talking about legality here, partially because as Estelendis pointed out, it's ridiculous that this discussion has even gone in that direction, and partially because I don't think we need to resort to it.  I was speaking simply about the greater morality/ethics of custom content sharing in the NWN community, a debate that has certainly taken place in many instances before this one and that has led some of our greatest custom content authors, like Lord Rosenkrantz, to feel so ill-used and underappreciated that they left altogether.

I think ultimately it is not asking too much for custom content authors to be respected for the work they make, and a great deal of that respect comes from acknowledging the fact that whatever greater licensing issues may apply, they are the artists that made what the builder and player are enjoying, and they deserve concrete acknowledgment of that fact.  Citing legality and saying "Hah!  This doesn't belong to you anymore, you put it on the vault!" is precisely doing the opposite, by going over their head and explaining to them in no uncertain terms that you do not care for their feelings with regard to their own creations.

Ultimately, this causes talented artists like LR (And much less talented but still previously active ones, like myself) to question why they are even making content for people who approach them with barely any thanks, but an enormously swelled sense of entitlement, and then they simply stop.  And the whole community suffers for it.

Now if you want to continue to stick to the legality as the sole deciding factor here, then go ahead, that's your right.  But I won't think any better of you for it, and it's possible it might contribute, as this attitude has in the past, to the diminishment of this community of content authors.

@Olivier:
I didn't mean to imply that all people who don't make custom content but use it fall into the category of entitlement I described, I'm sorry for having it come off that way.  Rather, I think it's something like Gay Rights/Gay Marriage, where while (presumably) all or almost all gay folks (Content authors) believe in their right to get married, there are plenty of heterosexuals (Supportive, kind community members) who also support them in that right (Regardless of what the letter of the law may say on the matter!), but there are also people who feel that they should not, for whatever reason, be permitted to marry (Unsupportive, entitled community members).

In point of fact, the kindness of those people, like yourself, who go out of their way to recognize and thank custom content authors is a large part of what makes it worthwhile to share these creations at all.  Even, in some cases, to even bother making them.  I was not trying to downplay the value of positive feedback in a modder's experience, its importance and value cannot possibly be overstated.  Rather, I was just identifying the two polarities in this recurring conflict.

Modifié par Eradrain, 07 janvier 2011 - 01:55 .

[Jenna WSI]

Thanks for the time and work you put into the community on the project.. as was said, don't leave NWN though as a player or forum poster!

[FunkySwerve]

Eradrain wrote...

@FunkySwerve:
Um.  I'm not really interested in talking about legality here, partially because as Estelendis pointed out, it's ridiculous that this discussion has even gone in that direction, and partially because I don't think we need to resort to it. 

Actually, you did broach legality, when you mentioned IP. I think it's become a habit in some circles to conflate the two, which is a large part of what I'm objecting to. And I hardly think it's rediculus that the discussion has gone there, since the OP has posted repeatedly on the topic. I've largely been honoring Este's requests, only responding when other posters, such as yourself, raise the issue anew. Your post implied that there was some kind of level debate on the legalities, rather than the morality, which was what I took issue with.

I think ultimately it is not asking too much for custom content authors to be respected for the work they make, and a great deal of that respect comes from acknowledging the fact that whatever greater licensing issues may apply, they are the artists that made what the builder and player are enjoying, and they deserve concrete acknowledgment of that fact.

I agree with that 100%. As I said, I have a great deal of sympathy for content creators, being one myself.

  Citing legality and saying "Hah!  This doesn't belong to you anymore, you put it on the vault!" is precisely doing the opposite, by going over their head and explaining to them in no uncertain terms that you do not care for their feelings with regard to their own creations.

I have yet to see anyone do that here. Who are you referring to?

Ultimately, this causes talented artists like LR (And much less talented but still previously active ones, like myself) to question why they are even making content for people who approach them with barely any thanks, but an enormously swelled sense of entitlement, and then they simply stop.  And the whole community suffers for it.

I've had similar experiences. Especially irritating was when someone tried to blackmail me into working on their mod by voting a 1 on the Vault until 'I made it work', because they were too lazy to read the readme. It certainly wouldn't cause me to leave the community, though - more on that later.

Now if you want to continue to stick to the legality as the sole deciding factor here, then go ahead, that's your right.  But I won't think any better of you for it, and it's possible it might contribute, as this attitude has in the past, to the diminishment of this community of content authors.

I get the impression you haven't read my posts in this thread very carefully. Just above, I urged authors to discuss the morality, rather than the legality, of the issues at hand, instead of resorting to false legal claims in an attempt to bully people into complying with their views on authorship. I'm certainly not 'sticking to the legality' as you put it, as a sole deciding factor for how people should behave, I'm just ensuring that people don't make false claims about legaity in order to advance their own agendas.

That aside, though, our legal system is based on very nuanced economic and moral theory, so it's a useful point of reference in any such discussion, as some of the points I made about effiency above aimed to demonstrate. Our contract law hails back to english common law, and finds its roots in both market theory and utilitarianism. The notion that the law is somehow diviorced from moral considerations is mistaken, at least insofar as it relates to market forces.

@Olivier:
I didn't mean to imply that all people who don't make custom content but use it fall into the category of entitlement I described, I'm sorry for having it come off that way.  Rather, I think it's something like Gay Rights/Gay Marriage, where while (presumably) all or almost all gay folks (Content authors) believe in their right to get married, there are plenty of heterosexuals (Supportive, kind community members) who also support them in that right (Regardless of what the letter of the law may say on the matter!), but there are also people who feel that they should not, for whatever reason, be permitted to marry (Unsupportive, entitled community members).

While it's completely tangential to the conversation, I'm just DYING to hear you complete this analogy. Who are the set-upon content creators here? What inferences is the reader intended to draw here?

In point of fact, the kindness of those people, like yourself, who go out of their way to recognize and thank custom content authors is a large part of what makes it worthwhile to share these creations at all.  Even, in some cases, to even bother making them.  I was not trying to downplay the value of positive feedback in a modder's experience, its importance and value cannot possibly be overstated.  Rather, I was just identifying the two polarities in this recurring conflict.

I think that some content creators tend to exagerate this polarity, just as they tend to give too much weight to their own rights, and not enough to those of end users. Take, for example, the notion that an author's right to control of their content is supreme in all circumstances. This sounds great if you're an author, but what about the guy you gave access to your stuff, without warning that you might suddenly retract permission (to use the example that sparked this debate). Since you gave him access, he's expended work of his own in order to put your creations to use - creating creatures based on models, areas on tilesets, and so on. To expect him to toss all that work out on a word from you is to assign all value to your own work, and none to his - to place your rights as supreme to his in all cases, based on some abstract definition of you as 'creator' and he as 'modder'. This is a grossly one-sided approach, which is why you should warn modders up front if this is your expectation (and also why it is covered by contract rather than copyright), so that they are aware of the risks to using your content, and disputes over who should bear the risk are avoided. That way, should you decide to pull your content, they had fair warning, knew the risk, and opted to take it - they have no basis to complain. Of course, some end-users may well opt not to use your content under such conditions, but that's the cost of such control.

On a more personal level, I have trouble understanding why someone would opt to leave the community over such a matter. This is a hobby, and they're presumably doing it because they enjoy it, and enjoy seeing their work put to use by others. That's part of the reason I don't bother slapping even a generic license on my stuff (lack of fear of lawsuit is most of the rest - there's a big upside to the EULA as well). Even the people who plagiarized my work were praising it, in a backhanded sort of way - imitation, after all, being the highest form of praise. Amusing coda to that tale - the plagiarists actually came to me looking for help, some months down the road.

Likewise, I don't understand the desire to exercise control over one's content once it's out there. Creation is a dialectical process - expecting your work to be static once it leaves ones hands doesn't seem particularly realistic to me . People are going to use it to do things you never anticipated, and some of which you might not even like (and some of which will rock). That, however, is a part of the value you've created - the potential for creative adaptations. Why the desire to stifle it? I just don't get it. If you stood to make money over it, I could see being upset for a multitude of reasons - loss/dilution of commercial value chief among them, but in a non-market setting...eh. From where I'm standing it seems like some content creators are applying a set of market-based expectations to a non-market, hobbyist's arena, with predictable results.

Funky

[Bannor Bloodfist]

Guys, Gals, It has been requested by multiple folks in this thread.



STOP THE SPAMMING REGARDING LEGALITY OF ANYTHING OR THE STATUS OF COPYRIGHTS. Move that to a different thread if the topic is that important to you. Otherwise I will have to officially request that the moderators just lock this thread.



To those that are actually taking the opportunity to thank the CTP team for their efforts over the years, I would like to say "Thank You". We worked hard to bring something to the community that could and would be used to help improve their individual enjoyment over the game that Bioware provided to us all. I know that the few previous CTP team members that still visit the forums appreciate the fact that you have all liked the efforts we put forth.



There are still a few sets that are in the works, and they may still get released at some date in the future by me personally, if there is still a desire out there to have them. No promises on the amount of time it will take, and you can bet that it will take much longer than it did when CTP had a working team.