25 réponses à ce sujet

[kcifor]

Hey all, just new to the boards and I'm on my final, "canonical" playthrough you might say, to import into Dragon Age 2. Anyways I don't know if its been brought up but the search function has brought up nothing so far. What I want to ask is that, is there any roleplay angle that could justify doing the quests given by the connected Innkeeper in the Gnarled Noble Tavern, especially on a "good" playthrough? I can't seem to see any reason my PC would even bother to ask about anything "maybe strictly not legal" to this barkeep whatsoever since theres no incentive to ever do so. The XP and feeling of completion would be nice but I just can't seem to justify even doing some of these tasks (with dumping bodies down a Chantry well seemed to be the worst). Any ideas? Was there any indication that these acts might help ANYONE besides the "K" or "D" (or "R" for that matter)? The only reason I could think of is that, with the two rogues not fighting anymore, Denerim would be a safer place but that seems pretty weak. To just earn some extra sovereigns also feels the same way.

Any thoughts or input would be nice, even if its to say "JUST DONT DO THEM." Thanks!

[mousestalker]

Cash and XP. There doesn't seem to be any other effect in game (unlike Trial of Crows, for instance). My rogues all tend to do the favours, my Cousland and Dwarf warriors tend to skip them.

Modifié par mousestalker, 31 décembre 2010 - 10:16 .

[Corker]

I've had Wardens skip these quests, certainly, including a duster who wasn't going to be anyone's fall girl anymore, nuh-uh.

But if you're looking for rationalization...

The Warden is a wanted criminal, accused of killing the king.  Plus, the current Arl of Denerim is the loathsome Rendon Howe, and his personal guards are monsters.  So asking for work that's "not strictly legal" could be a way of asking about striking at the Warden's enemies - who are The Law!

Of course, that's not what you get from the bartender.  You get some dirty work.  A very upstanding Warden might well turn it all down.  A 'good' Warden who's low on resources and needs some cash might take some of the less dodgy-looking quests... maybe R's and the garnet quest.  (I don't remember if that's one of the first ones available or not.)

I don't remember them as being particularly awesome quests; it's not like missing out on Sgt. Kylon or anything.  (The letters for R's quest are funny, but you don't have to take the quest to pick up the letters as you adventure.)  You don't lose a whole lot by skipping them.

[Zjarcal]

I agree on the asking for "illegal activities". Honestly, that's the last thing I would think about asking a bartender of all people. It would help to imagine that when greeting the bartender he lets go a comment about how he's waiting for a "special delivery" which leads to my character asking about it and then the whole illegal business is explained.



That being said, the only quest from that board I do is the love letters one, since you already collected them while traveling through Ferelden. The rest I ignore as they are really OOC for my warden.



Then again, if you were playing a character who didn't care about the moral implications behind the quests, you could always RP that you just want a little extra cash and maybe acquire some connections in the "underground" scene.

[Raelis25]

None of my Wardens ever bothered themselves with this quest. They're all good guys, though, and would not deliberately ask if something illegal needs to be done. There's plenty of opportunities to make money without doing any sort of shady stuff.

[Reika]

My main Warden did them mainly to make connections for information and some extra resources. She didn't really enjoy doing that kind of work, but well...she was wanted for regicide and treason, not to mention having Howe hunting her because she was the last living Cousland, so having extra ears helped.



Not to mention if everything went pear shaped with the Landsmeet, she'd have the connections and favors owed to get her people out of the country if need be. That was the other reason why she did the Trial of Crows, but I RPed that she didn't let the rest of the group know who exactly she got the jobs from...

[KnightofPhoenix]

My Cousland did it to form an underground network of resistance inside Denerim itself, for information and intelligence and possible armed uprising if necessary. So, I RP that he allied himself with Antivan Crows, Blackstone Irregulars, with Sgt Kylon, Mage Collective and with the criminal underground.

Just like like the Sim Couldry quests, Arcturus aims to weaken the establishment from behind the scenes. Also to keep in mind, Arcturus was always ambitious and he always knew that he was going to take power in some fashion or the other. Knowing the criminal underground well would prove to be useful in the future and that's why he helped one of the criminal leaders to eliminate the other. That's one less criminal to deal with in the future

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 décembre 2010 - 09:47 .

[kcifor]

Wow this board responds fast well not only fast but also with good advice too. Signs of a good community. Combining some ideas of you guys, I think I've come up with a way to still do some of these quests but still keep my Malcolm Cousland noble (*puts on sunglasses for the bad pun* YEEEEEEAH!)



I may just wait and do the Toxin Extracts and Garnet ones (if I even get 10 Garnets, sometimes I get 4, sometimes I get 15 over the course of a playthrough) during the Landsmeet, right after the confrontation by Loghain and Rendon Howe but before talking to Eamon about the Queen being kidnapped (because that would absolutely take precedent). Perhaps my PC would realize that I'm going to need all the help I can get and I need to do everything in my power to undermine Loghain and Howe's influence, even if it means turning to illegal activities with Denerim's shady underground for their support. I probably won't finish the entire chain since I can't justify leaving Denerim for weeks at a time (according to Dagna it takes at least four weeks or something like that to just get from Orzammar to the Circle Tower so imagine how long it would take to go from Denerim to all the other places just to plant some "dead drops"). So no killing "D" I suppose.



Sorry for the wall of text and thanks for your help guys!

[Reika]

Well, Marlana did the Blackstone Irregulars because she figured she'd need more troops, and there's nothing wrong with using mercs if they're trained and have solid leadership (that's why she went with Taoran in "A Change of Leadership", she didn't want to deal with Raelnor and his dubious ways).



Slim's quests gave her a way to strike directly at Howe and Loghain. She still has Loghain's crown to giggle over every so often.



Helping Kylon was her way of trying to make up for dealing with the shady side of things, not to mention being rather horrified at what Howe was doing to Denerim. And tried really hard not to think of what Highever was like



She didn't do anything with the Collective until after doing Broken Circle, she was thoroughly disgusted with how things were handled in the Circle. 4 people and a dog took care of the mess when there were far more templars who could have dealt with it, but instead were running around like chickens with their heads cut off.



But then again, she never really saw herself as a good person, but doing what needed to be done. Needless to say, she really, really hates being called the Hero of Ferelden.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

JUST DO THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!



Lol. Anyways, it's not hard to justify them regardless of playthrough. You're a Warden who is already been decalred an outlaw. Thus, the legality might not be as big a concern as you might think. You are basically helping out two factions of rogues/thieves, and getting paid to do so. You need the money to raise funds to help in fighting the blight, and have finally decided you're not going to be terribly picky how those funds come to you, since you have little options, really.

[LobselVith8]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

JUST DO THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lol. Anyways, it's not hard to justify them regardless of playthrough. You're a Warden who is already been decalred an outlaw. Thus, the legality might not be as big a concern as you might think. You are basically helping out two factions of rogues/thieves, and getting paid to do so. You need the money to raise funds to help in fighting the blight, and have finally decided you're not going to be terribly picky how those funds come to you, since you have little options, really.

Makes sense, but there doesn't seem to be much given in the way of incentive regarding which faction (K or D) you'd rather support at the end, though (unlike the choice between Bhelen and Harrowmont, for instance).

[errant_knight]

kcifor wrote...

Hey all, just new to the boards and I'm on my final, "canonical" playthrough you might say, to import into Dragon Age 2. Anyways I don't know if its been brought up but the search function has brought up nothing so far. What I want to ask is that, is there any roleplay angle that could justify doing the quests given by the connected Innkeeper in the Gnarled Noble Tavern, especially on a "good" playthrough? I can't seem to see any reason my PC would even bother to ask about anything "maybe strictly not legal" to this barkeep whatsoever since theres no incentive to ever do so. The XP and feeling of completion would be nice but I just can't seem to justify even doing some of these tasks (with dumping bodies down a Chantry well seemed to be the worst). Any ideas? Was there any indication that these acts might help ANYONE besides the "K" or "D" (or "R" for that matter)? The only reason I could think of is that, with the two rogues not fighting anymore, Denerim would be a safer place but that seems pretty weak. To just earn some extra sovereigns also feels the same way.

Any thoughts or input would be nice, even if its to say "JUST DONT DO THEM." Thanks!

Heh, I just don't do them. Never have, actually. My characters just wouldn't do those or a number of other quests including the mage collective and others. They go against all their values. One of these days I'm going to play a character I have who's...well, pretty awful, and she'll do them, but that's not going to be an easy playthrough for me.

Modifié par errant_knight, 23 janvier 2011 - 08:07 .

[Faelix_Majere]

I like this discussion, since it shows a line of thinking in the developers souls...

Mainly, I have this gripe about Dragonage, that it is onesided. Basically the game rewards the "evil" deed, time and time again. There is infact, no reward to be found for the "good" deed.

SPOILERS: Like in; Support Bhelen the Tyrant and murderer of opposition, to get the strong leadership that will benefit you in the end. Ignore the possibility of removing a terrible curse put on a tribe of people, to get a cool werewolf army in the end. Subject hapless dwarfes to tortourus methods in order to get a golem army. Put an unborn infant into a potential hell over all hells, to save yourself or your mate in the end...

If you don't...You get nada. And so on and so on...

Every time you are told why this is a terrible solution, and then rewarded by the game if you chose so anyway.

So is the game really openended? When it always only rewards the one line of thinking? The evil deed?

Why can't you come through for the chantry? Raising an army of knights wielding a morale never before seen on the face of the earth? Why can't you turn the Blackstone Irregulars into a coming-to-be righteous semi-police force. You can corrupt them...

What if you had the choice to deal with the Crows instead of just working for them. Maybe had the Irregulars define themselves and become said "good" force in a clash with this outlandish mafia?

All in all, the developers see evil as strong, and good as some sort of weak affable condition.

So where are the RPG choices at infact, on the bottom line? Trying to explain why an evil deed is actually a good deed, judging from these forums. More or less.

I find this to be a weakness in the development and RPG capabilities of the people behind the game. And infact pretty blind to the real world, where a belief in "good", has time and time again showed itself to utterly crush that which was swallowed up by evil.

Evil is weak IRL, it's soldiers break the line, it cannot trust itself, it is always more divided than it is united. It fears progress as progress is power uncontrolled. So where is that at in this story? Howe stands toe to toe with Loghain as he sees Loghains plans crumble and shatter. He wouldn't have done that IRL, he would have put a knife into the back of his weak leader, left the field leaving Loghain to share fate with the king he murdered. Instead this wicked man walks unquestioning straight into death. Unplausible, as he is a man that deserves "more". Such a man is never strong enough.

Modifié par Faelix_Majere, 23 janvier 2011 - 09:35 .

[HolyAvenger]

I didn't do that line of quests with my good Cousland warrior. Or the Antivan assasinations.That's just the price of RP'ing.

[Joy Divison]

As for the Antivan assassinations, my GW works with them so no new contracts get put out. More for pragmatic than noble reasons, but there you go.



The bartender quests are mostly along the same lines favoring pragmatism.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I've really yet to play a "good" character, so to speak, so I've always taken the quests, and could find no problems justifying it from an RP perspective.



I don't think the quests are really an issue of morality, but ethics, if you are thinking in terms of D&D alignment. The issue with rogue quests is more a case of law vs chaos in the D&D paradigm, rather than the more-good/evil one.



Basically, a character slotted as "lawful good" might have trouble justifying doing them. But neutral or chatatic "good" types really don't. They can justify it as "sticking it to the man", for example.

[errant_knight]

Faelix_Majere wrote...

I like this discussion, since it shows a line of thinking in the developers souls...

Mainly, I have this gripe about Dragonage, that it is onesided. Basically the game rewards the "evil" deed, time and time again. There is infact, no reward to be found for the "good" deed.

SPOILERS: Like in; Support Bhelen the Tyrant and murderer of opposition, to get the strong leadership that will benefit you in the end. Ignore the possibility of removing a terrible curse put on a tribe of people, to get a cool werewolf army in the end. Subject hapless dwarfes to tortourus methods in order to get a golem army. Put an unborn infant into a potential hell over all hells, to save yourself or your mate in the end...

If you don't...You get nada. And so on and so on...

Every time you are told why this is a terrible solution, and then rewarded by the game if you chose so anyway.

So is the game really openended? When it always only rewards the one line of thinking? The evil deed?

Why can't you come through for the chantry? Raising an army of knights wielding a morale never before seen on the face of the earth? Why can't you turn the Blackstone Irregulars into a coming-to-be righteous semi-police force. You can corrupt them...

What if you had the choice to deal with the Crows instead of just working for them. Maybe had the Irregulars define themselves and become said "good" force in a clash with this outlandish mafia?

All in all, the developers see evil as strong, and good as some sort of weak affable condition.

So where are the RPG choices at infact, on the bottom line? Trying to explain why an evil deed is actually a good deed, judging from these forums. More or less.

I find this to be a weakness in the development and RPG capabilities of the people behind the game. And infact pretty blind to the real world, where a belief in "good", has time and time again showed itself to utterly crush that which was swallowed up by evil.

Evil is weak IRL, it's soldiers break the line, it cannot trust itself, it is always more divided than it is united. It fears progress as progress is power uncontrolled. So where is that at in this story? Howe stands toe to toe with Loghain as he sees Loghains plans crumble and shatter. He wouldn't have done that IRL, he would have put a knife into the back of his weak leader, left the field leaving Loghain to share fate with the king he murdered. Instead this wicked man walks unquestioning straight into death. Unplausible, as he is a man that deserves "more". Such a man is never strong enough.

I don't see this at all, myself. There are good choices for which you can't see future consequences, true (Harrowmont vs Bhelen), and there is a choice that can't be called good, may have a good future consequence or a bad one (DR), but most of the main quests can have good endings with no downside. You can save Connor and Isolde both and have the support of the mages. You can save the elves and the werewolves, with no cost to yourself--still getting an army.  You don't need the golems, they're an extra that was never anticipated. You have the dwarven army you went for. You get more coin than you really need without doing any of the murky quests--and it's pretty obvious right off the bat that all the sidequests except the chanter's board are murky. The whole theme of the game is sacrifice for duty, honor, etc, so it makes perfect sense that if you want to play a character who takes those things very seriously, there be some sacrifice involved, and missing those quests does nothing to weaken your character at end game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

errant_knight wrote...
 The whole theme of the game is sacrifice for duty, honor, etc,

Strange, when the game has been marketed as a dark fantasy, with the "not every hero is pure" adds.

[Elhanan]

It would seem to depend on how one wished to play that specific Warden. I have done so a few times; those coming from like or tougher backgrounds. And I have passed on this series a few times, as it seemed out of character for some Wardens. One DC Warden passed on them due to his attempts to elevate his station, and one DC did them as he was used to even worse (ie; he used to make the DB's himself).

Good news is that there is plenty of XP and gold to gather in spite of skipping this quest series or not.

[errant_knight]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
 The whole theme of the game is sacrifice for duty, honor, etc,

Strange, when the game has been marketed as a dark fantasy, with the "not every hero is pure" adds.

I didn't say that your PC couldn't reject those ideas entirely, but dealing with them, either to reject or accept them, is central to decision making.

[Maria13]

In the posters' views who is the worst, as in morally most reprehensible 'interested party' K, D or any other?

Modifié par Maria13, 23 janvier 2011 - 05:07 .

[Elhanan]

Maria13 wrote...

In the posters' views who is the worst, as in morally most reprehensible 'interested party' K, D or any other?

Due to Gorim's likeable qualities, I tend to see his candidate as a little better. But both are parasites, IMO.

[LobselVith8]

Faelix_Majere wrote...

I like this discussion, since it shows a line of thinking in the developers souls...

Mainly, I have this gripe about Dragonage, that it is onesided. Basically the game rewards the "evil" deed, time and time again. There is infact, no reward to be found for the "good" deed.

Duncan does make it clear that Grey Wardens do whatever it takes to defeat the Blight. They aren't heroes, they're basically the only thing stopping the Blight from destroying all of Thedas, and that means they're willing to do some pretty extreme things (as Alistair admits at Ostagar).

Faelix_Majere wrote...

SPOILERS: Like in; Support Bhelen the Tyrant and murderer of opposition, to get the strong leadership that will benefit you in the end.

You could argue Harrowmont's policies on the casteless make him a "traditionalist" and therefore the real villain between the two.
 

Faelix_Majere wrote...

Ignore the possibility of removing a terrible curse put on a tribe of people, to get a cool werewolf army in the end.

The elves have bows and can attack from a distance, so I always prefer them in combat to the werewolves. I suppose it's an issue of preference, but I think (IMHO) that the elves are more beneficial to the attack against the darkspawn than the werewolves are.

Faelix_Majere wrote...

Subject hapless dwarfes to tortourus methods in order to get a golem army.

Branka's insane, though. The devs make the choice easier because they make Branka mentally unstable and obsessed rather than sane and dedicated. As pragmatic as the decision over the Anvil is, it's difficult to leave it in Branka's hands when she hears admits to hearing voices.

Faelix_Majere wrote...

Put an unborn infant into a potential hell over all hells, to save yourself or your mate in the end...

Or it's an issue of helping Morrigan preserving one of the last remaining mysteries of the world from slaughter...

Faelix_Majere wrote...

If you don't...You get nada. And so on and so on...

Every time you are told why this is a terrible solution, and then rewarded by the game if you chose so anyway.

So is the game really openended? When it always only rewards the one line of thinking? The evil deed?

Why can't you come through for the chantry?

I think the Dalish and the mages would view the Chantry as the "evil option."