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ME 3... Don't nerf Earth (mixed topics)


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#26
Bourne Endeavor

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Just because I find these intriguing enough, I shall rebuttal your reasons.

Rebuttal I: An entirely logical conclusion, albeit seething with xenophobia. Why should the 5th Fleet, the human race, be viewed in any superior regard than the lives of other species? Holding back to concentrate on Sovereign is tactical. Holding back because the casualties to humans would be significant is xenophobic.

Rebuttal II: The Council takes action based upon proof. Throughout both games Shepard never once offers any irrefutable evidence of the Reapers. In actuality, this is a consequential plothole in Mass Effect. Shepard obtained data of Sovereign from their encounter on Virmire via recordings from their hardsuits and compiled analysis via the Normandy. Ashley even recommends this yet neither is submitted. The Council is not weak, they simply do not make decisions based upon bazaar and irrational dreams. One could ponder the reason the Asari councilor did not meld her mind with Shepard's but that is a plothole argument against ME.

Rebuttal III: There was no rational reason beyond human arrogance that would support why humans should be made a council race. We had only been apart of the galactic community for nineteen years. No intellectual governing body responsible for trillions of lives would ever allot authority of that magnitude from a species they know exceptionally little about. Cerberus is a biased organized whose primary interest is human dominance. They are not an accurate source.

Rebuttal IV: It is not the responsibility of a Governing board to engage in direct combat. In fact, that would be cited as reckless and often frowned upon. Such is why they have soldiers and generals to whom are trained for the specific task of protecting the Citadel and all the galactic civilization. In human history there have existed exceptions to the rule, where leaders fought directly but it frequently led to their demise. Furthermore, your definition of a parasite is incorrect. The Asari are not leeching life from their mates nor are they dangerous; excluding the Ardat-Yakshi, and are capable of breeding with their own species. They merely concluded breeding with other species bore superior offspring.

Personally, I am hopeful Earth's role is similar to Noveria and we explore other home worlds. Another outcome I fancy is Earth's complete destruction as a prominent part of the plot. Suffice it to say I do not desire a game where Earth is the entire focal point because ME has always been about the galaxy not Earth.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 01 janvier 2011 - 12:55 .


#27
Guest_Lady Marlen_*

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azerSheppard wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

VyseN1 wrote...

How is it weak seeking help against a common enemy that threatens all life in the galaxy? It isn't even like the Reapers will only destroy Earth, they will kill all the other races as well.

You mention the Thalix Cannon, that is from the Turians. So by your logic, humans are weak to accept that form of help.


1.The Turians back engineered from pieces of the Reapers main gun.... how is that from Turians? Mankind can buy them from the Turians then back engineer it ourselves, i don't see where the help is from the Turians.
2. The weak cling to each other, many weak will band together to fight a commo enemy....  If you need others to help do something than that makes you weak.

Take WW2 as an Example:


On the "Allies" side : primarily Great Britain, France, Soviet Union, USA, China, Canada. Poland, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India, the Netherlands, Czechslovakia, Belgium, Denmark and Norway also joined the allies. The Soviet Union was initially part of the Axis Powers but switched sides so did Finland and Romania. By 1945, almost the whole world were at war with the Axis.

On the "Axis" side: primarily Germany, Italy, and Japan. The axis also included minor powers such as Finland, Slovenia, Hungary, Manchkuo, Romania, Thailand, Persia and more.

~Italy also changed sides half way through the war.

If you know anything about WW2, then you would know it took the effort of most of the world to defeat Germany, Germany was strong, the alies were weak so they needed to band together... (Hitler was evil, but he made Germany the most powerful nation the world had ever seen)


Something tells me you aren't European.... The only reason Adolf got any progress was due to the lack of combatants.

US was too scared of economical fallout due to war, Russia wanted more power, wasn't in the least interested in fighting Germany. China's involvement was limited to their own Coasts, against Japan. Poland got destroyed waaay before it could even do anything, shared between the Germans and Russians when they had a treaty.

The Canadiens and Americans came into the picture much later, by than Adolf had already defeated the leftist part of France, ofcourse he received help from the French nationalists(50% of total population), who supported him.
Australia was barely active.
The Netherlands was "defeated" in about a day. 80% of them conspired with the **** regime. New Zealand, South Africa, India, shouldnt even be mentioned, I mean, what did they even do?

England was foolish enough with their appeasement politics, they caused a ****storm, allowing Germany to arm itself, eventhough according to the WWI treaties, it wasn't allowed to.

So yeah, here is the power of the Allies:
France (50% collaborators) surrendered.
Great Brittain, fought with it's Royal airforce, limited ground troups due to distance, felt safe oversees<--- shouldn't have.
Russia, first conspired with ****'s, was late to realise betrayal.
US, joined when they realised Adolf was going to take all over. (a little late)
All the others where as usefull as Saudia Arabia was in the war against the taliban.

Whilst the Germans had the Japanese air-force, and that of their own, and the support of Itally, which fought England off on Africa.
Germany wasn't really powerfull, their enemies where too soft. If France and England had attacked Adolf when he was still arming himself, it would have ended right there. But noooo, they thought Adolf would never go to war:innocent:
This coming from someone living in Belgium.


Can Shepard navigate his ship? Does he know about it's engines? NO, he needs people for that, without allies he is nothing. How can earth defeat the Reapers in any logical way? It took their entire fleet to take down one Reaper, how do you expect them to defeat a horde? Sending in Germany maybe?:whistle:

well said!

#28
Last Vizard

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azerSheppard
1. The majority of my ancestors are from Europe, my fathe side is from Prussia, spain maybe some Egyption form a far off time and my mothers side is from Ireland and Scottland
2. Everything is pretty much true, however it doesn't matter if GreatBriton and France couldn've crushed germany while they were arming, at the height of the war in 1942, what was the total number of the Allies military compared to Germany and Italy?, Japan didn't matter because it wasn't in the European theatre of war,
It doesn't matter if you agree with me or not, what i'm saying is that if Mankind is in debt to other races or in ruins and needs their help to rebuild, its going to make us look weak and I think we would be if thats the result... and why would saying that Shepperd needs others to pilot and maintain the Normandy mean my view is wrong? they are on his side, not a seperate group.

Modifié par Last Vizard, 01 janvier 2011 - 01:21 .


#29
luakel

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Last Vizard wrote...
2. Everything is pretty much true, however it doesn't matter if GreatBriton and France couldn've crushed germany while they were arming, at the height of the war in 1942, what was the total number of the Allies military compared to Germany and Italy?, Japan didn't matter because it wasn't in the European theatre of war,

I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty certain that, especially after Russia joined the war, the Allies always had superior numbers. Maybe for the year Britain & the Commonwealth were alone, the Axis was numerically superior, but even then I want to say that Britain had more resources at least. I know I've seen numbers, of aircraft and other armaments, with British production being higher than German production and the difference increasing every year...

And Germany didn't almost win because of strength or because they were better than the Allies, if that was the case, then every German tank would have been a Tiger and they would have had enough jets that our fighters wouldn't have been able to pick them off on the runways. Germany got extremely lucky, as did Hitler himself... the Allies all had problems that prevented victory from being truly attained until 1942/43 (yeah, it took 'til 45, but the tide turned decisively with Stalingrad and Kursk). And Hitler didn't turn Germany into the most powerful country on Earth; they were close to the US before 1914, enough so to single-handedly (Austria-Hungary? Ottoman Empire? Yah right) take on the world in World War I. Hitler just took the remnants of that power and imbued it with enough fanaticism that Germany could ignore some of the problems plaguing the Allies, like fear of WWI happening again and wiping out another generation (Britain, France), a stupid leader not being prepared for an attack (Russia), lazy mobilization and indifferent populace (USA), etc.

Last Vizard wrote...
It doesn't matter if you agree with me or not, what i'm saying is that if Mankind is in debt to other races or in ruins and needs their help to rebuild, its going to make us look weak and I think we would be if thats the result... and why would saying that Shepperd needs others to pilot and maintain the Normandy mean my view is wrong? they are on his side, not a seperate group.

And who's maintaining the Normandy? We have a Quarian as chief engineer, a Turian maintaining the guns, and a Salarian doing research that directly helped defeat the collectors. To add to that last one, Mordin is ex-STG, so he's likely to be more loyal to the Salarians than to humanity. Is Shep weak for relying on Mordin to invent the seeker swarm countermeasure? 

I think it takes much more strength to swallow your pride and ask for help/accept it when offered than it does to just fight to your last breath for fear of looking "weak".

#30
Last Vizard

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Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Personally, I am hopeful Earth's role is similar to Noveria and we explore other home worlds. Another outcome I fancy is Earth's complete destruction as a prominent part of the plot. Suffice it to say I do not desire a game where Earth is the entire focal point because ME has always been about the galaxy not Earth.


Yes to exploration of other home worlds, i'm not too big on the earth being destroyed part but that just means i'll make a different choice to others, yes i hope that Earths part of the story isn't very large.

1. Its natural to be interested in not only the survival of your own race but to want it to prosper, is the ME galaxy only populated by selfless aliens who would throw themselves on swords for each other? do Batarians wish for humanity to succeed? do you think if the citadel fleets are left  weak and crippled and C-secs numbers are devistated that their would be no rise in crime or that pirates wouldn't take advantage of the situation?

2. I agree, It felt like it was all up in the air but it still remains that Shepperd tried to warn them several times in person and through holo transmission

3. Yes Cerberus is a biased organized whose primary interest is human dominance, I would not want a group in charge that will bend to the will of aliens.  19 years is a long time, as stated in the game, the Turians were surprised by how capable we where as a race during the first contact war, they were trying to keep Mankind's destroyer production low using the 5:3:1 numbers, part of being on the council is having less restrictions to your race's military production... leaving Earth vulnerable if there was a shift of power among the Turian hierarchy and they decided to attack Mankind.

4. They were in the most powerful ship in the Citadel fleet during what might have been the final engagement before the relays were locked.... that ship was needed, If they were so selfless then why didn't they accelerate to near FTL speed and crash into the Reaper?

Were not so different you and I, the only difference is our views on who deserves loyalty, for me its Humanity for you its aliens and Humanity....

#31
lovgreno

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It seems like Earth has gone from being a superpower on the rise to become something more like the quarians: the homeworld and most of the population lost to the enemy. So now humanity is weak and yes it does suck to feel weak and in need of help but that is the reality Shepard must accept. It would make sense for aliens to offer help as the reapers are coming for them next. Also it would mean less damage to their infrastructure to fight the enemy away from their own homeworlds and colonies.

Then again the reapers may have hit the rest of the galaxy at the same time as Earth and if that is the case it may be each to their own.

Modifié par lovgreno, 01 janvier 2011 - 01:18 .


#32
Dean_the_Young

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Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Just because I find these intriguing enough, I shall rebuttal your reasons.

Rebuttal I: An entirely logical conclusion, albeit seething with xenophobia. Why should the 5th Fleet, the human race, be viewed in any superior regard than the lives of other species? Holding back to concentrate on Sovereign is tactical. Holding back because the casualties to humans would be significant is xenophobic.

Or nationalistic. Xeno-nationalism is a Council creation in the first place, but nationalism itself is an answer.

Why should my people and my nation (or, simply put, my group) suffer for your nation's advantage?


Rebuttal II: The Council takes action based upon proof. Throughout both games Shepard never once offers any irrefutable evidence of the Reapers. In actuality, this is a consequential plothole in Mass Effect. Shepard obtained data of Sovereign from their encounter on Virmire via recordings from their hardsuits and compiled analysis via the Normandy. Ashley even recommends this yet neither is submitted. The Council is not weak, they simply do not make decisions based upon bazaar and irrational dreams. One could ponder the reason the Asari councilor did not meld her mind with Shepard's but that is a plothole argument against ME.

The Council takes action based upon what's good for the Council. Even when there is proof of something, they can disbelieve and do nothing, or act on less evidence. Battle recordings, multi-member and species witnesses, technological analysis, and even the testimony of an actual Geth will not persuade the Council that Sovereign wasn't a Geth ship. A perported Geth recording of Saren boasting about Eden Prime will persuade them, in light of politics, to turn on their best agent and give Humanity a huge bone.

Rebuttal III: There was no rational reason beyond human arrogance that would support why humans should be made a council race. We had only been apart of the galactic community for nineteen years. No intellectual governing body responsible for trillions of lives would ever allot authority of that magnitude from a species they know exceptionally little about. Cerberus is a biased organized whose primary interest is human dominance. They are not an accurate source.

Simple: because humanity is at least the fourth most powerful military force in the galaxy, has a significant chunk of the galactic economy that's already rising as it's economy expands, and has only just started its colonization. It already possesses the power to set a large part of the galaxy ablaze now, in a losing war, and it's only going to get stronger.

The Alliance affects trillions now. It's policies and potential strengths make it a galactic actor of note, whether it's on the Council or not.

The Council doesn't care about long a civilization plays good citizen: the Volus created the galactic economy and have been waiting for more than a thousand years, only to be bypassed not once but twice by short-term ascendees. The Hanar and the Elcor have not waited as long as the Volus, the third race to discover the Citadel, but have been good citizens for centuries.

The Turians were given a council membership in return for their role against the Krogan. They were a new species.

The Council doesn't care about virtue or length of time a species waits. The Council is far more basic: it cares about the power of a species. No power, no right to have a say. Humanity does have the power. Humanity will have a say.

#33
LadyJaneGrey

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*Tries to decide if OP is serious or not.*

#34
Last Vizard

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LadyJaneGrey wrote...

*Tries to decide if OP is serious or not.*


... About?

#35
KainrycKarr

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Dealing with alien species and cultures, while fictional, is part of why I love Mass Effect.

Yeah yeah yeah, humans are great, big friggin' whoop, but I'd rather see the galaxy and it's various species as whole, rather than focus on humans, which is what we do 24/7 during our REAL lives.

#36
didymos1120

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Last Vizard wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Op is a real word 'vizard'...

Vizard is from Bleach, not a typo. I won't go into all the details but if you were implying he got it wrong he likely didn't.

Although if it was just a pun then I don't really have anything to say.


Yes its from Bleach


Actually, it's from the English language

#37
azerSheppard

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Last Vizard wrote...

azerSheppard
1. The majority of my ancestors are from Europe, my fathe side is from Prussia, spain maybe some Egyption form a far off time and my mothers side is from Ireland and Scottland
2. Everything is pretty much true, however it doesn't matter if GreatBriton and France couldn've crushed germany while they were arming, at the height of the war in 1942, what was the total number of the Allies military compared to Germany and Italy?, Japan didn't matter because it wasn't in the European theatre of war,
It doesn't matter if you agree with me or not, what i'm saying is that if Mankind is in debt to other races or in ruins and needs their help to rebuild, its going to make us look weak and I think we would be if thats the result... and why would saying that Shepperd needs others to pilot and maintain the Normandy mean my view is wrong? they are on his side, not a seperate group.




Japan was ALWAYS a superpower, they did the Chinese in, the Koreans and the Russians. Bold enough to invoke nuclear war with the states. Their kamikazi pilots where the ones that kept the US at bay.

Germany went into production of tanks, plains, and sub-marines, waaaay before the US decided to arm itself against them. England did have a great Naval force, and the RAF, but didn't arm itself during the German armament period. Adolf got lucky, because the Brits where afraid of a depression. (Notice how they actually did their best to defend Germany from heavy debts to the Allied countries.) 
Only France was pushing for grave economical penalties. The US was with GB on this one, they didn't want to lose a possible buyer for their product after WWII.

I'm trying to methaporically explain the problem of your thinking. Instead of nationalism, i use individualism.
Individualism is (here) simply the singleton version of nationalism. Instead of "My people first", it's "Me first".

If they are of the same group, individually, we can than assume that the "Council", in which also a human precides, is of the "same group".

If an individual :alien:, completely different from a second individual :mellow:, can be considered of the "same group", we can than assume that the collective of all individuals, possessing the same physical and mental qualities of individual :alien:, can be considered of the "same group" as the collective of all individuals, possessing the same physical and mental qualities of individual :mellow:.

Dunno if that helps.

#38
Sparda Stonerule

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Well time to give no quarter.

There is a word for your attitude. It's called pride. It's exactly the same attitude most Turians have in the game. Asking for help can be asking your peers to assist in a situation that is beneficial to both parties. Not accepting help usually has a basis in having far too much pride. Not seeking help also has a large basis in pride.

Pride often times makes you look like a fool. Look at the Turians. They are as prideful as they come and when have they ever looked competent? The first contact war made them look absolutely stupid and intolerant when they immediately attacked a group of humans opening Relay 314. Instead of contacting the Citadel or even investigating they opened fire. Why did they do this? As a matter of pride because the Turians believe that only the weak seek help. Saren went to investigate Sovereign by himself because he figured he could handle the situation by himself and save the Galaxy. He did this out of pride and believing that he could handle the whole situation alone. The Turian fleet at the Citadel was pretty badly damaged because of their pride. It was mainly the Turians that didn't want human ships guarding the Citadel. They believed that their massive fleet could handle anything that threatened the Citadel. Due to their pride they lost a lot of ships and had to be bailed out by the humans anyway.

So tell me how is your attitude any different than the Turians? It's pride, and even worse than that it is arrogance. Allies are supposed to band together for the greater good. Because if you have allies why ignore their assistance and cost more of your own peoples lives? Because even if you manage to take on the situation yourself lives of your own people will be lost. To me that doesn't spell honor and glory. That express bull headed bravado that gets no one anywhere. Sure maybe to you alone it feels great but people have died. They will never come back. All for what? A war that you consider a game of strength versus weakness. A little play at standing alone just to feel strong? That's foolish and arrogant and I hope you are never put in charge of anyone.

#39
RethenX

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why does everything have to turn into a WWII rant. **** its everywhere I go and its annoying as all hell. Allies won, hitlers bad, holocaust was horrible, and atomic bombs suck. There I have ended the rant, now lets talk mass effect!

#40
Gibb_Shepard

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Yes, humanity is supreme, all other races are inferior in every conceivable way. I will be disappointed if i'm not able to kill every single alien in ME3, it will be a failure in my eyes.

#41
Nashiktal

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No matter what the argument about Humanity, we are still a small species compared to any of the other races. Hell, i'm sure even the Volus and the Elcor outnumber humanity in terms of population and colonies right now.



Compared to the Turians, who have held a galactic empire for much longer than the humans. When humanity was first attacked in the First Contact War, we had our but handed to us by a small probing force. If the Turians had mobilized for war, we simply wouldnt have had the numbers, the resources, the technology to hold off the Turians for long. Humanity may have grown since then, but the Turians were expanding too.



Want some perspective? The Turians were granted full council membership in 900 CE, and they had the fleet to take on the genophageless krogans during the rebellions until the Salarians crippled the Krogan.



When did the Humans join in? 2157 CE. You think the Turians were sitting on their thumbs the whole time? They were building colonies, beefing up their military, expanding their influence, conquering smaller races to become client races. (Something i'm sure humans were dangerously close to becoming.)

#42
KingDan97

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didymos1120 wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...

Op is a real word 'vizard'...

Vizard is from Bleach, not a typo. I won't go into all the details but if you were implying he got it wrong he likely didn't.

Although if it was just a pun then I don't really have anything to say.


Yes its from Bleach


Actually, it's from the English language

Damn Didy, is there any obscure things you can't find?

#43
LadyJaneGrey

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Alright, assuming you're serious...

If you're looking for humanity to dominate the galaxy after this future big Earth battle you're anticipating because we humans are so awesome, it makes more sense to accept aid from alien races during the fight than to reject it.  If the Asari, Turians, and Salarians all pour money, troops, and ships into defending Earth, less human money, troops, and ships will be lost, leaving humanity in a better position to take gain power.

Earth and humanity in better shape + aliens hurting from helping us > Earth and humanity suffering even greater losses + aliens not suffering casualities at all.

P.S.  Not saying I see this as the only direction the game will play out or that it's what I want to see.

#44
Talthanar

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an army of warriors could easily kill a wizard as a couple soldiers could easily kill a biotic. eventually the biotic and wizard would need to rest their bodies. sure it's a battle of attrition but it can be done.

#45
azerSheppard

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Talthanar wrote...

an army of warriors could easily kill a wizard as a couple soldiers could easily kill a biotic. eventually the biotic and wizard would need to rest their bodies. sure it's a battle of attrition but it can be done.


Not sure what this is aboot:huh:
Tho it's a valid point. Just not sure where it fits in.

#46
CroGamer002

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Last Vizard wrote...

Take WW2 as an Example:


On the "Allies" side : primarily Great Britain, France, Soviet Union, USA, China, Canada. Poland, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India, the Netherlands, Czechslovakia, Belgium, Denmark and Norway also joined the allies. The Soviet Union was initially part of the Axis Powers but switched sides so did Finland and Romania. By 1945, almost the whole world were at war with the Axis.

On the "Axis" side: primarily Germany, Italy, and Japan. The axis also included minor powers such as Finland, Slovenia, Hungary, Manchkuo, Romania, Thailand, Persia and more.

~Italy also changed sides half way through the war.

If you know anything about WW2, then you would know it took the effort of most of the world to defeat Germany, Germany was strong, the alies were weak so they needed to band together... (Hitler was evil, but he made Germany the most powerful nation the world had ever seen)


Going off topic.

Slovenia was never independent until 1991 and it had autonomy in 1950s( can't remember exact year) in SFRY like other nations( plus Vojvodina and Kosovo) and you mixed it with Croatia and it was puppet state.

Also despite those numbers Hitler could have win WW2 if he:

- waited more time for war to build bigger navy
- invaded UK
- waited for spring to invade USSR
- defended instead of going offensive during Russian winter
- use Ukrainians and Russians who greeted invading German army as rescuers against communist regime instead of killing them
- not underestimate Yugoslavian and Greek partisans

#47
Last Vizard

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Talthanar wrote...

an army of warriors could easily kill a wizard as a couple soldiers could easily kill a biotic. eventually the biotic and wizard would need to rest their bodies. sure it's a battle of attrition but it can be done.


I'm talking about a Raymond E. Feist powerful mage, if you read even just the first couple of novels about Pug then you would change your mind.

#48
Last Vizard

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azerSheppard wrote...

If they are of the same group, individually, we can than assume that the "Council", in which also a human precides, is of the "same group".

If an individual :alien:, completely different from a second individual :mellow:, can be considered of the "same group", we can than assume that the collective of all individuals, possessing the same physical and mental qualities of individual :alien:, can be considered of the "same group" as the collective of all individuals, possessing the same physical and mental qualities of individual :mellow:.

Dunno if that helps.


Two different Alien races cannot reproduce together, Asari don't count because they only produce Asari, eventually they could peacefully breed out the other races due to the fact that they live for so long allowing them to take many different partners over their life time.  We are even seeing this today as the western culture is becoming the minority, my concern is that this would happen in the distant future of ME galaxy... all they would need is to get the majority vote on enough human worlds and its all over.

#49
azerSheppard

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Last Vizard wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

If they are of the same group, individually, we can than assume that the "Council", in which also a human precides, is of the "same group".

If an individual :alien:, completely different from a second individual :mellow:, can be considered of the "same group", we can than assume that the collective of all individuals, possessing the same physical and mental qualities of individual :alien:, can be considered of the "same group" as the collective of all individuals, possessing the same physical and mental qualities of individual :mellow:.

Dunno if that helps.


Two different Alien races cannot reproduce together, Asari don't count because they only produce Asari, eventually they could peacefully breed out the other races due to the fact that they live for so long allowing them to take many different partners over their life time.  We are even seeing this today as the western culture is becoming the minority, my concern is that this would happen in the distant future of ME galaxy... all they would need is to get the majority vote on enough human worlds and its all over.


Way to totally get BESIDE the point. I mean, where does the reproduction even fit in? What are you trying to imply?


Also the fact that you mention the parts I bolded out is very disturbing, as the only people who believe that Westerners are becoming minorities, are racist skinheads (which shouldn't even have the right to call themselves skinheads), people from the clan, and selfnamed Anarchistic survivalists.

All are of Naz1stic idealogy, aside from the clan, who generally hate due to "tradition".

I'm sory if i'm reading into your posts too much, but, as I said, very disturbing.

Modifié par azerSheppard, 01 janvier 2011 - 06:59 .


#50
omgodzilla

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I'd stop taking the Reapers seriously altogether if one race was enough to beat them...