176 réponses à ce sujet

[ADLegend21]

Kronner wrote...

It's not that she hates them, she refuses to see geth did nothing wrong in the Morning War. So what she was raised in that way, she has all the information needed to see the truth.

She is the only one yapping about Cerberus being the bad player in all this (I'll loan you a grenade etc.), no other squadmate does that, but without Cerberus she would be stuck on Freedom's progress or Haestrom.

Even the fact that she asks for help to complete the Pilgrimage is against quaraian standard.

Legion wanted to warn true geth, in order to prepare against potential quarian attack, and she wanted to shoot Legion. Has Legion ever threatened her in any way? No, despite the fact that she sent parts of his race to quarians for tests.

The big part of her hating the Geth is that she was raised that way, but even so she still works with Legion and (can) take him on the flotilla and defends him being there. It's obvious that the Quarians are preparing to go to war with the geth which is why Tali's asked to do what she did. Her father's an admiral and family is one of the highest quarian values.

Cerberus also attacked the flotilla so if Anyone had Gripe with Cerberus as much as a soul surivivor Shepard, it's Tali.

Quarian Pilgrimage is just finding somehting that can better the flotilla, the UNC Data does that so she asks since Shepard has it in her possesion. (Tali can be there when you get the Data so she has as much of a right to it as Shep does)

We still dont' know how Legion got it's hands on Tali's Omni-tool but that doesn't matter, the point is Tali didn't want her own people to know about that Data so why would she want the Geth to know about it? Legion Jeopardized that so she took action. She still can be persuaded to work along side Legion and puts her beliefs aside to do so (especially with bringing him to the Flotilla which should have basically gotten her a guilty verdict on her treason charges) Most of Tali's gripes are valid points.

[lovgreno]

I can't see the point of disliking someone that doesn't even exist other than in your imagination. It's just a game, so it's not worth the effort.



Some people like to have a superiour attitude to strangers, like Tali fans for example, as it's so easy to do that while hiding behing the anonymity of the net and it gives a false sense of self esteem based on generalisations about people you haven't even met.

[Bourne Endeavor]

yukidama wrote...

Avian005 wrote...

Am I the only one who likes my entire squad?

Nope. While I don't love all of them, there are things I like about each one.

I am the same. Tali is admittedly not my favorite and is actually relatively low on the list due to a preference of other characters but I certainly like her quite a bit.

Uhh.. Jonah wrote...

I don't get it... There was a hate thread about Jacob and no one was complaing about it. Why this one?

That was not a thread specifically designed to hate on Jacob. It was discussing that the hatred had seemingly dwindle. It subsequently opened a conversation about Jacob content. This thread served a solitary purpose. It hate Tali and talk about hatred of Tali. Therefore, it is not receiving positive responses.

Also...

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 01 janvier 2011 - 10:00 .

[RiptideX1090]

Hate threads aren't cool, period.



I mean, I'm not real big on some characters, but I don't go starting hate threads over it. And if I was going to complain about a character, I'd give solid, definable reasons why I didn't like their character.



I mean... Tali is pretty much the least hate-able person on your ship... I don't get why anyone would hate her. I could understand not wanting to romance her, everyone has different tastes... but there really aren't many reasons to actually hate her that I'm aware of.

[Lovestories]

Some of the points agaisnt anti support threads can be said about support threads.
Really I don't understand. I don't feel the need to jump into threads for characters I don't care much for just to tell those fans I don't like that character the same way I wouldn't feel the need to jump in a thread agaisnt my favourite character just to tell them how much I like that character. Might start a discussion but there's no need for offence.
I don't see the difference between a I dislike/I like thread it's for the people that want to enjoy it.

Modifié par Lovestories, 01 janvier 2011 - 11:18 .

[RiptideX1090]

Lovestories wrote...

Some of the points agaisnt anti support threads can be said about support threads.
Really I don't understand. I don't feel the need to jump into threads for characters I don't care much for just to tell those fans I don't like that character the same way I wouldn't feel the need to jump in a thread agaisnt my favourite character just to tell them how much I like that character. Might start a discussion but there's no need for offence.
I don't see the difference between a I dislike/I like thread it's for the people that want to enjoy it.

Mutual community support.

This is a forum. We form a community. Critically analyzing a character is fine, great even! However, people here like the game and it's characters. None of us would be here if we didn't. Pointing out a character's flaws is well and good, it helps the developers for the next game. However, when people create threads with the title insinuating they want to toss a character a lot of people like out of the airlock, it's obviously being purposefully inflammatory, non-constructive, and corosive to the overall integrity of the community in general.

In short? It's not nice to pick fights.

[Lovestories]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Lovestories wrote...

Some of the points agaisnt anti support threads can be said about support threads.
Really I don't understand. I don't feel the need to jump into threads for characters I don't care much for just to tell those fans I don't like that character the same way I wouldn't feel the need to jump in a thread agaisnt my favourite character just to tell them how much I like that character. Might start a discussion but there's no need for offence.
I don't see the difference between a I dislike/I like thread it's for the people that want to enjoy it.

Mutual community support.

This is a forum. We form a community. Critically analyzing a character is fine, great even! However, people here like the game and it's characters. None of us would be here if we didn't. Pointing out a character's flaws is well and good, it helps the developers for the next game. However, when people create threads with the title insinuating they want to toss a character a lot of people like out of the airlock, it's obviously being purposefully inflammatory, non-constructive, and corosive to the overall integrity of the community in general.

In short? It's not nice to pick fights.

This thread could have been titled better I'm not going to assume the OP intentionally wanted to offend anyone.
My point is not all antisupport threads have the intent to provoke and upset people, most people tend to assume they ar and will come in to drag it down instead of letting those that want to, get on with it.

Modifié par Lovestories, 01 janvier 2011 - 11:34 .

[Weiser_Cain]

Well... this marks the first time I'm not happy not to see Pacifien.

[RiptideX1090]

Lovestories wrote...

This thread could have been titled better I'm not going to assume the OP intentionally wanted to offend anyone.
My point is not all antisupport threads have the intent to provoke and upset people, most people tend to assume they ar and will come in to drag it down instead of letting those that want to, get on with it.

In theory, you are right.

In practice, however? That's not going to work. People, especially people around here, are far too easily offended. It's not right, but it's true.

And besides. If someone wants to discuss a character, why can't they do it in the support thread? Admittedly, I frequent the Tali and Garrus groups, they're my favorite characters. We've often discussed their character and writing flaws numerous times to no ill effect. There's no reason characters can't be discussed and analyzed in their own threads, in a positive manner.

Threads like this one are created merely to incite. Not to engage.

[Kronner]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

In practice, however? That's not going to work. People, especially people around here, are far too easily offended. It's not right, but it's true.

Who cares if someone is offended because SOME people don't like Tali? Can one be offended only by "I hate xyz thread" but not "I love xyz"? This political correctness all around these days is ridiculous. There are no insults, if someone doesn't like the topic, (s)he can leave. Simple as that.

[Kronner]

ADLegend21 wrote...

The big part of her hating the Geth is that she was raised that way, but even so she still works with Legion and (can) take him on the flotilla and defends him being there. It's obvious that the Quarians are preparing to go to war with the geth which is why Tali's asked to do what she did. Her father's an admiral and family is one of the highest quarian values.

So? She can do anything to help quarians, but Legion can't do the same for geth? She was raised by biased quarians, too bad, but she is now old enough to form her own opinions.

ADLegend21 wrote...
Cerberus also attacked the flotilla so if Anyone had Gripe with Cerberus as much as a soul surivivor Shepard, it's Tali.

Again, not seeing the big picture perhaps? Reapers vs. Ceberus' attack on one quarian ship? Hmmm..tough choice.

ADLegend21 wrote...
Quarian Pilgrimage is just finding somehting that can better the flotilla, the UNC Data does that so she asks since Shepard has it in her possesion. (Tali can be there when you get the Data so she has as much of a right to it as Shep does)

Isn't Pilgrimage supposed to prove the particular quarian is worthy of being a member of their flotilla? Find something to make it better for everyone...on their own? She has no right to the data, she is not leader of the group. If a General finds some data, he is not gonna share it with any Corporal he comes across.

ADLegend21 wrote...
We still dont' know how Legion got it's hands on Tali's Omni-tool but that doesn't matter, the point is Tali didn't want her own people to know about that Data so why would she want the Geth to know about it? Legion Jeopardized that so she took action. She still can be persuaded to work along side Legion and puts her beliefs aside to do so (especially with bringing him to the Flotilla which should have basically gotten her a guilty verdict on her treason charges) Most of Tali's gripes are valid points.

I disagree. Quarians screwed up and except for qwib-qwib and maybe Reegar they are too stupid to see the truth - geth are technologically superior, have more fighters. Quarians have no chance to win, but they still try instead of negotiating and admitting own mistake. If Tali is the best quarians have to offer then losing them as allies is no loss at all.

Modifié par Kronner, 01 janvier 2011 - 12:34 .

[Bugsie]

Kronner wrote...
Who cares if someone is offended because SOME people don't like Tali? Can one be offended only by "I hate xyz thread" but not "I love xyz"? This political correctness all around these days is ridiculous. There are no insults, if someone doesn't like the topic, (s)he can leave. Simple as that.

I'm not offended by people who dislike a character.  I'm offended by the behaviour of certain individuals in threads like this.  Call it 'political correctness' if you wish, I actually prefer to call it actually caring about a community and the way people treat each other -  If people want to be offensive its my right to call them on it.

[Irzhen]

RiptideX1090 wrote...
I mean... Tali is pretty much the least hate-able person on your ship... I don't get why anyone would hate her. I could understand not wanting to romance her, everyone has different tastes... but there really aren't many reasons to actually hate her that I'm aware of.

That's why I don't like her. It looks like she was designed to be the most likeable character in the squad. There isn't really anything to hate so to me she comes as too "perfect" (not in the real sense of the word). There are others I dislike because of this but she is the one I dislike more. But I only killed her on purpose on one playthough and that was because I had to choose between her and Legion.

Don't get why people are against hate threads, as long they are kept civil they aren't different than a love/support thread. If I don't wanna see someone say that a character is the best ever and the game would be total crap without him/her obviously I'm not gonna read a support thread for that character. Same applies to hate threads IMO. 

[CroGamer002]

She complained more then Jacob, Jack and Miranda?

[thq95]

www.youtube.com/watch

Tali deaths...

[goofyomnivore]

I can't hate Tali, because without her we would of never got to seen Admiral Loghain and Morrigan.

[PrinceLionheart]

Mesina2 wrote...

She complained more then Jacob, Jack and Miranda?

Technically yes more than Jacob. Wasn't the big issue with Jacob was that he didn't talk enough? 

[PrinceLionheart]

thq95 wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch

Tali deaths...

And this, is the problem with Hate Threads. They're a big target for flamebait like this.

[Dean_the_Young]

Irzhen wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...
I mean... Tali is pretty much the least hate-able person on your ship... I don't get why anyone would hate her. I could understand not wanting to romance her, everyone has different tastes... but there really aren't many reasons to actually hate her that I'm aware of.

That's why I don't like her. It looks like she was designed to be the most likeable character in the squad. There isn't really anything to hate so to me she comes as too "perfect" (not in the real sense of the word). There are others I dislike because of this but she is the one I dislike more. But I only killed her on purpose on one playthough and that was because I had to choose between her and Legion.

Don't get why people are against hate threads, as long they are kept civil they aren't different than a love/support thread. If I don't wanna see someone say that a character is the best ever and the game would be total crap without him/her obviously I'm not gonna read a support thread for that character. Same applies to hate threads IMO. 

In ME1, Tali was basically a Quarian codex reader with chicken legs and a shotgun. She didn't get much personal characterization, but when (a) had a hot voice, ( had an appealing silihout, and © actually had some personality flaws (naivite, unrepentent Quarian non-apologist). There wasn't much done with her, really, but she was interesting (in a foreign, exotic sort of way), and she wasn't shoehorned into Paragon or Renegade.


In ME2, Tali was redone to fit what they thought people liked. She (might have) kept the hot voice, her suit was re-designed to emphasize THIS ALIEN HAS BOOBS, and whatever ambiguity/mystery she had before got replaced by Quarian Paragon Princess Damsal In Distress who turned into a Geth moderate the moment Legion wasn't trolling her.


What happened to the girl who, while needing saving from punks with guns, threw grenades first and asked questions later? She hid in a bunker, and then hid behind a not-lawyer.

What happened to the girl who was constantly in the middle, as likely to advocate sacrificing the Council or killing the Rachni as saving it? The only positions we got were default anti-Cerberus Paragon-isms.

What happened to the Quarian golden child who had so much promise to the Quarians and held herself to highest standards for the sake of the Quarians? Well, she failed as a leader,  failed to expose war crimes, and could only get off the hook of a treason charge if Shepard helped her do that.

What happened to the young, inexperienced, somewhat innocent modest youth? She become 'jaded', and 'edgy', dropping such adult words as 'damn' like it was the F-bomb, while being half-defined by her forbidden love.

What happened to one of the few people in the universe who would stand up to Shepard and have a fight with him, unapologetic to the last about any sort of Quarian guilt in regards to the Geth, and never once showing any signs of hesitence or guilt towards them now? The person who always put the Quarians first? She rolled over for Shepard,  worked with Cerberus, became a Geth moderate, and would even forgive a Geth for trying to submit dangerous information that could imperil Quarians if Shepard would give a four-sentence cheer speach.

[Sandbox47]

Addai67 wrote...

Heh, people are so uptight. The Wynne hate thread is one of my all-time favorite threads on the DA board. But whatever... when in Rome.

Why would anyone hate Wynne?  What's there to hate about her? I mean, there's nothing to like about her either really, but she's not ****y or annoying...

[Xilizhra]

What happened to the girl who, while needing saving from punks with guns, threw grenades first and asked questions later? She hid in a bunker, and then hid behind a not-lawyer.

Quarians suck at ground combat and the geth force on Haestrom was a lot stronger than Fist's assassins. Also, Shepard only counseled her at Raan's suggestion.

What happened to the girl who was constantly in the middle, as likely to advocate sacrificing the Council or killing the Rachni as saving it? The only positions we got were default anti-Cerberus Paragon-isms.

Because Cerberus attacked the Migrant Fleet?

What happened to the Quarian golden child who had so much promise to the Quarians and held herself to highest standards for the sake of the Quarians? Well, she failed as a leader, failed to expose war crimes, and could only get off the hook of a treason charge if Shepard helped her do that.

Prazza screwed up on Freedom's Progress, and Haestrom was nobody's fault; the geth were simply too strong for the quarians to deal with. In addition, exposing said war crimes would have splintered the Migrant Fleet in addition to blacklisting Rael.

What happened to the young, inexperienced, somewhat innocent modest youth? She become 'jaded', and 'edgy', dropping such adult words as 'damn' like it was the F-bomb, while being half-defined by her forbidden love.

Blame ME2's failed increased edginess in general, perhaps? In any case, being Femshep, I didn't get the forbidden love part (which I don't really think half-defined her anyway).

What happened to one of the few people in the universe who would stand up to Shepard and have a fight with him, unapologetic to the last about any sort of Quarian guilt in regards to the Geth, and never once showing any signs of hesitence or guilt towards them now? The person who always put the Quarians first? She rolled over for Shepard, worked with Cerberus, became a Geth moderate, and would even forgive a Geth for trying to submit dangerous information that could imperil Quarians if Shepard would give a four-sentence cheer speach.

I imagine that she grew up some in the past two years, probably realizing that holding that dogmatically to one organization and one point of view on an enemy race was counterproductive. And Legion's information-sending was, well, understandable.

[Sandbox47]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Irzhen wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...
I mean... Tali is pretty much the least hate-able person on your ship... I don't get why anyone would hate her. I could understand not wanting to romance her, everyone has different tastes... but there really aren't many reasons to actually hate her that I'm aware of.

That's why I don't like her. It looks like she was designed to be the most likeable character in the squad. There isn't really anything to hate so to me she comes as too "perfect" (not in the real sense of the word). There are others I dislike because of this but she is the one I dislike more. But I only killed her on purpose on one playthough and that was because I had to choose between her and Legion.

Don't get why people are against hate threads, as long they are kept civil they aren't different than a love/support thread. If I don't wanna see someone say that a character is the best ever and the game would be total crap without him/her obviously I'm not gonna read a support thread for that character. Same applies to hate threads IMO. 

In ME1, Tali was basically a Quarian codex reader with chicken legs and a shotgun. She didn't get much personal characterization, but when (a) had a hot voice, ( had an appealing silihout, and © actually had some personality flaws (naivite, unrepentent Quarian non-apologist). There wasn't much done with her, really, but she was interesting (in a foreign, exotic sort of way), and she wasn't shoehorned into Paragon or Renegade.


In ME2, Tali was redone to fit what they thought people liked. She (might have) kept the hot voice, her suit was re-designed to emphasize THIS ALIEN HAS BOOBS, and whatever ambiguity/mystery she had before got replaced by Quarian Paragon Princess Damsal In Distress who turned into a Geth moderate the moment Legion wasn't trolling her.


What happened to the girl who, while needing saving from punks with guns, threw grenades first and asked questions later? She hid in a bunker, and then hid behind a not-lawyer.

What happened to the girl who was constantly in the middle, as likely to advocate sacrificing the Council or killing the Rachni as saving it? The only positions we got were default anti-Cerberus Paragon-isms.

What happened to the Quarian golden child who had so much promise to the Quarians and held herself to highest standards for the sake of the Quarians? Well, she failed as a leader,  failed to expose war crimes, and could only get off the hook of a treason charge if Shepard helped her do that.

What happened to the young, inexperienced, somewhat innocent modest youth? She become 'jaded', and 'edgy', dropping such adult words as 'damn' like it was the F-bomb, while being half-defined by her forbidden love.

What happened to one of the few people in the universe who would stand up to Shepard and have a fight with him, unapologetic to the last about any sort of Quarian guilt in regards to the Geth, and never once showing any signs of hesitence or guilt towards them now? The person who always put the Quarians first? She rolled over for Shepard,  worked with Cerberus, became a Geth moderate, and would even forgive a Geth for trying to submit dangerous information that could imperil Quarians if Shepard would give a four-sentence cheer speach.

What happened? She frinkin' grew up. You are a very naive person, you know that?

[Bourne Endeavor]

Kronner wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

to be Fair, in me1 Tali hadn't been outside the Flotilla and Tali complete's her pilgrimmage evne if Shepard doesn't give her the Geth data.In ME2 EVERYONE hates that you're working with cerberus but unlike the VS she and garrus suck it up andjoin you anyway, she works well with Gabby and Ken and gets along with everyoneon the ship. Her and Legion on the other hand are different. She was raised to beleive Geth were Evil creatures who were the scum of the galaxy and drove her people into Exile and it was backed up in ME1 when the geth worked with Sovereign, Legion's an exception to this and she's not prepared for it. Legion was sending the results of what Tali helped her father do and that would get the real Geth up in arms. if you use the Paragon charm option she lets Legion send unclassified Data to the true Geth in exchange for the weapons tests and even then she works with Legion (even brings him to the flotilla) the only Quarian who believes the Geth are victims is Quib quib and he's in the vast monirity of Quarians, so it's not tali's fault she was raised to hate them.

It's not that she hates them, she refuses to see geth did nothing wrong in the Morning War. So what she was raised in that way, she has all the information needed to see the truth. But no, thinking "I am the victim, help me" is much easier than admitting own mistake. Tali is the best example of whiney quarian.

She is the only one yapping about Cerberus being the bad player in all this (I'll loan you a grenade etc.), no other squadmate does that, but without Cerberus she would be stuck on Freedom's progress or Haestrom.

Even the fact that she asks for help to complete the Pilgrimage is against quaraian standard.

Legion wanted to warn true geth, in order to prepare against potential quarian attack, and she wanted to shoot Legion. Has Legion ever threatened her in any way? No, despite the fact that she sent parts of his race to quarians for tests.

When you have been taught throughout the entirety of your life to hold steadfast to a specific belief. Even irrefutable evidence to the contrary is difficult to fathom. Her narrow-minded perspective could have been believed accurate given the hostility of the Geth. It is not until Legion's introduction is the other side of the coin explored. Coincidently, Tali does display a slight change and even agrees with Legion should you bring him to the Flotilla. Why Bioware decided to trivialize this is one of the numerous perplexing oddities of ME2's 'plot.'

Furthermore, if you use the morality options during Tali and Legion's confrontation. She concedes to Legion's concerns and offers non-classified data. These are remarkably subtle but it indicates she is developing as a character. It would be contrived and unrealistic for her to disregard everything taught simply because she encountered Legion. The onus is now upon Mass Effect 3 and evidently, Bioware to run with these subtleties or sweep them into obscurity.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 01 janvier 2011 - 03:44 .

[CroGamer002]

I dislike Jacon a lot and I hate Morinth but do you see me posting "Jacob sucks" thread or "Jacob headshot" images or "All Jacob deaths" videos?

Modifié par Mesina2, 01 janvier 2011 - 03:51 .

[CroGamer002]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

She complained more then Jacob, Jack and Miranda?

Technically yes more than Jacob. Wasn't the big issue with Jacob was that he didn't talk enough? 

Here's a hint.
Try to romance Jacob.