92 réponses à ce sujet

[FOZ289]

The whole story?  Can someone explain why Mass Effect 2 mattered at all in the big picture? 
They introduced a new enemy, and you spend the whole game fighting them and them only.  By the end you're no better off against the Reapers.  If any mention of Reapers were removed, Mass Effect 2 would stand entirely alone.  But the thing is, this is the 2nd game and they only have 3 games (well, and a bunch of novels and comics) to tell the story, and you'd figure something would be added, and so this kind of stands out as a huge oversight.

I know people will try to defend it as saying it's developing characters, but how does that justify making a 20 hour long sidestory as the 2nd part of a trilogy?  Even if Mass Effect 3 somehow finds a way to give an actual point to everything in the 2nd game, it doesn't stop the plot from being fairly unsatisfying.

[Sidac]

To find out why colonies are going poof?

[Fiery Phoenix]

Think of ME2's story as filler (at least for now), and its 90-minute bridging DLC (aka LOTSB) to be the actual version of ME2 in terms of story.

[StowyMcStowstow]

Were colonies going poof during Mass Effect 1? And I think the OP is correct. If you take out any reference to Cerberus, the Reapers or the Protheans, then you would have no idea the game was related to Mass Effect. Now that i think about it, I'm not entirely sure what the point of ME2 was... It kinda explored the fate of the Protheans, but the Collectors are generally superfluous in that they have no bearing on anything. They were created simply to give ME2 an antagonist because the Reapers aren't here yet.

[magelet]

Because video games are fun.

[dgcatanisiri]

Granted, ME3 might create a better impression of the game, but I think that ME2 suffers from bridge syndrome, where there's a beginning and an end to the story, but the ending is not exactly well formed.

Though I would also offer the idea that it is used to create a reasoning to set the Reapers against Earth to start with, as opposed to having them go after another Citadel race - Shepard, and by extension, humanity, has brought the eyes of the Reapers on them. It generates conflict for ME3 in that the Reapers are targeting solely Earth to begin with, which means that the other races can say 'not our problem' until it's too late for them.

[Sidac]

StowyMcStowstow wrote...

Were colonies going poof during Mass Effect 1? And I think the OP is correct. If you take out any reference to Cerberus, the Reapers or the Protheans, then you would have no idea the game was related to Mass Effect. Now that i think about it, I'm not entirely sure what the point of ME2 was... It kinda explored the fate of the Protheans, but the Collectors are generally superfluous in that they have no bearing on anything. They were created simply to give ME2 an antagonist because the Reapers aren't here yet.

Colonies wern't going poof in ME1 due to the fact that the reapers didn't start with their backup plan. I don't know about you but starting with the backup plan seems pretty messed up. Still don't understand how people think that starting with a backup plan is the best idea.

If plan A fails goto plan B. If B fails goto C.

If your car runs out of gas are you going to take it to the repair shop right away? Or are you going to figure out a way to get it to work. Its kinda weak but same idea.

Don't know why most people lack the ability to understand that.

Modifié par Sidac, 01 janvier 2011 - 05:50 .

[PseudoEthnic]

Until Mass Effect 3 comes out, I would wait before saying that Mass Effect 2 was pointless in terms of story and characters.

[Praetor Knight]

Sidac wrote...

Don't know why most people lack the ability to understand that.

IMHO, people are not drawing on the same analogy, they are approaching it from different angles and thought structures.

Not to mention the reapers are so "alien"

[FOZ289]

Sidac wrote...

StowyMcStowstow wrote...

Were colonies going poof during Mass Effect 1? And I think the OP is correct. If you take out any reference to Cerberus, the Reapers or the Protheans, then you would have no idea the game was related to Mass Effect. Now that i think about it, I'm not entirely sure what the point of ME2 was... It kinda explored the fate of the Protheans, but the Collectors are generally superfluous in that they have no bearing on anything. They were created simply to give ME2 an antagonist because the Reapers aren't here yet.

Colonies wern't going poof in ME1 due to the fact that the reapers didn't start with their backup plan. I don't know about you but starting with the backup plan seems pretty messed up. Still don't understand how people think that starting with a backup plan is the best idea.

If plan A fails goto plan B. If B fails goto C.

If your car runs out of gas are you going to take it to the repair shop right away? Or are you going to figure out a way to get it to work. Its kinda weak but same idea.

Don't know why most people lack the ability to understand that.

Wasn't Sovereign already their backup plan?  And so building a new Reaper by controlling the Collectors is actually Plan C?

[Nightwriter]

Sidac wrote...

Colonies wern't going poof in ME1 due to the fact that the reapers didn't start with their backup plan. I don't know about you but starting with the backup plan seems pretty messed up. Still don't understand how people think that starting with a backup plan is the best idea.

If plan A fails goto plan B. If B fails goto C.

If your car runs out of gas are you going to take it to the repair shop right away? Or are you going to figure out a way to get it to work. Its kinda weak but same idea.

Don't know why most people lack the ability to understand that.

But what if combining the resources of both plan A and plan B would result in mission success?

This means, what if Sovereign had thrown both the geth and the Collectors at the problem?

[Sidac]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

IMHO, people are not drawing on the same analogy, they are approaching it from different angles and thought structures.
Not to mention the reapers are so "alien"

Whether or not they are using the same analogy why make an argument of "why didn't they do that in the first place?" when they didn't plan on that happening due to it working for millions of years? Every time up until the protheans, they wiped out races cleanly. Protheans destroyed any records of the archive so reapers wont find out. Reapers dont destroy it leaving protheans alive to make the conduit. Reapers never got hint of the conduit so they never prepared for it. they thought it would be just like usual.

If it aint broke don't fix it. The reapers thought it would be business as usual so they dont start out this time with the backup plan. 

For those that skip diolouge in game, go back and LISTEN to what vigil has to say.

Edit: I was wrong. Soverign's action was a semi-backup plan. Again though, how can you plan on fighting something you have no knowledge about. Soverign didn't know what the conduit was until the end. You have the geth to back you up but the collectors have 1 ship and they wern't a backup plan until after your initial backup plan failed. Why put the cooks on the line to fight when you already have the superior force?

Modifié par Sidac, 01 janvier 2011 - 06:33 .

[Sidac]

Nightwriter wrote...

But what if combining the resources of both plan A and plan B would result in mission success?

This means, what if Sovereign had thrown both the geth and the Collectors at the problem?

can read what i just wrote but if things are working just like they should for millions of years, why alter it now? You have no knowledge of the conduit so you cant expect that there would be an ace in the hole for the current races. As far as the reapers know the only tech that the current races have is the same tech that the reapers have allowed in past cycles.

Modifié par Sidac, 01 janvier 2011 - 06:19 .

[Nightwriter]

I'm confused. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"? But it was broke. Sovereign was unable to summon the Reapers from dark space. Therefore, you would think he would call upon all his available resources to try and fix the problem. The Collectors' paralyzing seeker swarms could've been invaluable in any number of situations.

[adam_grif]

ME2 was a very underwhelming middle act, and did not advance the main story of the series very much at all. All revelations (Protheans are Collectors! Reapers use us to reproduce!) were the kind of thing that could have been gotten out of the way in under ten minutes, or easily squeezed into the third game if they so chose without negatively impacting the pacing of the series. The entire game to go along with it was unnecessarily stretched out.



The first game ended with the Reapers coming, and the second game ended with the Reapers coming. The universe is (slightly) more prepared now, and there are one or two more factions that owe Shepard. Shepard also built the team he'll probably take into the third game. But in terms of story, nothing much. The real tragedy is that all of the things ME2 did could easily have been done whilst also having a real, meaty plot to the game. Unfortunately it didn't have such a thing.

[Nashiktal]

Considering their track record with killable characters, I dont find the character development factor (not much of one) to be valid at all. Why make a game all about the characters, when by Bioware's record, just reduce them to cameo's in the sequel if they survive at all? Why make the whole damn focus of the game a series of side missions?



Yes ME3 isnt out yet, and we dont know what they do, but the evidence we have doesnt paint a pretty picture. I really want to be wrong on this one.

[Praetor Knight]

Sidac wrote...

Whether or not they are using the same analogy why make an argument of "why didn't they do that in the first place?" when they didn't plan on that happening due to it working for millions of years? Every time up until the protheans, they wiped out races cleanly. Protheans destroyed any records of the archive so reapers wont find out. Reapers dont destroy it leaving protheans alive to make the conduit. Reapers never got hint of the conduit so they never prepared for it. they thought it would be just like usual.

If it aint broke don't fix it. The reapers thought it would be business as usual so they dont start out this time with the backup plan.

Soverign wasnt the backup plan. it was the key to starting the cycle.

Just to add, here's my current understanding of what's happened so far in the ME universe.

I imagine Harby was the reaper who could have failed with the "Protheans" (according to the failed Prothean Reaper theory) and then made them into the Collectors (essentially, Harby got stuck with its creations). Then the "Prothean" Scientists awake, leave Ilos and reprogram the Keepers' signal on the Citadel.

Then I assume that the Rachni Wars was the reaper's first attempt to gain control of the Citadel, after the Citadel failed to respond, so I assume that some reaper likely failed there because of the Krogan intervention.

Then Sovereign makes contact with the Geth, runs into Saren, who had his own motives to control the Geth, who then gets severely wounded. So with Sovery & Co cybernetically piecing Saren back together, he ends up working for them (thus the theory of Shep & Saren being two sides of the same coin, personally don't have an opinion on that yet).

ME happens and Sovery fails epically to Shep. And then at the start of ME2, Harby gets mad and starts attacking any ship in the Amada System (maybe it was there doing some research on the planet Eingana, but that's my speculation).

Then the rest of ME2 happens.

*********************************************

I assumed, like you mentioned, that the reapers never had to deal with so many issues in such a short span of time.

But then I wondered about how much pressure those reapers are dealing with from their recent epic failures, and with the rest of the reapers waiting where ever they are waiting.

So, IMHO, the plans that we know about are out of desperation, and the Reapers end up looking like the Stooges, when they fail.

***********************************************

So I guess that's why we wonder, what were the reapers thinking? Hey, I've got a better idea!
And then people wonder what was the point of ME2.

IMHO, ME2's story was fine, at lot is told in the game, but I can relate to other forumites who wanted more out of ME2, cuz I often find myself wanting more too.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Nightwriter wrote...



I'm confused. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"? But it was broke. Sovereign was unable to summon the Reapers from dark space. Therefore, you would think he would call upon all his available resources to try and fix the problem. The Collectors' paralyzing seeker swarms could've been invaluable in any number of situations.

Considering this, it is rather amusing. Sovereign could have rallied the Collectors inside because their meteor of a vessel is a tad conspicuous and upon invading the Citadel. Let loose the Seeker Swarms, paralyzing everyone, including Shepard. Saren can then fumble about on the main control, Sovereign will do his little "open sesame" to Dark Space while everyone watches. The Reapers do their... reaping and voila. Victory.



Sovereign just... sort of forgot about that. Probably best he died because I can imagine his Reaper friends are not wholly impressed with him.

[adam_grif]

My favorite alternate scenario involves Saren just walking up to the council, saying he has something important to tell them, and then walks two feet to the left and uploads the reaper file to the console, and then the Reapers warp in and kill everything as usual.

[Sidac]

Nightwriter wrote...

I'm confused. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"? But it was broke. Sovereign was unable to summon the Reapers from dark space. Therefore, you would think he would call upon all his available resources to try and fix the problem. The Collectors' paralyzing seeker swarms could've been invaluable in any number of situations.

If it aint broke dont fix it refers to the many times that they succeeded int he past million years. When it was broken, they did fix it. They went to hunt down the reasons why it was broken. Leading Saren to find and use the conduit.

While that would be true, the collectors could offer 1 ship. 

As stated by TIM in ME2:

"They peropdically travel to the Terminus Systems, looking to gather seemingly unimportant items or specimens. Usually in exchange for their technology"

So, not much of a "fighting" force. Seeker swarms have only been shown to be useful on planets or on the collector space station. Unless I missed them being discribed as mechanical, they too seem to be organic which means you cant just drive up to the citadel and drop them off close by to travel through the vacuum of space. Wings wouldn't help. Plus, Kaidan / Ashely makes one go squish when they step on one on Horizon. So far the citadel has been shown to be a closed environment. Where would they enter from? While I guess crashing onto the citadel and dropping the swarms would help, would you risk gambling everything to fight a threat you have yet encountered? Or do you leave a force back incase of failure? This would allow continued surveillance of your enemy. If you lose everything, your fighting blind yet again, you couldn't adapt. We can't apply what we know from playing ME2 to the ME1 time frame.

edit: hookit on fonix rilly werkit fir mee!
edit 2: well, im off to dreamland. If the thread is alive when i wake up ill be up for some more healthy gentlemanly debate

Modifié par Sidac, 01 janvier 2011 - 07:21 .

[AlanC9]

Well, Sovereign couldn't use the seeker swarms more than a couple of times and expect to get away with it. The first scientist who actually looked into the problem solved it pretty quick.

[Zulu_DFA]

This theory explains it all:

The Reapers are actually still on their Plan A. It has been only partially derailed, when Shepard killed the Collectors (although the point of their operation is still unclear). In ME1 Shepard stopped nothing. Sovereign was either a "rogue" Reaper, which Harbinger & Co were happy to get rid of, or it succeded in its mission, the exact nature of which is still unknown to us. But it's clear that the Citadel was not the means of the Reapers' recall to the Milky Way (see ME3 teaser) and the Omega (which is revealed in Retribution to have been built by the Reapers) probably has a lot more to do with the cycle of extinction than the Citadel (as hinted at by the Mad Prophet in ME2).

So yeah, ME2 is very important storywise. It is sort of at odds with ME1, but that's only because ME1 was a dead end, not ME2.

There is a fact that adds to the confusion: the quality of writing dropped sharply in ME2 as the general focus of the game shifted from story telling to the 3D-arcade gameplay, but that's not exactly Mac Walters' fault.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 janvier 2011 - 07:12 .

[SSV Enterprise]

In the big picture (spoilers ahoy):

--We know the Reapers are particularly interested in humanity.
--We know at least part of why the Reapers wipe out the galaxy every 50,000 years.
--We know that the Protheans weren't truly wiped out, but were adapted.
--We know that Sovereign was responsible for the rachni's madness, and that the new rachni are currently preparing to fight the Reapers (if you spared the queen, that is)
--If Wrex is alive, he is uniting the krogan.
--Mordin may come up with a genophage cure.
--We know that only a small fraction of the geth actually supported Sovereign.  The geth "Heretics" have been defeated, and an alliance with the geth may be possible.
--...on the other hand, a quarian invasion of geth space may happen soon.  The quarians may even re-subjugate the geth.
--You possibly have the support of Cerberus
--You possibly do not have the support of the Council and the Alliance.
--You may be able to use the Reapers' own technology against them.

That was off the top of my head.  I think that's a pretty sizeable addition to the big picture.

[didymos1120]

StowyMcStowstow wrote...
If you take out any reference to Cerberus, the Reapers or the Protheans, then you would have no idea the game was related to Mass Effect.

Yes, well that same trick would work on ME1, the ME novels, and the ME comics. It'd also work on, well, any piece of fiction ever. I.e., you've discovered a lovely tautology: if you rewrite something, it's different.

Modifié par didymos1120, 01 janvier 2011 - 07:46 .

[DarthCaine]

What was the point of ME1 ?