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[Jedi Master of Orion]

It took me a wihle to get used to, but I enjoy Dragon Age's style of not explaining everything perfectly, and just relating the stories that each people have about things. It got me thinking recently and I realized that should not some things be potentially verifiable?

While replaying the Mage Tower level I read the codex peices I found talking about the Black City. Apparently It is  commonly accepted that the Black City exists, because apparnetly the Codex said it's visible from everywhere in the fade.  What I would presumae is not certian though is whether the Black City was in fact once the seat of the Maker. The Chantry's version of history is that the Darkspawn first appared after the Tevinter mages breached the Golden City.

But the recorded history of Thedas goes back to the First Blight and even before that, so surely shouldn't someone be able to have documanted whether back then the Black City was once a Golden City? I can't imagine mages did not enter the fade and document its feautres back then. So had anyone actually seen the Golden City? Surely there should be mention of one if there was a Golden City . And there should still be a mention if it was also a Black City back then too. So wouldn't mages' records from back then be a huge peice of evidence either for or against the Chantry's story of of events? Maybe not conclusively, but it's be a pretty big deal if history recorded a major landmark changed radically with the arrival of the Blight.

Is there any answer to this in the lore? Surely somebody would have looked into it in the in-universe world.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 01 janvier 2011 - 07:51 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

No, there is not. We only have the Chantry's full version. The only other two groups that might be able to answer this would be the Dalish or the Tevinter. The Tevinter are a Chantry nation as well, though it is a very different Chantry. Since they have existed uninterrupted for thousands of years, and have probably kept records,they would be the best source. The Dalish might have something, though most of their ancient lore and history have been lost, so they are less likely to have answers. The dwarves would probably not know, since they have no way to access the Fade unless forced.



But in DAO, we only have the Chantry's version available, as other outside information might be rejected or discarded. We might learn more in future titles, like DA2, if we run into more Tevinter/Ancient elven infor and lore.

[Reika]

I believe it's been 1200 years since the First Blight, a lot can be lost during that time. Especially considering how long the first two Blights were, and in between was Andraste's March on the Tevinter Empire, assorted wars between the various nations and the Exalted March on the Dales.



And it's been repeatedly said that it's extremely dangerous for mages to try to approach the Black City, so the City itself can't be investigated. Or it could be, but the cost is higher than anyone wants to pay.



I suspect though, eventually that price will have to be paid since I have a feeling that's where the only solution to ending the darkspawn will be.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

There is a definite connection between the darkspawn taint and the black city. Both the Dalish origin and Avernus strongly hint at this. The Chantry's version could be somewhat right, in terms of the darkspawn coming from Tevinter mgisters who entered the city and became tainted. Whether or not it was where the Maker ruled from is subjective, as is the existance of the Maker.



but there's definitely a connection.

[Reika]

True, and I didn't mean to imply that there wasn't. Just that I suspect it's going to take a trip to the Black City to see what can be truly learned.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I theorized that there is also a possible connection vis a vis symbols between Darkspawn and Tevinter. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 janvier 2011 - 07:55 .

[Reika]

Well, if the darkspawn are from corrupted Tevinter magisters, it certainly makes sense.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Thanks for the link. Can't believe I missed that thread.



The Black City seems like it is alien to the fade, as it is the only fixed point in a realm that is forever shifting. And the native denizens of the fade, including the most powerful of demons, avoid it like the plague. Avernus states that demons are repulsed and somewhat frightened of the taint, further linking it to the Black City.

[Reika]

I'm actually surprised the fade spirits haven't been able to give more information about the Black City. Unless whatever happened to it caused that much trauma to them?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I think they subconciously or wilfully ignore it, since it is extremely disturbing to them. And spirits lack the sort of inititve/ motivation to investigate it, so the idea of doing so would simply not occur to them. They simply avoid it, and put it out of their minds.

[TJPags]

Always take anything a religion tells you with a grain of salt or 3 . . .dozen. 

A religion, like any other organized body, has an agenda, and will shape what they say and how they say it to further that agenda.

That there is a Black City we know for fact.  That is has something to do with Darkspawn is likely, since the Elves also indicate this.  What that connection is, we have at this point only the Chantry's story to go by - and let's face it, the Chantry wants to control mages.  How better than to tell everyone that Mages, in their lust for power, corrupted the Maker's purity and brought possible ruin to us all?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

TJPags wrote...

Always take anything a religion tells you with a grain of salt or 3 . . .dozen. 

A religion, like any other organized body, has an agenda, and will shape what they say and how they say it to further that agenda.

That there is a Black City we know for fact.  That is has something to do with Darkspawn is likely, since the Elves also indicate this.  What that connection is, we have at this point only the Chantry's story to go by - and let's face it, the Chantry wants to control mages.  How better than to tell everyone that Mages, in their lust for power, corrupted the Maker's purity and brought possible ruin to us all?

It's certainly possible, yes, but until we have relevant histories to compare it to, we simply don't know for certain, and given possible cooborating evidence, it's likely the Chantry could be at least partially correct on this one.

[Reika]

Well, I'm inclined to believe the Tevinters did something since they don't have the most sterling reputation amongst, well, nearly everyone. Not just the elves or the Orlesian Chantry. I get the feeling only the dwarves were indifferent, but they don't really bother themselves with the surface except for trade. And they're inclined to trade with anyone, given some of the codex entries in Awakening.

[TJPags]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Always take anything a religion tells you with a grain of salt or 3 . . .dozen. 

A religion, like any other organized body, has an agenda, and will shape what they say and how they say it to further that agenda.

That there is a Black City we know for fact.  That is has something to do with Darkspawn is likely, since the Elves also indicate this.  What that connection is, we have at this point only the Chantry's story to go by - and let's face it, the Chantry wants to control mages.  How better than to tell everyone that Mages, in their lust for power, corrupted the Maker's purity and brought possible ruin to us all?

It's certainly possible, yes, but until we have relevant histories to compare it to, we simply don't know for certain, and given possible cooborating evidence, it's likely the Chantry could be at least partially correct on this one.

I'm a cynic, especially when it comes to religion.  I'll give them partially correct, as in, there's some truth in the background of what they say.  That's about all I'll give them. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

TJPags wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Always take anything a religion tells you with a grain of salt or 3 . . .dozen. 

A religion, like any other organized body, has an agenda, and will shape what they say and how they say it to further that agenda.

That there is a Black City we know for fact.  That is has something to do with Darkspawn is likely, since the Elves also indicate this.  What that connection is, we have at this point only the Chantry's story to go by - and let's face it, the Chantry wants to control mages.  How better than to tell everyone that Mages, in their lust for power, corrupted the Maker's purity and brought possible ruin to us all?

It's certainly possible, yes, but until we have relevant histories to compare it to, we simply don't know for certain, and given possible cooborating evidence, it's likely the Chantry could be at least partially correct on this one.

I'm a cynic, especially when it comes to religion.  I'll give them partially correct, as in, there's some truth in the background of what they say.  That's about all I'll give them. 

I find that if a source is agreed with by independant or opposing sources, it is most likely going to be truth, at least in areas where differing sources agree on certain points.

While the Golden City/Maker explaination is pretty much pure Chantry lore, multiple sources seem to agree on the link between darkspawn/taint/Black City, so I am inclined to accept this as most likey true. And there is also agreement between the Chantry and Dalish, as well as the Tevinter themselves, that a group of Tevinter Mages attempted to enter it with disasterous results.  As far as the transformation from Golden City to Black City, this is what the OP was wondering about. In that, we simply don't have anything but Chantry Lore to go by. Hopefully, we might get more information and possible clarification of DA2, since we will be encountering many people/cultures not dominated by the Orlesian Chantry.

[Glorfindel709]

The quote from the Canticle of Theronides at the begining of the game is one of my favorites in the game. It puts such an ominous tone to the game, and really sets the mood for the ideas of corruption and destruction of all that is good in the world.



That being said - I didnt really buy the Chantry version of the story, simply because it seemed a convenient way for them to further spread that the mages are greedy evil and deserve to be locked up and hated by all of society for pissing off the Maker

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

According to Gaider, the Tevinter magisters 'knew' the Golden City was the seat of the Maker when they attempted to breach it.



That's pretty much all I can supply

[Reika]

I know we should be taking Gaider's word for stuff...but there's been enough inconsistencies, that I wonder.

[blothulfur]

Speaking of the intro for origins why does the stream of blood from the magisters ritual lead to a dead tree, the symbol found on flemeths black grimoire.

Seems rather important but maybe just coincidence.

[KnightofPhoenix]

blothulfur wrote...

Speaking of the intro for origins why does the stream of blood from the magisters ritual lead to a dead tree, the symbol found on flemeths black grimoire.
Seems rather important but maybe just coincidence.

The Black city also looks like a tree and in the Fade, the statue where you get the codex "The black city" is a statue of a tree.
Yggdrasil?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 janvier 2011 - 12:54 .

[Reika]

Could be Yggdrasil, there's been plenty of Tree of Life symbols in a lot of cultures. The dead tree is often used a symbol for loss,of life and other things.

[blothulfur]

Where Odin sacrificed himself to himself hanging wounded for nine days and nights so that he might gain wisdom.

That would hint at some major symbolism especially since we now have a character named after the allfathers unending greed and hunger for power (fenris) in DA2.

[Reika]

Actually, Fenris was the great wolf that was going to end Odin's life in Ragnaroc.

[blothulfur]

Yes it was but norse mythology is ripe with symbolism, when thor slew jormungandr the personification of time it meant that his deeds would be known for all time and thus he had conquered time.

Another example is the creation myth of the cow licking the shape of the first giant from the ice, the cow represents fertility and life as it does in most religions.

[Reika]

Another thought I had is the Kabbalah, which is sometimes called a Tree, it represents the more mystical side of the Jewish faith. A corrupted/dead tree could represent knowledge corrupted by the magisters in their attempt to understand (possibly supplant) a god.

Modifié par Reika, 02 janvier 2011 - 01:31 .