263 réponses à ce sujet

[Raygereio]

crimzontearz wrote...

Jonp382 wrote...
What do you mean by grinding?

progression. Going from level 1 upwards?

Small correction, regular level progression is not really grinding.
Grinding for those of you who don't know is in fancy terms "engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain 'fat lootz' and/or 'xps'".
In other words, it's for instance playing whack-a-mole with respawning monsters in order to gain a couple of levels. In a good designed game it's wholly optional and completely outside the regular level progression. A poorly designed game intergrates into the overall level progression and would force you to level grind in order to become strong enough to beat the final boss.

If you can call the regular level progression in a game grinding, then you need to ask yourself why the hell you're playing that ****ty game.

[Chaia]

I also agree with everything that Felfenix said.

I'm hopeing that DA2 will have NG+ as one of things I liked about ME2 is that partly because Shepard already had all of his abilties layed out so I didn't have to spend time playing about with the points again, and mostly because he felt like he could kick the Collectors all the way to the Citadeal and back stright from the beginning (and putting the game onto easy mode isn't the same), and besides when thats locked down you can focus on the story more then having to worry about "oh is he high enouth level to go there yet?" which is what I want in a story driven game like Dragon Age.

And as many people have pointed out, you don't have to use the NG+ feature, just like in DAO you didn't have to play as a female, or male, or as a dwarf, or elf, or human or even romance any of your companions it was all up to you, if you don't want to use the NG+ feature (if the game has it) then fine, when you complete the game just create a new character.

Modifié par Chaia, 02 janvier 2011 - 11:55 .

[Maria Caliban]

There's the gamer specific meaning of 'grinding' and then the more common 'grind' that it's derived from. As in, 'the daily grind.'

Both of them indicate going through something you find boring, repetitive, or unpleasant.

For me, there's no World of Warcraft type level grinding in DA:O, but the Deep Roads is definitely a grind, as is Ostigar. I don't enjoy those sections and see them as roadblocks I have to press through to get to more worthwhile content.

Alternatively, level grinding in WoW is fun for me. I rarely get bored until I hit the top level.

[Raygereio]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Alternatively, level grinding in WoW is fun for me. I rarely get bored until I hit the top level.

Oh, grinding isn't inherently bad. If the gameplay, or the actual act griding just isn't fun (pushing the same button over and over again, or something), then there's no excusing it. But if the gameplay is still solid then you can easily excuse the dev's for putting some repetitive task in the game.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Playing a game a second(+) time at the max level would feel more of a grind to me than starting over at level 1. There is no incentive to me to play if I'm already wearing the best equipment and have all the skills I had at the end of the last game.



I did that for mass effect to get a level 60 character. It wasnt fun, it was just a grind I had to do to reach my goal (level 60 for ME2 import).



Replaying DAO I can choose different skills, especially as a Mage, and see how they play out. That's more fun for me than playing the same skill set I chose last time.

[nightcobra]

Shinian2 wrote...

Playing a game a second(+) time at the max level would feel more of a grind to me than starting over at level 1. There is no incentive to me to play if I'm already wearing the best equipment and have all the skills I had at the end of the last game.

I did that for mass effect to get a level 60 character. It wasnt fun, it was just a grind I had to do to reach my goal (level 60 for ME2 import).

Replaying DAO I can choose different skills, especially as a Mage, and see how they play out. That's more fun for me than playing the same skill set I chose last time.

to me although i can have fun starting over again from the start, i enjoy more starting each subsequent playthrough with the previous playthrough level and equipment. kinda of a thing i picked up with chrono trigger and other games which had NG+.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

nightcobra8928 wrote...


to me although i can have fun starting over again from the start, i enjoy more starting each subsequent playthrough with the previous playthrough level and equipment. kinda of a thing i picked up with chrono trigger and other games which had NG+.

It's a bit immersion breaking to me. Start as a dirt poor Dwarf Commoner, wearing expensive armour, a starmetal sword and enough money to buy out Behrat? And then you play through a quest and earn a fabulous unique item.. Oh another one of those, I'll add it to my collection..

[Felfenix]

Shinian2 wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...


to me although i can have fun starting over again from the start, i enjoy more starting each subsequent playthrough with the previous playthrough level and equipment. kinda of a thing i picked up with chrono trigger and other games which had NG+.

It's a bit immersion breaking to me. Start as a dirt poor Dwarf Commoner, wearing expensive armour, a starmetal sword and enough money to buy out Behrat? And then you play through a quest and earn a fabulous unique item.. Oh another one of those, I'll add it to my collection..

It's kind of like owning DLC. That Blood Dragon armor sure is great, huh? It's a good thing, just like DLC, that NG+ would be optional, so it's not like it would hurt your immersion. I find the fact that my mage, who's been raised by the circle all her life, and is so worthy of being drafted into the Gray Wardens, only knows one magic spell, and is generally completely inept at magic, to be just as silly. Not to mention, on her own, with no real training or studying, suddenly learns a dozen more dramatically different spells unlike anything else she knows, simply from killing a couple wolves and random things. Apparently she should have spent a couple hours killing wolves, instead of a lifetime at the tower "learning" magic. lolvideogames

Modifié par Felfenix, 02 janvier 2011 - 01:32 .

[thomaswheeler94]

YoziMaiden, sorry, I should've been clearer - so long as they provide the argument of same-sex relationships always being available so long as the love interest feature remains optional, they could have the same policy with NG+ always being available so long as the feature was optional.



Magnum Opus, good point with the bonus items/power-ups in Origins and Mass Effect - fldifn't think about those... The only thing I could suggest for that is either selling the items (in Origins) as soon as you can, or if Bioware implemented some sort of, "Do you want to play NG+ mode?" before starting a new game, which would also extend to the items/power-ups gained through DLC or achievements... Do you think that would be a good, possible, idea?

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Felfenix wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...


to me although i can have fun starting over again from the start, i enjoy more starting each subsequent playthrough with the previous playthrough level and equipment. kinda of a thing i picked up with chrono trigger and other games which had NG+.

It's a bit immersion breaking to me. Start as a dirt poor Dwarf Commoner, wearing expensive armour, a starmetal sword and enough money to buy out Behrat? And then you play through a quest and earn a fabulous unique item.. Oh another one of those, I'll add it to my collection..

It's kind of like owning DLC. That Blood Dragon armor sure is great, huh? It's a good thing, just like DLC, that NG+ would be optional, so it's not like it would hurt your immersion. I find the fact that my mage, who's been raised by the circle all her life, and is so worthy of being drafted into the Gray Wardens, only knows one magic spell, and is generally completely inept at magic, to be just as silly. Not to mention, on her own, with no real training or studying, suddenly learns a dozen more dramatically different spells unlike anything else she knows, simply from killing a couple wolves and random things. Apparently she should have spent a couple hours killing wolves, instead of a lifetime at the tower "learning" magic. lolvideogames

Obviously it's not immersion breaking if I don't play it.. That's not what Im talking about. I'm saying when I DO play it its immersion breaking [for me]. I'm not saying it shouldnt exist, just expressing my personal opinion on it.
 
You can't wear blood dragon armour at level 1. If you could it would damage the game balance at low levels.

I agree to dsome extent on the mage example. Especially Wynne. She is a senior mage, one of the best in the circle but she is only level 8 when you recruit her? The PC is somewhat underdstandable considering you jsut went through your joining harrowing.

Modifié par Shinian2, 02 janvier 2011 - 03:00 .

[Magnum Opus]

thomaswheeler94 wrote...
The only thing I could suggest for that is either selling the items (in Origins) as soon as you can, or if Bioware implemented some sort of, "Do you want to play NG+ mode?" before starting a new game, which would also extend to the items/power-ups gained through DLC or achievements... Do you think that would be a good, possible, idea?

Sell off items wouldn't be one of my preferred solutions, no... for a few reasons. 

1. Excess gold.  The Reaper's Cudgel alone will net me an extra 300 gp... an obscene amount for any point in the game, never mind right off the bat.
2. The items still appear in a place where they've got no business appearing (in the inventory of a brand new character)
3. If the direction in which Bioware's design regarding inventory management is going holds true, it may not even be possible to sell off or destroy items once the game puts them there. 

But any suggestions I might make for the implementation of such a thing would be made from the perspective of one who doesn't see much value in NG+ features to begin with. 

I could suggest that achievement-derived bonuses only be applied to those characters that earned those achievements (rather than the players), but that would mean players that DO like to roll up a new character with NG+ content after they've beaten the game once would be up shhhhugar creek without a popcicle stick.  The current method of achievement-based bonuses suits those players far better than what I might propose. 

I could suggest that NG+ gameplay features be restricted  to new games where the player has imported a previous saved game or character; a new game with a new character would yield no such bonuses.  Again, though... same issue. Those that want it all unlocked after they've beaten the game once are screwed.



As far as toggles go... heh.  They're gonna hate you for sugesting that one, you realize that don't you? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]   Sure, I'd like to see a means by which I could prevent the game from granting me all sorts of extras that I don't particularly want without having to reinstall the game, or uninstall mods/DLC, or fiddle around with a social site account, but... there's a lot of content coming from external sources these days, with promo items and DLC and all the rest of it.  Coralling it all so that it's easy to disable could be a rather large task in itself.  Not at all certain that it'd be worth the effort.

[crimzontearz]

Raygereio wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Jonp382 wrote...
What do you mean by grinding?

progression. Going from level 1 upwards?

Small correction, regular level progression is not really grinding.
Grinding for those of you who don't know is in fancy terms "engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain 'fat lootz' and/or 'xps'".
In other words, it's for instance playing whack-a-mole with respawning monsters in order to gain a couple of levels. In a good designed game it's wholly optional and completely outside the regular level progression. A poorly designed game intergrates into the overall level progression and would force you to level grind in order to become strong enough to beat the final boss.

If you can call the regular level progression in a game grinding, then you need to ask yourself why the hell you're playing that ****ty game.

think for a moment

in playthrough #1 I have already levelled up to level, say, 20. With no NG+ in playthrough #2 I will have to repeat the SAME levelling....which I find annoying (as many others) since 1 work playthrough (as preston put it I believe or maybe it was christina norman) is enough. Thus I see every playthough in which I have to restart from 0 as grinding. the first playthrough or a playthrough I perform with a totally new build or different class starting from 0 is NOT grinding to me

also

I simply cannot fathom WHY the devs are still silent about it, we knew about NG+ MONTHS ahead with ME and DAO. What has possibly changed? 

[Graunt]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

And give people more reason to cry to the heavens that DA2 is Mass Effect with swords? Rather not incur their wrath of a million pointless threads.

Who cares if it is?  It would be a better game for it!

[Chaia]

crimzontearz wrote...

I simply cannot fathom WHY the devs are still silent about it, we knew about NG+ MONTHS ahead with ME and DAO. What has possibly changed? 

The thred is only about 15 hours old, it might just be that no one at BioWare has noted this question yet, and I think this if the first time someone has asked this.
Either that or they haven't completely decided on if DA2 will or will not have NG+ yet, there are still a couple of months to go and I'd bet not everything has been set in stone by now; then again as with other information like companions, romances etc some information has a certain 'release' date if you will, so it might just be that the devs aren't allowed to talk about it to us yet.

[crimzontearz]

Chaia wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

I simply cannot fathom WHY the devs are still silent about it, we knew about NG+ MONTHS ahead with ME and DAO. What has possibly changed? 

The thred is only about 15 hours old, it might just be that no one at BioWare has noted this question yet, and I think this if the first time someone has asked this.
Either that or they haven't completely decided on if DA2 will or will not have NG+ yet, there are still a couple of months to go and I'd bet not everything has been set in stone by now; then again as with other information like companions, romances etc some information has a certain 'release' date if you will, so it might just be that the devs aren't allowed to talk about it to us yet.

you'd be wrong....we started asking about NG+ months ago....I purposely make a thread about it every 3 or 4 weeks.....

[thomaswheeler94]

Magnum Opus, again, fair points raised with the money earnt and about them appearing in the first place, and I definitely don't have any other suggestions on how to balance that out... Except for (haha - semi-joking), spending that money (300gp + whatever else the items get you) on the prostitutes in The Pearl - that way you're helping the uh, the economy, too...



And yeah, I guessed developers wouldn't like it because of the extra work it involves - partly why I wondered if it would even really be a possibility... Oh well... As with knowing the bonus companion for the Signature Edition, NG+ isn't going to make or break the game for me, but it is something I would prefer to have, all things considered... Though only for the same character who has already completed the game (I've never believed in NG+ for different characters/saved games - new save, new playthrough)... Start a new character, no NG+ (until you beat the game with them).

[crimzontearz]

thomaswheeler94 wrote...

Magnum Opus, again, fair points raised with the money earnt and about them appearing in the first place, and I definitely don't have any other suggestions on how to balance that out... Except for (haha - semi-joking), spending that money (300gp + whatever else the items get you) on the prostitutes in The Pearl - that way you're helping the uh, the economy, too...

And yeah, I guessed developers wouldn't like it because of the extra work it involves - partly why I wondered if it would even really be a possibility... Oh well... As with knowing the bonus companion for the Signature Edition, NG+ isn't going to make or break the game for me, but it is something I would prefer to have, all things considered... Though only for the same character who has already completed the game (I've never believed in NG+ for different characters/saved games - new save, new playthrough)... Start a new character, no NG+ (until you beat the game with them).

in other words just like ME1 as opposed to say something with full character import (like dark alliance 2 for instance)

I'm good with that

[BTCentral]

Unless we are seeing Hawke as the main character in the next game too, what advantage does NG+ bring to the game?

Getting to level 50 for the sake of getting to level 50 isn't exactly a valid reason in my opinion, and would be a waste of the developers time when they could be getting on with much more important things. Toolset? DLCs, etc.

It worked just fine in ME however, as you could import your Shepard into the next game...

I'd have thought if we were going to have this feature, we'd have heard about it from the devs by now, and we have not.

Modifié par BTCentral, 02 janvier 2011 - 05:09 .

[Chaia]

crimzontearz wrote...

you'd be wrong....we started asking about NG+ months ago....I purposely make a thread about it every 3 or 4 weeks.....

Evidently so, like I said I thought, calm down a tad yeah boyo. But as that is apprently the case, as the devs haven't given a clear yes or no answer it looks like they don't know yet, or like I said maybe it, like so much information surrounding Dragon Age 2, has a planned out schedule as to when we're allowed to know.

Even so keep up it up yea, this seams to be something a lot of peope want to know, and hopefully they devs will say something before the game is released.

[crimzontearz]

BTCentral wrote...

Unless we are seeing Hawke as the main character in the next game too, what advantage does NG+ bring to the game?
Getting to level 50 for the sake of getting to level 50 isn't exactly a valid reason in my opinion. And would be a waste of the developers time when they could be getting on with much more important things.

It worked just fine in ME however, as you could import your Shepard into the next game...

yes and your abilities were simply reset (or you got a bonus of like 5 levels).......

NG+ is for people who believe 1 work playthrough is enough and want to keep playing with the same character

[BTCentral]

crimzontearz wrote...

yes and your abilities were simply reset (or you got a bonus of like 5 levels).......

NG+ is for people who believe 1 work playthrough is enough and want to keep playing with the same character

So basically, there is no real reason for having it, you just want it?

[/topic]

Modifié par BTCentral, 02 janvier 2011 - 05:12 .

[slimgrin]

^Seems like a valid reason to me. It helps replay value imo. I thought this idea was brilliant when Zelda first did it eons ago.

[Matchy Pointy]

It's not something I use myself, but seing as it should have zero effect on the main game (unless there are some weird quests or the like you would only get on a NG+), I don't mind it being included, I'll just not use it.

Modifié par Matchy Pointy, 02 janvier 2011 - 05:19 .

[BTCentral]

slimgrin wrote...

^Seems like a valid reason to me. It
helps replay value imo. I thought this idea was brilliant when Zelda
first did it eons ago.

Yes, but in this case if you want to play with the same character, and your skills, level, etc. are being reset anyway, why not just create a save at the start of the game, and play again from that?

No extra programming involved.

My point is, this will take up valuable programming time that could be put to much better use elsewhere.
I'll leave this topic at that.

Modifié par BTCentral, 02 janvier 2011 - 05:16 .

[Chaia]

Because that way you would have to delete all of your other saves otherwise you'll get them all muddled up.

EDIT: and besides the good thing about NG+ is that you don't have to spend all of your time re-spending all of the points you gain when you level up.

But now that a few people like BT Central have meantioned it, just how much programming/disk space does something like NG+ take?? I've only really been on the design side of game development, not tech, so I am actully genually interested if you know...

Modifié par Chaia, 02 janvier 2011 - 05:43 .