465 réponses à ce sujet

[tvr321]

Hello forum,

Long time browser, first time poster here.

I am trying to write a paper for my economics class, but I can't focus my thoughts, so I thought I'd leave them here in the hope that I'll be able to think clearer afterward.

From my lengthy observations, it seems to me that this forum think that TIM and by extension, Cerberus is the root of all evil.

Firstly,it seems to me that you all have it carved into your brains that Cerberus is a racist, xenophobic, terrorist organisation. TIM is not xenophobic, he does not hate aliens, he says so himself. He has nothing against them. Proof being that he willingly recruits aliens through Shepard in order to stop the collectors.
Cerberus's goal is simply "the advancement and preservation of humanity" Is it not just patriotism on a larger scale?
Seems like a quite noble goal to me, he's a straight talking, no BS, does what it says on the tin kind of guy.
He simply wants what's best for humanity, and is not going to bend over
and take it. You don't get to the top with everyone else pulling you
down.

I would sure as hell take Cerberus's backing over the council anyday.

Secondly,ungrateful much? Cerberus bring you back to life, they rebuild the
******* Normandy, and they give you a crew, yet nobody seems to give
them an ounce of credit. If it wasn't for them, the galaxy truly would
be doomed. You sure as hell owe them a lot more than an "I'm far too
good for you" attitude and a bunch of prejudgements.

Perhaps what first graved the anti-cerberus attitude into your minds was the way ME1
potrayed the group. We only saw a few research projects that had gone
wrong. And that is simply due to the fact that Cerberus is a motor of
innovation, they are willing to push the boundries when others are held
back by bureaucracy. Action is what will beat the reapers, not sitting
around talking about how everyone should be equal

Humanity didn't advance through "equality" and playing nice, it advanced through great leaders, men/women with visions and the resources to pursue them.
I am referring to real history BTW, not the ME universe.

I think one of MIranda's lines is "Too many join us out of simple Xenophobia", Cerberus cannot stop their association with racism and xenophobia, it's how the "media" (I would imagine...) potray them, it's
not necessarily who they truly are.


This may seem a little deep for what's just a game, but I feel it kind of mirrors reality as well. It's quite a philosophical subject.



Anyway, I'll just leave this here and get back to my mundane paper on the effects of borrowing on a nation's economy...



Bring on the ****storm, this should be amusing.

Please don't close this mods, debates and arguments are what forums are all about!

Modifié par tvr321, 02 janvier 2011 - 01:47 .

[Ryzaki]

....I might be less inclined to think this was spamming if you didn't post this in two separate forums.

On topic: Cerberus and TIM have proven themselves time and time again to not only be lacking any ethical boundaries but to be utterly incompetent as well. I don't mind the ends justify the means. I do mind it when people use it as a sad excuse to make other people's lives miserable and utterly fail at nearly everything they do.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 janvier 2011 - 01:44 .

[Dean_the_Young]

None of which changes that TIM is calculating and manipulative by default, ammoral in execution, and utterly ruthless, while holding both the best and worst of human traits at the same time.



Gratitude doesn't change that. Him being more good than bad for the galaxy at the moment doesn't change that. Him having selfless goals and ambitions for a higher cause doesn't change that.



TIM and Cerberus can be hated because they've done a number of hate-worthy things. Sometimes necessary, sometimes arguably justifiable things, but even the most staunch TIM advocate should be willing to admit that what he's done and condoned, no matter how defended, is very much hate-worthy.

[88mphSlayer]

i thought the Shadow Broker made The Illusive Man look like a boy scout

[tvr321]

Ryzaki wrote...

....I might be less inclined to think this was spamming if you didn't post this in two separate forums.

On topic: Cerberus and TIM have proven themselves time and time again to not only be lacking any ethical boundaries but to be utterly incompetent as well. I don't mind the ends justify the means. I do mind it when people use it as a sad excuse to make other people's lives miserable and utterly fail at nearly everything they do.

Yes, I am sorry about that, someone brought it to my attention that the first thread was in the wrong forum, I have abandonned it and I expect a mod will close it soon. No spamming intended!


I fail to see how they are incompetent. If anything they are the opposite, a group who gets the job done.

[BaneTheSpecTRe]

I know it gets brought up every time, but Akuze says hello.

[tvr321]

Out of interest, how many people actually read the entire post? Very few I expect, because you all immediately know what you are going to post the moment you read the title.



Perhaps I should have changed the title to something for more ambiguous, so that everyone would be forced the read the post to understand the topic.

[Nightwriter]

I am still at a loss to understand why some people expect me to be grateful for something Cerberus did in their own interests.



And of course! There's absolutely no way for humanity to be strong and advance itself politically without torturing people and running sadistic experiments. It's the only way. It's either that or lay down and let the Council walk all over us!

[SSV Enterprise]

They turned an entire human colony into husks, that's mainly why I despise them. Also TIM is a sadist; he had Paul Grayson hunted down in Retribution just so he specifically could be experimented on.

[MyKingdomCold]

Akuze and Admiral Kahoku

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

KeyBane wrote...

I know it gets brought up every time, but Akuze says hello.

Cerberus' link to Akuze is circumstantial.

@Dean

It depends on what you mean by "hate-worthy." Have they committed egregious actions? Absolutely, but I don't think the entire organization should be hated because of it. That being said, I understand people's hate of Cerberus, but I think they need to be examined more deeply than "they did bad things they are bad" before the organization as a whole should be condemned as evil.

EDIT: As for Kahoku, he stuck his nose where he shouldn't have, and he got bit. He should have taken the hint from Alliance leadership: "stop investigating this Cerberus group."

Modifié par Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams, 02 janvier 2011 - 01:59 .

[Aeowyn]

Okay, Cerberus in general is all good and well, but what bothers me is the lack of ethics when conducting their little experiments. But honestly, I can't be bothered hating them, and I've come to respect TIM. The xenophobes in the organisation however, is another story. Yes, sure, we wasted all that time and effort being a spacefaring species only so you can hate on aliens *facepalm*

@COAW:

Wasn't the hint more "stop investigating what happened to your missing marines."?

Modifié par Aeowyn, 02 janvier 2011 - 02:00 .

[dgcatanisiri]

Cerberus operates off the books and proudly. They don't mind cooperating with other species as long as humanity is the one in the lead, giving the orders. They want human DOMINANCE. They've worked to create disposable troops, which, while understandable, still means they're creating a slave race to fight the wars for them. They experiment with illegal technology and procedures, paying no heed to WHY they're illegal. Not to mention the numerous deaths at their hands of their own people. Frankly, more than a few of Cerberus's experiments give mad science a bad name. And, sure, they brought Shepard back, but they did it for their own reasons - if Shepard hadn't been so important to TIM's plans, do you really think he would have brought him back? He made no effort to revive Pressly, or any of the others who died on the Normandy or before. And then there are the things they've done in the books (re: Paul and Gillian Grayson)...

I trust TIM as far as I can throw him, and given that he only communicates with Shepard via hologram...

[MyKingdomCold]

also, has already been said but they deliberately turned a colony into husks, "accidentally" released rachni, and experimented with thorian creepers which turned on them.



And if you read Mass Effect:Ascension, they do some things like sabotage and assassination.

[Ryzaki]

tvr321 wrote...


Yes, I am sorry about that, someone brought it to my attention that the first thread was in the wrong forum, I have abandonned it and I expect a mod will close it soon. No spamming intended!


I fail to see how they are incompetent. If anything they are the opposite, a group who gets the job done.

Really? What exactly have they done tha was beneficial for humanity as a whole.

I'll wait.

And Shep's ressurection doesn't count.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Aeowyn wrote...

@COAW:

Wasn't the hint more "stop investigating what happened to your missing marines."?

The hint was: "stop doing what you are doing, this is above even your pay grade." Cerberus (whether they are still a part of the Alliance or not) is still the Alliance's dirty little secret. They are very much interested in keeping all things Cerberus on the DL.

[Dean_the_Young]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

KeyBane wrote...

I know it gets brought up every time, but Akuze says hello.

Cerberus' link to Akuze is circumstantial.

Cerberus's link to Akuze isn't circumstantial: both Toombs and Spectre whats-her-name will testify (though the second is a bit less authoritative than the first).


Cerberus's basis for Akuze is separate, being as Cerberus was not considered a rogue Alliance black-ops at the time, and Akuze was a site of a 'top secret alliance project' even before the marines were sent in. Cerberus was unquestionably involved, but not necessarily responsible for ordering it.

@Dean

It depends on what you mean by "hate-worthy." Have they committed egregious actions? Absolutely, but I don't think the entire organization should be hated because of it. That being said, I understand people's hate of Cerberus, but I think they need to be examined more deeply than "they did bad things they are bad" before the organization as a whole should be condemned as evil.

I do. You can hate a criminal organization that does criminal things as a matter of policy.

EDIT: As for Kahoku, he stuck his nose where he shouldn't have, and he got bit. He should have taken the hint from Alliance leadership: "stop investigating this Cerberus group."

'My nation, right or wrong, remains my nation all along' doesn't mean that it isn't wrong when it's wrong. Kahoku, by any standard of what we want the military to do, should have done what he did (up to promising a deal with the Shadow Broker).

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Ryzaki wrote...

Really? What exactly have they done tha was beneficial for humanity as a whole.

I'll wait.

And Shep's ressurection doesn't count.

First, why does Shepard's resurrection not count?

Well here we go:
Made advancements in controlling Geth. Advancements that are unparalleled.
Developed EDI.
Lobbied for the creation of the Normandy SR1, and they actually built the SR2 by themselves.
Took down the SB and put a (potential) ally in charge.
The defeat of the Collectors (making safe all of the human Terminus colonies).

[Dean_the_Young]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Cerberus operates off the books and proudly. They don't mind cooperating with other species as long as humanity is the one in the lead, giving the orders. They want human DOMINANCE. They've worked to create disposable troops, which, while understandable, still means they're creating a slave race to fight the wars for them.

When they worked with Rachni, they thought Rachni soldiers were dumb drones, not intelligent. And I'm frankly puzzled why anyone would consider Thorian Creeper shock troopers a bad thing. Neither dumb animals or mindless automatons can really qualify as slavery. The closer analog is domestication.

They experiment with illegal technology and procedures, paying no heed to WHY they're illegal.

There are a lot of reasons why technologies are restricted at an international level, and safety is one of the rarer ones. Intellectual property rights, strategic benefits, and preserving advantages are far more common.

Not to mention the numerous deaths at their hands of their own people. Frankly, more than a few of Cerberus's experiments give mad science a bad name. And, sure, they brought Shepard back, but they did it for their own reasons - if Shepard hadn't been so important to TIM's plans, do you really think he would have brought him back?He made no effort to revive Pressly, or any of the others who died on the Normandy or before. And then there are the things they've done in the books (re: Paul and Gillian Grayson)...
I trust TIM as far as I can throw him, and given that he only communicates with Shepard via hologram...

If you're a biotic, you can throw him rather far. Just have to find him first.

Of course they brought back Shepard for their own reasons. Everyone acts for their own reasons, all the time. He didn't bring you back because he felt pity a human died. He nearly bankrupted Cerberus because Shepard, not Pressly, could affect the galaxy, and humanity, for the better.

[luakel]

tvr321 wrote...
Firstly, it seems to me that you all have it carved into your brains that Cerberus is a racist, xenophobic, terrorist organisation. TIM is not xenophobic, he does not hate aliens, he says so himself. He has nothing against them. Proof being that he willingly recruits aliens through Shepard in order to stop the collectors.

Well, Cerberus is not automatically xenophobic. And neither is TIM, since he's just looking out for humanity... he does have some major issues, such as acting uncaring about casualty rates, but that's another matter. Unfortunately, TIM does seem to have a habit of allowing open xenophobes to join Cerberus. Miranda even acknowledges this, and we get a good example with Kai Leng from the books. And so while TIM is not xenophobic himself, he associates with racists. And you're judged by the company you keep... if Cerberus cared about being distanced from xenophobia, then they wouldn't hire xenophobes.

He does hire aliens through Shepard, as you said, so clearly TIM is willing to work with them in some fashion. Doubt that'll last once the enemy isn't the reapers, though.

tvr321 wrote...
Cerberus's goal is simply "the advancement and preservation of humanity" Is it not just patriotism on a larger scale?
Seems like a quite noble goal to me, he's a straight talking, no BS, does what it says on the tin kind of guy.
He simply wants what's best for humanity, and is not going to bend over and take it. You don't get to the top with everyone else pulling you down.
I would sure as hell take Cerberus's backing over the council anyday.

What's a noble goal, advancing humanity? Yeah, it is. But there's a difference between "everyone else pulling you down" and "being on par with everyone else". You seem to see the former as the situation in ME2... I'd say, especially after Sovereign's attack, it's closer to the latter. Humanity has massive power for a race that's been on the galactic stage for, what, 30 years? And did we get that power because of Cerberus, or because we worked within the rules and laws of the Citadel races and still came out ahead? I dunno, maybe some of those assassinations Cerberus has carried out helped, maybe Akuze and Teltin helped. But overall, humanity's come a long way while remaining connected with the other races. There's no need to do our own thing and violate things the aliens have had in place for millenia when we're fine as is.

tvr321 wrote...
Secondly, ungrateful much? Cerberus bring you back to life, they rebuild the ******* Normandy, and they give you a crew, yet nobody seems to give them an ounce of credit. If it wasn't for them, the galaxy truly would be doomed. You sure as hell owe them a lot more than an "I'm far too good for you" attitude and a bunch of prejudgements.

Did Shepard ask to be brought back? Mine didn't. Sure, he'll do his part against the Reapers now that he's alive, but whenever I try to RP him I can imagine Shepard being freaked out about the fact that he came back from the dead. That's not normal, even in 2185. And for what, so TIM can hide important knowledge about missions (like the fact that the collector ship is a trap) from someone he spent 4 billion credits on? Shepard will accept whatever help is given, but he'll also keep his distance from TIM. And if he finds out that Cerberus is doing more things like Overlord/Akuze/Pragia/Chasca, he'll shut them down and hold TIM responsible once the Reapers are gone.

Shepard doesn't owe TIM anything, TIM owes Shepard some explanations for why Cerberus is classified as a terrorist organization beyond "it was a rogue cell/we did what had to be done, now go kill Reapers".

tvr321 wrote...
Perhaps what first graved the anti-cerberus attitude into your minds was the way ME1
potrayed the group. We only saw a few research projects that had gone
wrong. And that is simply due to the fact that Cerberus is a motor of
innovation, they are willing to push the boundries when others are held
back by bureaucracy. Action is what will beat the reapers, not sitting
around talking about how everyone should be equal

No, alliances will be what beat the Reapers. If they're going to be defeated, Shepard is going to need all the help he can get, probably with Cerberus included. But it might be hard for Shepard to convince some of the other races to go along with a widely-classified terror organization. Turians built the Thanix cannon, remember? Might be hard to convince them to mass produce that when your other allies have been connected to at least one assassination of a Turian leader.

tvr321 wrote...
Humanity didn't
advance through "equality" and playing nice, it advanced through great
leaders, men/women with visions and the resources to pursue them.
I am referring to real history BTW, not the ME universe.

Examples here? I'm guessing you're a proponent of the great man theory, personally I'd disagree with that, since if you take out virtually any "great leader" then things would've been different but it wouldn't change the society they operated in, the enemies/allies encountered, the resources they used...

tvr321 wrote...
I think one of MIranda's lines is "Too many join us out of simple
Xenophobia", Cerberus cannot stop their association with racism and
xenophobia, it's how the "media" (I would imagine...) potray them, it's
not necessarily who they truly are.

But as said above, you're judged by the company you keep. If Cerberus wants to be distanced from xenophobia, they need to work on their PR a bit. Otherwise, they shouldn't be surprised when most people assume that the organization that xenophobes flock to is xenophobic itself.

Good luck on your paper btw.

Modifié par luakel, 02 janvier 2011 - 02:18 .

[tvr321]

Ryzaki wrote...

tvr321 wrote...


Yes, I am sorry about that, someone brought it to my attention that the first thread was in the wrong forum, I have abandonned it and I expect a mod will close it soon. No spamming intended!


I fail to see how they are incompetent. If anything they are the opposite, a group who gets the job done.

Really? What exactly have they done tha was beneficial for humanity as a whole.

I'll wait.

And Shep's ressurection doesn't count.

I literally LOL'ed at this

Oh really? It doesn't count that Cerberus spent billions of credits and employed highly advanced technologies in order to bring back Shepard and to save humanity from the Collector threat

[Dean_the_Young]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Really? What exactly have they done tha was beneficial for humanity as a whole.

I'll wait.

And Shep's ressurection doesn't count.

First, why does Shepard's resurrection not count?

Well here we go:
Made advancements in controlling Geth. Advancements that are unparalleled.
Developed EDI.
Lobbied for the creation of the Normandy SR1, and they actually built the SR2 by themselves.
Took down the SB and put a (potential) ally in charge.
The defeat of the Collectors (making safe all of the human Terminus colonies).

Also improved Alliance relations with the Salarians by taking down a Pope with strong views against the Salarians and Turians for the genophage, which remains a Council-sanctioned project.

They discredited an Asari Matriarch who was also noted as a biotic supremacist, who's views and influence were certainly not good for a largely biotic-less race that was Humanity at the time.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

KeyBane wrote...

I know it gets brought up every time, but Akuze says hello.

Cerberus' link to Akuze is circumstantial.

Cerberus's link to Akuze isn't circumstantial: both Toombs and Spectre whats-her-name will testify (though the second is a bit less authoritative than the first).


Cerberus's basis for Akuze is separate, being as Cerberus was not considered a rogue Alliance black-ops at the time, and Akuze was a site of a 'top secret alliance project' even before the marines were sent in. Cerberus was unquestionably involved, but not necessarily responsible for ordering it.

I fail to see how Toombs is a reliable witness in any way. I'm not denying something shady went down there, but the facts are hardly known. Also, any unethical behavior probably implicates the Alliance more than Cerberus.

@Dean

It depends on what you mean by "hate-worthy." Have they committed egregious actions? Absolutely, but I don't think the entire organization should be hated because of it. That being said, I understand people's hate of Cerberus, but I think they need to be examined more deeply than "they did bad things they are bad" before the organization as a whole should be condemned as evil.

I do. You can hate a criminal organization that does criminal things as a matter of policy.

What do you mean "as a matter of policy"? If you're saying that an organization outside of the law must be treated as criminal, I agree. If you are saying that an individual should hate all independent "criminal" groups regardless of purpose and action, I do not agree. Also, I'm fairly convinced Cerberus is either with the Alliance or the Alliance said to them, "we're going to declare you 'rogue'" *wink*.

EDIT: As for Kahoku, he stuck his nose where he shouldn't have, and he got bit. He should have taken the hint from Alliance leadership: "stop investigating this Cerberus group."

'My nation, right or wrong, remains my nation all along' doesn't mean that it isn't wrong when it's wrong. Kahoku, by any standard of what we want the military to do, should have done what he did (up to promising a deal with the Shadow Broker).

I agree, I just don't think this really implicates Cerberus. The Alliance probably wanted him dead just as much if not more. Kahoku was an uncompromising soldier who was killed due to one or either of these organizations trying to save face. Kahoku was a tragic character.

[Jagri]

I don't think TIM is the root of all evil but merely a mentally sick man who displays the conditions common with that of a psychopath. It is that very condition that gives him such charm and appeal but often they destroy the lives of everyone around them and usally find a horriable end by there own self-destructive means.

[Aeowyn]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Really? What exactly have they done tha was beneficial for humanity as a whole.

I'll wait.

And Shep's ressurection doesn't count.

First, why does Shepard's resurrection not count?

Well here we go:
Made advancements in controlling Geth. Advancements that are unparalleled.
Developed EDI.
Lobbied for the creation of the Normandy SR1, and they actually built the SR2 by themselves.
Took down the SB and put a (potential) ally in charge.
The defeat of the Collectors (making safe all of the human Terminus colonies).

Also improved Alliance relations with the Salarians by taking down a Pope with strong views against the Salarians and Turians for the genophage, which remains a Council-sanctioned project.

They discredited an Asari Matriarch who was also noted as a biotic supremacist, who's views and influence were certainly not good for a largely biotic-less race that was Humanity at the time.

Out of curiosity, is this all in the codex? Because I want to read this.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 02 janvier 2011 - 02:31 .