465 réponses à ce sujet

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Phaedon wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
What about the thousands of stillbirths? What about the psychological trauma of infertile females or females who lose their children? I find it absolutely ridiculous that you so adamantly defend the genophage (which I agree was necessary), while absolutely condemning Cerberus' actions.

Stillbirths? I don't think that it works that way. In any case, I find it absolutely ridiculous how you attack something that prevented a war with millions of victims by talking about psychological traumas. While defending Cerberus.

Yes. Many Krogan pregnancies result in stillbirth due to the genophage.

Also, I'm not attacking the genophage. I believe it was absolutely necessary despite how awful things are. Cerberus does egregious things that are beneficial to humanity as a whole. I'm pointing out that a consequentialist philosophy (which I hold too) is what justifies the genophage and Cerberus' actions, but it does not justify only one or only the other.

[Praetor Knight]

Barquiel wrote...

The genophage was necessary for galactic peace

No more than using a nuke or an asteroid.

Si vis pacem para bellum : If you want peace prepare for war
Si vis bellum para pacem : If you want war prepare for peace

I get a sense the Council pursued the second option with the Krogan after the Rachni wars.

*****************************
Also here's some food for thought from Albert Einstein:

Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. 

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Because trusting a random geth is smart. Also, are you saying befriending Legion eliminates all chance of humanity ever going to war with the geth? I hope you don't believe that.

Because we shouldn't make damnably sure of the necessity of our actions before we start torturing people for possibly useless reasons.

One person. Also, the Research has the potential to save billions of human lives in the future, if not the existence of our species. That research is worth one person imo. You can call me heartless or immoral, but I believe anything else would be irresponsible.

[Xilizhra]

One person. Also, the Research has the potential to save billions of human lives in the future, if not the existence of our species. That research is worth one person imo. You can call me heartless or immoral, but I believe anything else would be irresponsible.

I would call you irresponsibly quick to jump to a rather terrible conclusion. Not nearly enough about the geth is known to conclude that we have to use torturous methods to counter them (or anything to counter them, for that matter).

[Barquiel]

General User wrote...

In other words: the ends justify the means.  Interesting.  I disagree.

As I said, it depends on what your end goal is...imo

[Phaedon]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
Yes. Many Krogan pregnancies result in stillbirth due to the genophage.
Also, I'm not attacking the genophage. I believe it was absolutely necessary despite how awful things are. Cerberus does egregious things that are beneficial to humanity as a whole.

Nope they weren't.

I'm pointing out that a consequentialist philosophy (which I hold too) is what justifies the genophage and Cerberus' actions, but it does not justify only one or only the other.

Again. Slowing a birth rate in order to prevent war, are different than torturing and murdering innocents.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Xilizhra wrote...

One person. Also, the Research has the potential to save billions of human lives in the future, if not the existence of our species. That research is worth one person imo. You can call me heartless or immoral, but I believe anything else would be irresponsible.

I would call you irresponsibly quick to jump to a rather terrible conclusion. Not nearly enough about the geth is known to conclude that we have to use torturous methods to counter them (or anything to counter them, for that matter).

Were you asleep during all of ME1? Why are you so quick to dismiss the continual hostility of Geth towards organics in every account we have due to the account of a lone mobile platform? The geth declared war on humanity when they attacked Eden Prime. I don't recall that war ever being officially ended. I could argue we are still at war with the geth.

[Zulu_DFA]

Phaedon wrote...

You care about emotions now? How comfortable.

Solely for the sake of the discussion. Taking the fight to your base, you know, where you've been sitting all day and arrogantly shouted "Me moral, You not!"

Phaedon wrote...

Do you even know what war means? If you disregard the dead people, then you should know that the emotions would have been a lot worse.

Not for the Krogans it wouldn't. But as I said, the values of the Krogans and the Council races were incompatible, so the stronger side prevailed and imposed their values onto the Krogans.

That's what Cerberus is all about too: be stronger, prevail and impose own values onto others, rather than submit to others and have your values replaced.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 janvier 2011 - 09:23 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm quick to notice that the geth side of the war has dwindled away to almost nothing by the time of ME2. Maybe a more intense war would happen in the future, maybe not, but there's not enough information to take measures this drastic without learning more.

[Jakeul200493]

I like Cerberus. I don't like how they sometimes handle things (mad scientists) and TIM is okayish.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm quick to notice that the geth side of the war has dwindled away to almost nothing by the time of ME2. Maybe a more intense war would happen in the future, maybe not, but there's not enough information to take measures this drastic without learning more.

The measures are not that drastic. It was one person. One. I know it was unsavory, but how many humans were killed by Geth at Eden Prime alone? What about those humans at Feros? What about those humans turned to husks in the freighter in ME1 by the geth? The Geth have proven their hostility towards organics time and time again. If sacrificing a single person could potentially prevent what happened to the Quarian race (billions dead, near extinction), you have to take that chance.

[Zulu_DFA]

Phaedon wrote...

Again. Slowing a birth rate in order to prevent war, are different than torturing and murdering innocents.

No, it's the same. That female Krogan in the Weyrlok hospital preferred being tortured to death to living infertile.

Cerberus doesn't make people so f***ing unhappy that they volunteer for the "evil experiments". The genophage does. And there are billions of unhappy Krogans and only thousands of unhappy Humans.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 janvier 2011 - 09:20 .

[luakel]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
One person. Also, the Research has the potential to save billions of human lives in the future, if not the existence of our species. That research is worth one person imo. You can call me heartless or immoral, but I believe anything else would be irresponsible.

That's immoral.

But it'd be more understandable if Cerberus was at least competent while doing immoral things for the benefit of the future... they're not. Finding the Reaper IFF was successful but cost the entire team sent to do so, Pragia was successful at creating the most powerful human biotic but also made her a psychopath and cost the lives of the entire project, experimenting on Grayson was successful in examining indoctrination but ended up unleashing a Human-Reaper hybrid on the galaxy and losing valuable Cerberus resources to the Turians, Overlord was successful in gaining knowledge about geth but cost the lives of the whole project and almost caused a galaxy wide AI catastrophe. If Cerberus is going to use questionable means, they need to make sure that they don't cause more trouble than they're trying to avert.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
So even if the experiments were that last drop that tilted the scales in favor of the "free world" in the struggle against communism, they still weren't worth it? It'd be better if they never happened, even if it meant that the US would have fallen apart in the 1990s and Britain become a "rogue state" in a world dominated by communists?

Yep, if the U.S. relied on things like Tuskegee to win the Cold War and didn't even punish those responsible once they became public knowledge, we were no better than U.S.S.R., except perhaps in the number of experiments carried out. So it would make no difference if we won or they did.

Modifié par luakel, 02 janvier 2011 - 09:19 .

[Xilizhra]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm quick to notice that the geth side of the war has dwindled away to almost nothing by the time of ME2. Maybe a more intense war would happen in the future, maybe not, but there's not enough information to take measures this drastic without learning more.

The measures are not that drastic. It was one person. One. I know it was unsavory, but how many humans were killed by Geth at Eden Prime alone? What about those humans at Feros? What about those humans turned to husks in the freighter in ME1 by the geth? The Geth have proven their hostility towards organics time and time again. If sacrificing a single person could potentially prevent what happened to the Quarian race (billions dead, near extinction), you have to take that chance.

You think that one person could really hold off the entirety of the geth fleet if they did attack en masse? They'd need to repeat the experiment with many more people to seriously control the geth, and that's ignoring the fact that Overlord FAILED; the VI went berserk and had to be destroyed. There's a good chance that the premise of the experiment is totally worthless, and it's the sort of thing that could probably have been uncovered had Archer bothered to test this thing before activating it.
In short, it was a terrible chance built on a shaky premise that very possibly was doomed to failure from the start. Like the rest of Cerberus' darker side, worthless.

[Winterfly]

Seemingly you people find the council to be "morally" perfect. We all know winnners decide and right now the council is a winner, the highest of society. Behind the scenery Im pretty sure they done their kind of bad things.



Cerberus works in cells, some cells Im pretty sure are more humane then others.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Xilizhra wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

The measures are not that drastic. It was one person. One. I know it was unsavory, but how many humans were killed by Geth at Eden Prime alone? What about those humans at Feros? What about those humans turned to husks in the freighter in ME1 by the geth? The Geth have proven their hostility towards organics time and time again. If sacrificing a single person could potentially prevent what happened to the Quarian race (billions dead, near extinction), you have to take that chance.

You think that one person could really hold off the entirety of the geth fleet if they did attack en masse? They'd need to repeat the experiment with many more people to seriously control the geth, and that's ignoring the fact that Overlord FAILED; the VI went berserk and had to be destroyed. There's a good chance that the premise of the experiment is totally worthless, and it's the sort of thing that could probably have been uncovered had Archer bothered to test this thing before activating it.
In short, it was a terrible chance built on a shaky premise that very possibly was doomed to failure from the start. Like the rest of Cerberus' darker side, worthless.

The purpose of Overlord was not to turn David into a weapon, it was to study the possibility of the geth being controlled. There were many beneficial advancements made in a subject that has been studied very little. The experiment went awry, but it hardly failed. They got the results that were intended, the writers just felt it was too good for Cerberus so suspended David in that unnecessary rig, and made sure at least 50 people working on the project were killed.

[Xilizhra]

And they couldn't have done this any other way?

I do wonder what Archer's reaction will be when he learns that absolutely no mothers will have their lives improved by his research.

[Phaedon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
No, it's the same. That female Krogan in the Weyrlok hospital preferred being tortured to death to living infertile.

You are still arguing about this? Whether you like it or not, killing people is not better than rendering them infertile. You base the emotions of all of the krogans on a few who wished to be sacrificed in order to find a cure. You want to know how they feel? They are pissed. Pissed, because they could have had all of the Milky Way for themselves, but were defeated by some aliens who were weaker than them. Their egoism is hurt. 

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Not for the Krogans it wouldn't. But as I said, the values of the Krogans and the Council races were incompatible, so the stronger side prevailed and imposed their values onto the Krogans.

No, it's a lot simpler. Neither the krogan nor the Council would stop. The Council ordered the STG to create the genophage. It was a clean victory, no more deaths. Millions were saved. You want to compare them to Cerberus? The cowards who abducted little children, tortured and murdered little to children so that they could produce a single biotic who bring more death? To the idiots murder their political enemies and soldiers? To TIM who dismissed betrayal as a petty grudge and had his own organization destroyed because of one? Nice try. 

That's what Cerberus is all about too: be stronger, prevail and impose own values onto others, rather than submit to others and have your values replaced.

The first part was disturbing, but you prove my point, they force people to do things. This, by all standards, is bad and codemnable. But then again, it might be the same standards that you consider idiotic. Liberty is indeed overrated.

Anyway, I am off. 'night.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Xilizhra wrote...

And they couldn't have done this any other way?
I do wonder what Archer's reaction will be when he learns that absolutely no mothers will have their lives improved by his research.

Maybe, maybe not. Like I alluded too before, Cerberus might have just been trying to meet their evil quota for the month.

Also, I think it's a little early to say "absolutely no mothers will have their lives improved by his research." We don't know what advancements will be based on this research. This research has the possibility to save humanity from extinction (by war with Geth). That's a lot of happy mothers.

[Xilizhra]

Also, I think it's a little early to say "absolutely no mothers will have their lives improved by his research." We don't know what advancements will be based on this research. This research has the possibility to save humanity from extinction (by war with Geth). That's a lot of happy mothers.

The odds of any kind of war with the geth as a whole seem... low, to say the least. Obviously ME3 will show the truth, but I doubt that Overlord will play a part in it.

[Zulu_DFA]

luakel wrote...

Yep, if the U.S. relied on things like Tuskegee to win the Cold War and didn't even punish those responsible once they became public knowledge, we were no better than U.S.S.R., except perhaps in the number of experiments carried out. So it would make no difference if we won or they did.

What makes you think such things were done in the USSR on a larger scale than in the US, or at all?

Maybe the USSR lost the Cold War due to being less ruthless and determined than the US, including the areas where the human experimentation was concerned?

[Amyntas]

At the beginning of the game, TIM says something like: "We may have different methods, but we're on the same side." I wanted to tell TIM right there that methods define what side I am on, and quit Cerberus. I hope we can in ME3.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, I think it's a little early to say "absolutely no mothers will have their lives improved by his research." We don't know what advancements will be based on this research. This research has the possibility to save humanity from extinction (by war with Geth). That's a lot of happy mothers.

The odds of any kind of war with the geth as a whole seem... low, to say the least. Obviously ME3 will show the truth, but I doubt that Overlord will play a part in it.

What do you mean? Humanity is still at war with the Geth, remember? 

[Xilizhra]

Maybe the USSR lost the Cold War due to being less ruthless and determined than the US, including the areas where the human experimentation was concerned?

Given their abortive attempt to breed humans with chimpanzees to create a race of apeman supersoldiers, I kind of doubt this.

What do you mean? Humanity is still at war with the Geth, remember?

And has Overlord helped that at all?

[AlexMBrennan]

There were many beneficial advancements made in a subject that has been studied very little. The experiment went awry, but it hardly failed.

Some people might consider unleashing a deadly VI infection on the galaxy a minor failure - suppose a bio weapons lab somewhere accidentally released plague 2.0? Was this prevented by elaborate safeguards? No, it was prevented because Shepard didn't arrive 5 minutes later.



On a slightly unrelated note, there is some concern that placebo controlled drug trials are unethical (because the control group receives no treatment). I think it's rather frightening how many posters here express their belief that the ends justify any means. [Note, e.g. that people aren't being dragged off the streets and violently killed in experiments that might lead to a cure for cancer]