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[The Smoking Man]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...And saying someone who objects to a group morally is a naive idealist? That's...pretty sketchy.

Saying that while fighting a war akin to the bloody Apocalypse against an enemy that has wiped life in it's entirety in the entire bloody galaxy without ever being defeated is not even being naive, it's being a bloody idiot or maybe just someone without a regard to the greater goal.

The context of the game should never be overlooked, but it seems people just love to ignore it and focus solely on specific cases without remembering that "Hey guys Armagheddon is here!"

Humanity fighting the Reapers involves humanity, for everything it is. Besides, having all these relatively "minor" issues going on all the while makes the sudden desperate situation that'll happen in ME3 even better. Think about it: people going on with their lives and doing what they do, then all of a sudden...
Harbinger: BEND TO ME!
And then everybody becomes husks using nanomachines administered via the anus.

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 03 janvier 2011 - 10:03 .

[Zulu_DFA]

The Smoking Man wrote...
Can't say for sure if his policy was entirely the same back then. Plus, if you don't dismiss Project Overlord, it didn't look like he had a whole lot of oversight on that, either. If I were TIM, if I had known about David's linquistic talent, I may have had them work on some sort of translator for Geth communications first before risking him on their little experiment, especially given that they were interested in such already, as evidenced by the "Cerberus decryption protocols" mentioned in the little teaser description for Legion's dossier in LotSB.

But there's evidence that says he likes to maintain oversight over the Cerberus cells, and evidence that he doesn't. Is this just bad writing?

Honestly? I do dismiss the "Overlord" as a case of so extremely a bad writing, that I even refuse to see the writing there. It's like it was cooked solely by the level designer, who was making the stuff up as he went. Or maybe against time:

"We need a reason for Shep to shoot some things... Ho! a Cerberus' experiment went wrong. What will we be shooting here? Mmm... Geth are the coolest of all, check. One last thing, moral ambiguity.... Must be something about saving the Galaxy... but at the price of aaaa.... handicapped guy, a poor handicapped guy. Ready! 30.1 second."

But it does contribute a ton of "evidence" for the "Cerberus is inept" argument.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 03 janvier 2011 - 11:06 .

[Zulu_DFA]

The Smoking Man wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...And saying someone who objects to a group morally is a naive idealist? That's...pretty sketchy.

Saying that while fighting a war akin to the bloody Apocalypse against an enemy that has wiped life in it's entirety in the entire bloody galaxy without ever being defeated is not even being naive, it's being a bloody idiot or maybe just someone without a regard to the greater goal.

The context of the game should never be overlooked, but it seems people just love to ignore it and focus solely on specific cases without remembering that "Hey guys Armagheddon is here!"

Humanity fighting the Reapers involves humanity, for everything it is. Besides, having all these relatively "minor" issues going on all the while makes the sudden desperate situation that'll happen in ME3 even better. Think about it: people going on with their lives and doing what they do, then all of a sudden...
Harbinger: BEND TO ME!
And then everybody becomes husks using nanomachines administered via the anus.

Yes, but the player as Shepard is supposed to be above all the petty grudges and differences (including his own, such as Akuze, Kahoku, etc.). And any "evil" that opposes the absolute evil is good, that much seems clear and no-brainer.

And that's why I think that if BioWare wants to continue the franchise and keep painting it in shades of morally gray, they'd better made sure the Reapers are gone by the end of ME3. At least the pure paragons won't come across as total morons when they go after Cerberus.

[The Smoking Man]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yes, but the player as Shepard is supposed to be above all the petty grudges and differences (including his own, such as Akuze, Kahoku, etc.). And any "evil" that opposes the absolute evil is good, that much seems clear and no-brainer.

True, but he's still entitled to his opinion, although now isn't the best time to fully act on it.

[The Smoking Man]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

"We need a reason for Shep to shoot some things... Ho! a Cerberus' experiment went wrong. What will we be shooting here? Mmm... Geth are the coolest of all, check. One last thing, moral ambiguity.... Must be something about saving the Galaxy... but at the price of aaaa.... handicapped guy, a poor handicapped guy. Ready! 30.1 second."

You forgot the part where Shepard is, for some reason, capable of being remotely haxed and gets jacked into The Matrix. I was half-expecting to run into millions of Agent Smith clones during that part.
LotSB had some bad demonstrations of tech, too. "The Shadow Broker must have threaded his information network throughout the ship!" "This chair is hooked up to the Shadow Broker's information network." What?! That's some really lame and nonsensical techno-babble. Or his magical information network-powered shield that's invulnerable to bullets but isn't to blunt objects, although the SB doesn't seem to care to adjust his tactics when he realizes that weakness is being exploited. I'm expecting we'll use that magic "information network" to blow up a Reaper. Gives a new meaning to "information is power", doesn't it?

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 03 janvier 2011 - 10:46 .

[Dionkey]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Smoking Man wrote...
Can't say for sure if his policy was entirely the same back then. Plus, if you don't dismiss Project Overlord, it didn't look like he had a whole lot of oversight on that, either. If I were TIM, if I had known about David's linquistic talent, I may have had them work on some sort of translator for Geth communications first before risking him on their little experiment, especially given that they were interested in such already, as evidenced by the "Cerberus decryption protocols" mentioned in the little teaser description for Legion's dossier in LotSB.

But there's evidence that says he likes to maintain oversight over the Cerberus cells, and evidence that he doesn't. Is this just bad writing?

Honestly? I do dismiss the "Overlord" as a case of so extremely a bad writing, that I even refuse to se the writing there. It's like it was cooked solely by the level designer, who was making the stuff up as he went. Or maybe against time:

"We need a reason for Shep to shoot some things... Ho! a Cerberus' experiment went wrong. What will we be shooting here? Mmm... Geth are the coolest of all, check. One last thing, moral ambiguity.... Must be something about saving the Galaxy... but at the price of aaaa.... handicapped guy, a poor handicapped guy. Ready! 30.1 second."

But it does contribute a ton of "evidence" for the "Cerberus is inept" argument.

I think TIM failing to gain information on all these projects is complete BS. Why is it everytime something goes wrong TIM is all like "Don't blame me, they were lying." It has been displayed many times that TIM keeps excessive tabs on people, he sends his most loyal agents to check on his projects. I find it highly unlikely that everyone just hates TIM and likes to hide what they are doing.

[lovgreno]

Bad writing or not, what happened in Overlord realy happened.

[Costin_Razvan]

lovgreno wrote...

Bad writing or not, what happened in Overlord realy happened.

In the context of a war like what is about to happen in ME3 what happened to a few dozen people ( including the autistic kid ) doesn't matter in my eyes when I think whether or not I will give David to Cerberus ( which I always do, judge all you want ).

I personally always try and fit into the shoes of whatever character I am playing in a RPG, and make choices based on what I feel is right or wrong. If such a situation as fighting the Reapers would arise IRL then I would **** my pants.

Given the context, morality takes a hike down a black hole for me. Not saying I am full Renegade as almost 90% of my major choices are Paragon, but you can't cut corners when dealing with the Reapers ( at least the way I view it ), nor can you just say I don't want X as an ally because he is a monster.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 janvier 2011 - 10:58 .

[Zulu_DFA]

The Smoking Man wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

"We need a reason for Shep to shoot some things... Ho! a Cerberus' experiment went wrong. What will we be shooting here? Mmm... Geth are the coolest of all, check. One last thing, moral ambiguity.... Must be something about saving the Galaxy... but at the price of aaaa.... handicapped guy, a poor handicapped guy. Ready! 30.1 second."

You forgot the part where Shepard is, for some reason, capable of being remotely haxed and gets jacked into The Matrix. I was half-expecting to run into millions of Agent Smith clones during that part.

That's clearly a level designer's idea. Texture artists liked the idea, because textures are simpler to render when they are computer-y green. But when the animators heard of the proposed million of Agent Smiths, they bolted.

The Smoking Man wrote...

LotSB had some bad demonstrations of tech, too. "The Shadow Broker must have threaded his information network throughout the ship!" "This chair is hooked up to the Shadow Broker's information network." What?! That's some really lame and nonsensical techno-babble. Or his magical information network-powered shield that's invulnerable to bullets but isn't to blunt objects, although the SB doesn't seem to care to adjust his tactics when he realizes that weakness is being exploited. I'm expecting we'll use that magic "information network" to blow up a Reaper. Gives a new meaning to "information is power", doesn't it?

Probably Feron was powering up the whole ship, and it discharged into the atmosphere via the rods, not the other way around. By the time the Reapers hit Earth it will discharge completely and fall, so that Liara will have nowhere to go but to Shepard's squad.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 03 janvier 2011 - 11:03 .

[Zulu_DFA]

lovgreno wrote...

Bad writing or not, what happened in Overlord realy happened.

DISMISSED.

[The Smoking Man]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Smoking Man wrote...

LotSB had some bad demonstrations of tech, too. "The Shadow Broker must have threaded his information network throughout the ship!" "This chair is hooked up to the Shadow Broker's information network." What?! That's some really lame and nonsensical techno-babble. Or his magical information network-powered shield that's invulnerable to bullets but isn't to blunt objects, although the SB doesn't seem to care to adjust his tactics when he realizes that weakness is being exploited. I'm expecting we'll use that magic "information network" to blow up a Reaper. Gives a new meaning to "information is power", doesn't it?

Probably Feron was powering up the whole ship, and it discharged into the atmosphere via the rods, not the other way around. By the time the Reapers hit Earth it will discharge completely and fall, so that Liara will have nowhere to go but to Shepard's squad.

[Zulu_DFA]

The Smoking Man wrote...

To Matrix! To Colonel John Matrix!

[wolfsite]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Bad writing or not, what happened in Overlord realy happened.

DISMISSED.

Sorry but you can't do that, and if you do that just prooves all the Paragons are right in there views of Cerberus and the people associated with cerberus.

Project Overlord happenned, also if you can dismiss that the the opposing arguement is allowed to dismiss any supportive arguements for Cerberus and then were would that leave this.


(Plus if it didn't happen well Bioware/EA owes a lot of us some money for a DLC that was "never made" in your selective opinion )

Modifié par wolfsite, 03 janvier 2011 - 12:10 .

[gloops]

Sorry but you can't do that, and if you do that just prooves all the Paragons are right in there views of Cerberus and the people associated with cerberus.

Zulu's one word rejoinder does nothing of the sort.

[Arijharn]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

In the context of a war like what is about to happen in ME3 what happened to a few dozen people ( including the autistic kid ) doesn't matter in my eyes when I think whether or not I will give David to Cerberus ( which I always do, judge all you want ).

I personally always try and fit into the shoes of whatever character I am playing in a RPG, and make choices based on what I feel is right or wrong. If such a situation as fighting the Reapers would arise IRL then I would **** my pants.

Given the context, morality takes a hike down a black hole for me. Not saying I am full Renegade as almost 90% of my major choices are Paragon, but you can't cut corners when dealing with the Reapers ( at least the way I view it ), nor can you just say I don't want X as an ally because he is a monster.

That's my thought process as well. I can not understand how anyone can sit there and rationalise that what Cerberus could do equals the known threat of what the Reapers represent.

If we are to assume that a civilisation rises every 50,000 years, and we know that the Reapers have existed for at least 37 million years, then that means that about 750 civilisations have been reaped. At the very least, we know of one species that was brought to extinction and we have circumstancial evidence strongly suggesting that there are probably one or two more as well.

As heartless as it sounds, I think the price of one autistic child that can prevent an entire species from going to war with an absolute alien species and with an uncertain result is actually quite the bargain all things considered. The only moral question I can think of is 'when do you stop' but if we're talking about survival and the way of life, then... is there no point where you should? You should do everything, fight with your last breath?

[Dionkey]

Arijharn wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

In the context of a war like what is about to happen in ME3 what happened to a few dozen people ( including the autistic kid ) doesn't matter in my eyes when I think whether or not I will give David to Cerberus ( which I always do, judge all you want ).

I personally always try and fit into the shoes of whatever character I am playing in a RPG, and make choices based on what I feel is right or wrong. If such a situation as fighting the Reapers would arise IRL then I would **** my pants.

Given the context, morality takes a hike down a black hole for me. Not saying I am full Renegade as almost 90% of my major choices are Paragon, but you can't cut corners when dealing with the Reapers ( at least the way I view it ), nor can you just say I don't want X as an ally because he is a monster.

That's my thought process as well. I can not understand how anyone can sit there and rationalise that what Cerberus could do equals the known threat of what the Reapers represent.

If we are to assume that a civilisation rises every 50,000 years, and we know that the Reapers have existed for at least 37 million years, then that means that about 750 civilisations have been reaped. At the very least, we know of one species that was brought to extinction and we have circumstancial evidence strongly suggesting that there are probably one or two more as well.

As heartless as it sounds, I think the price of one autistic child that can prevent an entire species from going to war with an absolute alien species and with an uncertain result is actually quite the bargain all things considered. The only moral question I can think of is 'when do you stop' but if we're talking about survival and the way of life, then... is there no point where you should? You should do everything, fight with your last breath?

Meanwhile we lose our humanity in the process. Why do you think disasters happen? They happen because someone says "One can't hurt, right?". Cerberus has not shown restraint and will not just close its doors once the reapers are gone. I would rather die clean than with blood on my hands. Are we any differen't than the reapers if we continue? The theory is that they continued to advance to a point where they were a perfect being, if we don't learn the same lessons than we are no differen't.

[AlexMBrennan]

I think the price of one autistic child that can prevent an entire species from going to war with an absolute alien species and with an uncertain result is actually quite the bargain all things considered

That assumes that this was known when the study was approved. There's no evidence to support that assumption*. If it had been known this they could just have asked any Eden Prime survivor (having lost all family, friends, etc) to volunteer.
*Keep in mind that Shepard didn't get called in to clean up the millions of experiments that resulted in the painful death of the test subject only

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 03 janvier 2011 - 12:59 .

[Xilizhra]

As heartless as it sounds, I think the price of one autistic child that can prevent an entire species from going to war with an absolute alien species and with an uncertain result is actually quite the bargain all things considered. The only moral question I can think of is 'when do you stop' but if we're talking about survival and the way of life, then... is there no point where you should? You should do everything, fight with your last breath?

And when this experiment turns out to be an utter disaster conducted for a war that almost certainly won't happen, is it fair to say that it was entered into without enough planning?

[Arijharn]

Dionkey wrote...
 Meanwhile we lose our humanity in the process. Why do you think disasters happen? They happen because someone says "One can't hurt, right?". Cerberus has not shown restraint and will not just close its doors once the reapers are gone. I would rather die clean than with blood on my hands. Are we any differen't than the reapers if we continue? The theory is that they continued to advance to a point where they were a perfect being, if we don't learn the same lessons than we are no differen't. 

And what exactly does one's 'humanity' mean in context of galactic war? It's all well and good for you to say that you're pefectly happy to die 'clean rather than with blood on your hands' but we're talking about an entire species here.

Simple economics really, one person is not worth a billion or a trillion because your actions (and thus its consequences) effect more than just you and your loved ones. It may make you feel better about yourself, but let me be brutally honest here... I don't give the slightest about your feelings, I would prefer that you don't make decisions for our species because you are not willing to make unpopular decisions even if said decisions could be for the best. If this thought is true for me, then it must be true for others, and it must be true for the other species as well who may not even share your morale compass. I'm not saying it's a perfect solution of course, and I still feel like an absolute bastard when I hand Gavin over, but at the end of the day the benefit for everyone must outweigh by necessity the few.

The 'good' morale compass works well in every day life (be nice to your neighbours, try to not screw people over) but we're talking about tough decisions that affect more than just the people you know. Sometimes, hard decisions must be made.

I mean, how many orphans has Shephard created (fun fact; this is actually a statistic that was tracked in Alpha Protocol) after blowing away all those mercs and criminals who while they are rotten people, may have families that depend on him/her? Or is this perhaps too outlandish to consider?

I don't see your Reaper analogy making any sense either. Cerberus doesn't do it willy nilly, but because they're concerned about possible future trends and wants to nullify enemy strengths. Cerberus didn't set up Overlord because they thought it would be fun, and more to the point, nothing Cerberus has done even reaches the same scale of slaughter than what the Reapers do. If Cerberus for example actually did start abducting colonies (and I know for sure they have, rather than just reading some log and making assumptions) then I'd be the first to drop my support for what they're doing -- but I'm not convinced yet that Cerberus has become an impediment to humanity and especially not while the Reapers are climbing over the fence in the back yard.

[Urazz]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Bad writing or not, what happened in Overlord realy happened.

In the context of a war like what is about to happen in ME3 what happened to a few dozen people ( including the autistic kid ) doesn't matter in my eyes when I think whether or not I will give David to Cerberus ( which I always do, judge all you want ).

I personally always try and fit into the shoes of whatever character I am playing in a RPG, and make choices based on what I feel is right or wrong. If such a situation as fighting the Reapers would arise IRL then I would **** my pants.

Given the context, morality takes a hike down a black hole for me. Not saying I am full Renegade as almost 90% of my major choices are Paragon, but you can't cut corners when dealing with the Reapers ( at least the way I view it ), nor can you just say I don't want X as an ally because he is a monster.

The problem is that giving David to Cerberus doesn't help against the Reapers.  At the most it would help against the Geth if it even does that at all.  Trying to control the Geth is pretty much asking to get kicked in the butt.  Sure it could work for a while but what if they break out of it?  Alot more people would die due to the thinking the Geth are no longer a threat because they are controlled than fighting a war against them if it came to that.

[Costin_Razvan]

The problem is that giving David to Cerberus doesn't help against the Reapers. At the most it would help against the Geth if it even does that at all. Trying to control the Geth is pretty much asking to get kicked in the butt. Sure it could work for a while but what if they break out of it? Alot more people would die due to the thinking the Geth are no longer a threat because they are controlled than fighting a war against them if it came to that

The results of Overlord can have effects on the Reapers as well. Both Geth and Reapers and sapient AI, which means that any virus created to disrupt the Geth could very well be made to work on the Reapers.



Do I think for certain Overlord will have results? Not really, and case in point I don't have to. I am perfectly willing to sacrifice one person even for the chance of something that would aid against the Geth and/or Reapers.

[Xilizhra]

I mean, how many orphans has Shephard created (fun fact; this is actually a statistic that was tracked in Alpha Protocol) after blowing away all those mercs and criminals who while they are rotten people, may have families that depend on him/her? Or is this perhaps too outlandish to consider?

Note that in that situation, they're trying to kill you and you don't have much of an option.

The results of Overlord can have effects on the Reapers as well. Both Geth and Reapers and sapient AI, which means that any virus created to disrupt the Geth could very well be made to work on the Reapers.

The Reapers are not only partially organic, their processing mechanisms couldn't be more different from the geth (individual VIs who only form a miniscule part of the collective intelligence vs. "We are each a nation").

[The Big Nothing]

My Shepard is a sole survivor. 'Nuff said.

[Jagri]

Still the fact is ignored that Cerberus continues to focus on agenda and goals while the galaxy is in danger. They are conducting research, experiments, and aquiring reaper technology but rather then share it with the galaxy hordes it for themselves. Yes it will likely trickle into the System Alliance by one means or another but its really not going to make a diffirence if only humanity stands alone against the Reaper Fleet.



Logically speaking wouldn't it make sense if all our lives were at stake to show this technology to the galaxy? To have not only human minds but those of all races working on producing weapons and counter measures for the coming of the Reapers? How could the Council deny such evidence that can be provided by such examples as the Collector Base?

[didymos1120]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The results of Overlord can have effects on the Reapers as well. Both Geth and Reapers and sapient AI, which means that any virus created to disrupt the Geth could very well be made to work on the Reapers.

Uh, how do you figure?  Besides: better to study the known-for-a-fact-to-be Reaper viruses they already have and installed as part of EDI.