465 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

What if for example; the experiments performed on Jack with her nano-surgery is one of the reasons Shephard has such prodigal biotic strength for example, or was one of the reasons why Torfan was so 'successful' (you know, outside the ruthlessness of Shephard's actions).

Since those actions weren't taken to give Shepard prodigal biotic strength, I'd call it luck and no indicator that Cerberus wasn't doing unnecessary evil.

Those people argue that the Genophage (and 2.0) is completely justified despite the inhumane treatment of the Krogan because it (supposedly?) saved lives in the long run, despite the fact that the Citadel Council declared the Genophage illegal afterwards (although no one was censured) by the Citadel Conventions of WMD.

Also because the outcome was tested over and over again until the STG was positive that it was the only option, which is something Cerberus... to put it politely, doesn't do.

I will wholeheartedly agree that trusting Cerberus is a gamble (either way really) but honestly I think anyone who can somehow say Cerberus represents a greater threat than a sentient machine race that has done this whole 'reaping' thing for millions of years is operating on well, I can't really think of a polite way of saying it, logic.

The reason people don't talk so much about defeating the Reapers is because it's inevitable that it'll happen. But Cerberus' fate is still up in the air, and many (including myself) want to bring it down along with the Reapers.

[didymos1120]

Xilizhra wrote...

What if for example; the experiments performed on Jack with her nano-surgery is one of the reasons Shephard has such prodigal biotic strength for example, or was one of the reasons why Torfan was so 'successful' (you know, outside the ruthlessness of Shephard's actions).

Since those actions weren't taken to give Shepard prodigal biotic strength, I'd call it luck and no indicator that Cerberus wasn't doing unnecessary evil.

Not to mention the sheer absurdity of taking the purely gameplay conceit of the player character getting to be the strongest character there is, period, and spinning it so it becomes a Cerberus "achievment".  Yeah.  As well claim that Cerberus invented some amazing technology that gives Shep more squad points at Level 30 than anyone else in the galaxy.  Or that they made it possible for a non-biotic Shep to have warp ammo or whatever for a bonus power.  Silly.

[Dionkey]

Arijharn wrote...


Maybe they are exploring alternatives? I mean, by their nature we wont find out unless we're either directly involved, or Cerberus screws up.

Its certainly possible. It just seems like we can say that about anything though. The council could be as clean as a whistle nowadays, its very unlikely, but possible. I just don't see Cerberus slowing down on the live testing in the CB anytime soon, esp after they considered capturing Grayson to continue testing even after he got loose. Creating him was a mistake in the first place just for the fact that the threat he posed was too great.

Arijharn wrote...


The main issue I
have is people who lance Cerberus but give the Council a free pass on
even greater crimes by arguing that it's justified. That's a convenient
set of 20/20 vision right there. What if for example; the experiments
performed on Jack with her nano-surgery is one of the reasons Shephard
has such prodigal biotic strength for example, or was one of the reasons
why Torfan was so 'successful' (you know, outside the ruthlessness of
Shephard's actions). Hell, maybe the Akuze incidents allowed for
evolutions in APC designs and frigate deployment based on samples and
telemetry gained from Thresher Maws? You know, you can extrapolate
things just as easy as I can, and I do so simply because Cerberus doing
these things for no reason (as in; no reason outside gameplay of
Cerberus being 'bad') is well unjustifiable on the part of BioWare's writing because they've wasted such huge potential.

Those
people argue that the Genophage (and 2.0) is completely justified
despite the inhumane treatment of the Krogan because it
(supposedly?) saved lives in the long run, despite the fact that the
Citadel Council declared the Genophage illegal afterwards (although no one was censured) by the Citadel Conventions of WMD.

I totally agree. The council needs to atone and be brought to justice. The problem is that while the council is easily located, Cerberus is not. I am split on whats worse, trying to run and hide your shadow organization or having near immunity do to you being in a position of power. It has been suggested that Cerberus is the Alliance's wetwork cell, I suppose only time will tell.

Arijharn wrote...



I think it would be to the
detriment of humanity as well if Cerberus tried to put humanity on the
top of the food chain to the point of actively repressing other species
as well, and because of that, I don't think 'human dominance' means what
a lot of people think it does, more like the assured protection and
promotion of humanity's interests, and strong defence of those interests
should they come under attack. Unless Cerberus believes that alien
interference could actively diminish humanity's voice in interspecies
affairs, I think they'd be aware enough to leave well alone.

I am less worried about TIM than his operatives. If Cerberus was in a real position to decide how humanity pulled the galaxies strings I am sure TIM would have a lot of explaining to do if he didn't dominate other races. Most of his followers would be confused and I am sure would even question his motives. A lot of the members of Cerberus are xeneophobic to the core, the only reason TIM can keep them on a tight leash is because his orginzation is small enough to manage. If they were ever able to beat the council races tenfold tech wise (acquiring undamaged reaper tech) they would end up imploding. Their orginazation would baloon itself to death not knowing what to do with technology and would end up having it used to extreme measures.

The Illusive man overestimates his abilities, very apparent when the tuirans raided his research facility.

[Encarmine]

Cerberus has already saved the Galaxy, your all too slow to relise it yet.



Say what you like about their morals, they have delivered the goods.



Martin Sheen is just too cool

[Arijharn]

Dionkey wrote...
Since those actions weren't taken to give Shepard prodigal biotic strength, I'd call it luck and no indicator that Cerberus wasn't doing unnecessary evil.

No they weren't done expressly for the benefit of Shephard, but if they were performed and Shephard benefited from those experiments then that must count for a 'justification' for the fact since it made Shephard more effective. I mean, you didn't build your car but you benefit from its use right?

diddymos wrote...
Not to mention the sheer absurdity of taking the purely gameplay conceit of the player character getting to be the strongest character there is, period, and spinning it so it becomes a Cerberus "achievment".  Yeah.  As well claim that Cerberus invented some amazing technology that gives Shep more squad points at Level 30 than anyone else in the galaxy.  Or that they made it possible for a non-biotic Shep to have warp ammo or whatever for a bonus power.  Silly.

I think you've totally missed the point. Shephard is played up to be effective no matter what, even outside the 'conceit of player'. Shephard apparently has 'fire' and Shephard is a large factor on the mission's eventual success. Obviously I'm not talking about non-biotic Shephard's while I'm talking about biotics...

EDIT: Thanks for that diddy, corrected I think.

Modifié par Arijharn, 04 janvier 2011 - 03:01 .

[didymos1120]

Arijharn wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
Since those actions weren't taken to give Shepard prodigal biotic strength, I'd call it luck and no indicator that Cerberus wasn't doing unnecessary evil.

Misquote, dude. I didn't write that.

[Arijharn]

Dionkey wrote...
Its certainly possible. It just seems like we can say that about anything though. The council could be as clean as a whistle nowadays, its very unlikely, but possible. I just don't see Cerberus slowing down on the live testing in the CB anytime soon, esp after they considered capturing Grayson to continue testing even after he got loose. Creating him was a mistake in the first place just for the fact that the threat he posed was too great.

Honestly? I'm inferring that they're more successful than we've been otherwise let on to because of the fact that Cerberus still exists despite the fact that everyone and their mom are hunting them. While it's true that it wouldn't be as if the Illusive Man tells his backers "Ohh, project B failed due to the fact some husks got out" I'd have to think that the backers would be getting at least something out of it.

I disagree about Grayson though, I think getting him was rather intelligent actually simply because a) They would kill him afterwards, Grayson made their enemy and c) They don't have a PR image to maintain. Grayson was convenient in many (harsh) ways. Lets just say I have considerably less sympathy for Grayson than I do for Jack.

Dionkey wrote...
I am less worried about TIM than his operatives. If Cerberus was in a real position to decide how humanity pulled the galaxies strings I am sure TIM would have a lot of explaining to do if he didn't dominate other races. Most of his followers would be confused and I am sure would even question his motives. A lot of the members of Cerberus are xeneophobic to the core, the only reason TIM can keep them on a tight leash is because his orginzation is small enough to manage. If they were ever able to beat the council races tenfold tech wise (acquiring undamaged reaper tech) they would end up imploding. Their orginazation would baloon itself to death not knowing what to do with technology and would end up having it used to extreme measures.

I would have to agree with some of what you said... the xenophobic nature of some of his employee's is a 'bit' of a concern but I don't think it's acute unless they  had the opportunity to 'indulge' themselves. Other than that though; I don't think Cerberus is out for itself in the classical sense, I think they're very much true to the advancement of humanity, but I don't think they desire the public eye at all (judging by their past actions).

Even if Cerberus installed itself as a puppet master, I doubt they'd have the means to institute some measure of controlling hearts and minds of every human in existence, mainly because I just feel that idea is ridiculous. Cerberus wants to gain advantage for humanity, but like I said before, I doubt to the point of active repression of other species if only because it robs humanity of wealth.

The Illusive man overestimates his abilities, very apparent when the tuirans raided his research facility.

I think there's a limit to just how much one can prepare for. I think it's impossible for example for the STG to 'account for every outcome' because that would be like saying: "I counted all the stars in the universe." I think they did as well as they could reasonably expect to though given the circumstances of the attack.

I don't think that even the Illusive Man paints himself as some sort of omnipotent figure.

[Sbri]

Encarmine wrote...
Since the US started to be bad? hmm im English, so I know how it feels to have people bash your home country for being 'evil' but your country basicly took over the job of being evil empire straight after world war two, us British were a broken power, spent force. Then the U.S. stepped in and took over the job, it just goes to show that even though both countries have in essence given the world the gift of democracy, law and the free market, and both continue to promote anglo democracy around the world. Both countries have done seriously evil things to keep that dream alive.

Just as Cerberus has to do evil things to keep advancing and maintaining the human race, who are now spread accross the stars.

Cerberus are in my view, like a galactic CIA/MI6/KGB group, 'seperate' from the Alliance purely for deniability. In ME1 Admiral Hackett makes them out to sound totaly seperate from the Alliance as Shepard and the rest, arnt high enough in the food chain to be told the truth, Shepard is a trigger man, being sold his next mission.

If  the alliance really wanted to close down cerberus, they probly could.

Am I right in saying, the U.S. denied the CIA existed for several years in the beginning?

  Sorry for the late reply, I'm on PST and still caring for sick family.
  I think one of the reasons many on the world stage welcomed the power change that occured in 2009 here in the US was that they felt that the US might be turning away from it's "evil empire" status.  I frankly am skeptical, but we'll have to see.  I believe that the CIA was actually an overt organization at it's inception, becoming covert during the early stages of the Cold War. If someone knows otherwise, please correct me. The fact that they later came to be denied shows that the acts they have been commiting are questionable.  And how much have those acts helped maintain democracy? Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea, Afganistan, Iran and a fair amount of Central America are evidence that such efforts have been less then successful. Far from promoting the values we want to uphold, they rather instead fell to dictatorship, corruption and extremism. 
  When have both of our countries been held up as the bastions of the free world? When we have chosen instead to stand against atrocities and been willing to sacrifice ourselves to secure freedom.  Bosnia is a recent example that leaps to mind, though there have been others. 

  And I respectfully disagree that Cerberus "HAD" to do many of the things they have done.  Some of there work has fallen in to the realm of the ethical.  Fabulous, kep that up. But a real issue that needs to be addressed is the level of unnecessary cruelity that they seem to feel a need to inflict. 
  Please understand I am in NO WAY condoning the experiments below, but I do feel the need to use them to make my point.
Pragia - If you feel it is necessary to experiment on biotic children, why in the world was it done in such a cruel manner? Staging pit fits against other children?!?! They couldn't have been tested against mechs, or paid mercenaries? Keeping them in tiny, bare cells? Were they taught to read and write? DId they receive care to assist them with their pain and psycological trauma? Were they given proper medical treatment? These are NOT lab rats. These are HUMAN BEINGS! The cruelty was disgusting and immoral.  Justify the experiments all you want, but not try to say that they needed to be done like that.
Overlord - Again, if you can somehow manage to justify the work, was the torture really necessary? Being crucifed with eyes bound open, bleeding from implants and restrained with huge tubs in his mouth? REALLY?!?!  That was unacceptable! There are means of restraint that do not do that sort of damage to the body, mind or spirit.  And don't even get me started on the lack of ensureance of the wellness of the patients state of mind.
Redemption - Study indocrination if you must, but find a bloody VOLUNTEER.  Were they unable to find a person in their organization willing to undergo the work? With thier track record of subject treatment, it's no wonder they couldn't. The moment you experiment on an unwilling victim, you enter them realm of ciminality.
  Again, justify the work if you can, but I see no way you can justify the torture. It is pure sadism.  That is why I believe evil is the correct word for Cerberus' work. Any possible justification is mared by the fact that it is accompanied by appalling and unnescessary levels of pain and suffering. 

Modifié par Sbri, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:15 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Jagri wrote...

So it was the Council/Alliance who stopped the Soverign in the first game?

Naturally.

I retract this statement. It was Cerberus who saved stopped Sovereign in the first game.

All Shepard's efforts would've been fruitless and impossible without the Normandy. And it was the Normandy what shot that last missile at Sovereign after its shields failed. And the construction of the Normandy was inspired by who?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:48 .

[Praetor Knight]

Sbri wrote...

I think one of the reasons many on the world stage welcomed the power change that occured in 2009 here in the US was that they felt that the US might be turning away from it's "evil empire" status.  I frankly am skeptical, but we'll have to see.  I believe that the CIA was actually an overt organization at it's inception, becoming covert during the early stages of the Cold War. If someone knows otherwise, please correct me. The fact that they later came to be denied shows that the acts they have been commiting are questionable.  And how much have those acts helped maintain democracy? Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea, Afganistan, Iran and a fair amount of Central America are evidence that such efforts have been less then successful. Far from promoting the values we want to uphold, they rather instead fell to dictatorship, corruption and extremism. 
  When have both of our countries been held up as the bastions of the free world? When we have chosen instead to stand against atrocities and been willing to sacrifice ourselves to secure freedom.  Bosnia is a recent example that leaps to mind, though there have been others. 

The problem is, as I vaguely mentioned in an earlier post, US Foreign Policy tends to operate on two separate levels. One in the official message of Democracy for all and other ideals.

The second level is then working in other ways for the self interests of the country, as simply another nation-state at the international level, that goes against that message of Democracy for all and so on.

Add to that, the ability to use the military to distract from political issues and you have a confusing and convoluted message coming from Washington, when you look at US talking points and actual actions on the ground around the world.

[Zulu_DFA]

My name is Legion wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Jagri wrote...

So it was the Council/Alliance who stopped the Soverign in the first game?

Naturally.

I retract this statement. It was Cerberus who saved stopped Sovereign in the first game.

All Shepard's efforts would've been fruitless and impossible without the Normandy. And it was the Normandy what shot that last missile at Sovereign after its shields failed. And the construction of the Normandy was inspired by who?

The turians. Anyway I don't think Cerberus can claim credit for a stealth fighter, it is hardly a new idea.

Lol at blatant but typical lie of an alien appeaser.

The Council gave some money for the project and the Turias lent some basic design ideas of theirs, such as separation of the CIC from the bridge. Stealth tech and Tantalus drive core were Human ideas. This much is discussed with the inspecting admiral in ME1. In ME2 EDI reveals that the project itself was set in mortion by Cerberus "infiltrators" in the Alliance.

[Jagri]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Jagri wrote...

So it was the Council/Alliance who stopped the Soverign in the first game?

Naturally.

I retract this statement. It was Cerberus who saved stopped Sovereign in the first game.

All Shepard's efforts would've been fruitless and impossible without the Normandy. And it was the Normandy what shot that last missile at Sovereign after its shields failed. And the construction of the Normandy was inspired by who?

The Turians like stated above but  Cerberus encouraged its development but naturally developing a ship with stealth would interest quite a few people. Don't think everyone in the future is too stupid to understand its potential. But the logic behind your statement is well the System Alliance trained Shepard so its really them who takes the credit or Shepard mother who is really the hero for giving birth to him/her.

Sure Cerberus would also lie about its involment with the SR1 Normandy... It would be one of the few "important" things they could claim they did without it exploding in peoples faces. Wait I guess it did explode and get Shepard killed...

Modifié par Jagri, 04 janvier 2011 - 07:53 .

[The Unfallen]

I don't think Cerberus is anti-alien, just because they are pro-human. I like how Cerberus 'just goes and checks **** out' without dealing with the political bullsh-t of the Alliance and Citadel, but the Illusive Man is still on my ****list for putting lives at risk for his own greed. If there is an option to stomp the Illusive Man in ME 3 I am taking it without hesitation.

[Destroy Raiden_]

They’re a terrorist organization should we love them? Really? They don’t even care if they kill their own men as long as it gets the results they want. I really don’t get a warm fuzzy feeling over that and I really don’t want them as my friends.