465 réponses à ce sujet

[Count Viceroy]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Cerberus is still ultimately accountable to the Alliance. If they ever crossed the line, the Alliance would end them. I am fully convinced Cerberus is still either part of or intimately related with the Alliance.

This is my suspicion as well. The 'official' story is that they've gone rogue. Probably either still fully supported by the top brass of the alliance, or they really did go rogue but the alliance convieniently decides to look the other way until they step out of line.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 02 janvier 2011 - 03:29 .

[Slayer299]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
Cerberus is still ultimately accountable to the Alliance. If they ever crossed the line, the Alliance would end them. I am fully convinced Cerberus is still either part of or intimately related with the Alliance.

COAS - can you explain how Cerberus is actually accountable to the Alliance? Who exactly is going to do the accounting, TIM?

Also, what do you consider to be 'the line' where the Alliance would end them? At what point do you consider that Cerberus has finally gone too far?

[Count Viceroy]

Slayer299 wrote...


Also, what do you consider to be 'the line' where the Alliance would end them? At what point do you consider that Cerberus has finally gone too far?

Something that directly threatens the alliance or human race as a whole? Like directly or indirectly causing another war with the turians for example.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 02 janvier 2011 - 03:33 .

[Zulu_DFA]

SSV Enterprise wrote...

They turned an entire human colony into husks, that's mainly why I despise them. Also TIM is a sadist; he had Paul Grayson hunted down in Retribution just so he specifically could be experimented on.

This is so incorrect!

Cerberus did not turn an entire human colony into husks.

And in Retribution TIM didn't hunt down Grayson to have him "specifically" experimented on. Grayson betrayed Cerberus and TIM sent out Kai Leng to assassinate him. But when Kai Leng reported he was ready to make the kill, it just occured to TIM that Grayson's worthless life can be used instead of that of some unfortunate "innocent" slave he could purchase from the Batarians.

Nightwriter wrote...

I am still at a loss to understand why some people expect me to be grateful for something Cerberus did in their own interests.

Everybody is out for their own interest. And the Paragons too, ahead of everybody, -- they do things to make themselves feel good. Does that mean "grateful" should considered be an empty word? I say no. So Shepard ought to feel grateful towards Cerberus, maybe with the exception of the Sole Survivor, who should put the grudge for Akuze away and feel like they are even now.

Nightwriter wrote...

And of course! There's absolutely no way for humanity to be strong and advance itself politically without torturing people and running sadistic experiments. It's the only way. It's either that or lay down and let the Council walk all over us!

Sentiments like this is the reason why Cerberus was created in the first place, and why it runs its "evil experiments" in remote isolated places, and why the Alliance feeds cover-up stories to the media, whenever anything nasty leaks out. It's essential for the ruling class to always keep most of the populace "at the good side". And IRL you are the populace, that is being kept "at the good side". Role-playing as Commander Shepard provides you with an opportunity to take a glimpse into the underside of how the world spins. It's a pity so few people appreciate it.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 janvier 2011 - 03:34 .

[Slayer299]

Count Viceroy wrote...
Something that directly threatens the alliance or human race as a whole? Like directly or indirectly causing another war with the turians for example.

You mean something like killing Raherix Ursivus from the Turian Hegemony I presume? 

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Slayer299 wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
Cerberus is still ultimately accountable to the Alliance. If they ever crossed the line, the Alliance would end them. I am fully convinced Cerberus is still either part of or intimately related with the Alliance.

COAS - can you explain how Cerberus is actually accountable to the Alliance? Who exactly is going to do the accounting, TIM?

Also, what do you consider to be 'the line' where the Alliance would end them? At what point do you consider that Cerberus has finally gone too far?

Cerberus accountability to the Alliance is of the "we think you are necessary, just don't become more trouble than you're worth" nature. Cerberus is pretty much given free reign, but if they cause too much trouble with the Council races, they will be cut out like a cancer.

[Slayer299]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
This is so incorrect!
Cerberus did not turn an entire human colony into husks.

Zulu, other than your statement in the beginning of the thread, I do not see any proof of what you said (Also, I wasn't going to read 8 pages to search for it).

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Slayer299 wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...
Something that directly threatens the alliance or human race as a whole? Like directly or indirectly causing another war with the turians for example.

You mean something like killing Raherix Ursivus from the Turian Hegemony I presume? 

They made it look like an accident. No incident came of it. Cerberus and the Alliance are both happy.

[JamieCOTC]

Nashiktal wrote...

Already said that. Crappy writing, and poor execution. If those had been fixed, cerberus would actually be a pretty interesting and morally grey organization to work with.

I agree wholeheartedly.  My mostly paragon Shep told the Council to go to hell. I wish there had been more conflict between Shep and TIM like that.  My favorite TIM scene was after Jacob’s loyalty mission where Shep, in so many words, calls TIM an evil b*stard.  I loved his reply.  I wish there had been more confrontations like that even if it let TIM get the upper hand.  I hate Cerberus, but I have to give props to Martin Sheen. 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 02 janvier 2011 - 03:47 .

[frylock23]

IMO, the stated mission of Cerberus as an organization puts them on the same footing as groups like the NAACP and La Raza. If you don't consider those two to be evil for openly advocating solely for the advancement of certain ethnicities, then you shouldn't regard Cerberus as evil for openly advocating solely for the advancement of a certain species.



However, that being said, Cerberus is far too ruthless and willing to fund any project that might help advance its stated goals in some way. I'd say that TIM has a lousy project analysis skill myself because many of things we've seen Cerberus try are things that had only the slimmest chance of yielding any positive returns in the first place, and many are dodgy enough to have run horribly amok. That's where the slight whiff of evil comes in for me, but to me, true evil is something that never had any chance at all of a positive return and was done for the sake of causing pain and suffering. So while some of the projects Cerberus funds are immoral and unethical in the extreme, they aren't fully evil, merely very, very wrong and worthy of the fullest prosecution under the law.

[Slayer299]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
Cerberus accountability to the Alliance is of the "we think you are necessary, just don't become more trouble than you're worth" nature. Cerberus is pretty much given free reign, but if they cause too much trouble with the Council races, they will be cut out like a cancer.

Perhaps I'm dense, but I don't see how that counts as accountability. If they have free reign to do anything except start a war with one of the other Council races why did you say they have accountability at all, which they obviously don't.

[Ryzaki]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Really? What exactly have they done tha was beneficial for humanity as a whole.

I'll wait.

And Shep's ressurection doesn't count.

First, why does Shepard's resurrection not count?

Well here we go:
Made advancements in controlling Geth. Advancements that are unparalleled.
Developed EDI.
Lobbied for the creation of the Normandy SR1, and they actually built the SR2 by themselves.
Took down the SB and put a (potential) ally in charge.
The defeat of the Collectors (making safe all of the human Terminus colonies).

I don't count Shep's ressurection because it was a contrived plot device to force us to work with Cerberus. <_<

???

Yeah so uparelled that Shep had to go and clean their mess. Along with the whole controlling Geth not be necessary considering Legion.
Using the base for the SR1 not to mention they couldn't be even bothered to place top of the line pieces in the ship.
That was SHepard and Liara not Cerberus.
Once again Shepard. Not Cerberus.

[Slayer299]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

Count Viceroy wrote...
Something that directly threatens the alliance or human race as a whole? Like directly or indirectly causing another war with the turians for example.

You mean something like killing Raherix Ursivus from the Turian Hegemony I presume? 

They made it look like an accident. No incident came of it. Cerberus and the Alliance are both happy.

My point was that if Cerberus had screwed that up in the littlest way possible they would have caused a war between us and the Turians.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Slayer299 wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...
Cerberus accountability to the Alliance is of the "we think you are necessary, just don't become more trouble than you're worth" nature. Cerberus is pretty much given free reign, but if they cause too much trouble with the Council races, they will be cut out like a cancer.

Perhaps I'm dense, but I don't see how that counts as accountability. If they have free reign to do anything except start a war with one of the other Council races why did you say they have accountability at all, which they obviously don't.

It's not as strict a type of accountability as one has to a commanding officer, but it's accountability nonetheless. They cannot do whatever they want without fear of punishment from those (the Alliance) who are more powerful than they are.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Slayer299 wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

They made it look like an accident. No incident came of it. Cerberus and the Alliance are both happy.

My point was that if Cerberus had screwed that up in the littlest way possible they would have caused a war between us and the Turians.

But they didn't screw up. This kind of stuff is standard operating procedure for black ops groups. Assassination and espionage are why they exist.

[Count Viceroy]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

It's not as strict a type of accountability as one has to a commanding officer, but it's accountability nonetheless. They cannot do whatever they want without fear of punishment from those (the Alliance) who are more powerful than they are.

This is of course all based on the assumption that the alliance is allowing cerberus to do its dirty work and not that the alliance in fact, can't stop them, as the alliance themselves are making it out to be.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 02 janvier 2011 - 03:58 .

[Slayer299]

I guess. I just honestly don't see it myself though.

[Zulu_DFA]

tvr321 wrote...

I fail to see how they are incompetent. If anything they are the opposite, a group who gets the job done.

Me too. I think that most Cerberus' projects result in success, It's just that the cost of the success is usually high, and involves many human lives.

But the problem is there are instances of utterly crappy writing, such as in the "Overlord" DLC, that do indeed make Cerberus be perceived more inept than "evil", as evidenced by this poll. I'm sure it is not the writers' intention, but their own small lapses produce ample results when they fall in the fertile soilf of the general audience's preconceptions.

That's why people refuse to see that TIM&Cerberus have owned the Shadow Broker like a kid, and how Retribution was Cerberus' success against all odds.

The only thing I don't agree with you is that TIM is "a straight talking, no BS, does what it says on the tin kind of guy". TIM is anything but it. He doesn't trust Shepard and wouldn't come clean and confide with us, even if he did (which is impossible, it seems, because the word "trust" has been long out of TIM's vocabulary). And the paragon folks here and even many renegades (the ones I dub "anarchists") impute him to this to. But I have no problem with that, because I realize that TIM is not a person to bond with on a personal level. He is the chessmaster and Shepard is one of his pieces on the table which may, or may not be the strongest one, but in any case is entirely expendable.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 janvier 2011 - 04:03 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Ryzaki wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

First, why does Shepard's resurrection not count?

Well here we go:
Made advancements in controlling Geth. Advancements that are unparalleled.
Developed EDI.
Lobbied for the creation of the Normandy SR1, and they actually built the SR2 by themselves.
Took down the SB and put a (potential) ally in charge.
The defeat of the Collectors (making safe all of the human Terminus colonies).

I don't count Shep's ressurection because it was a contrived plot device to force us to work with Cerberus. <_<

???

Yeah so uparelled that Shep had to go and clean their mess. Along with the whole controlling Geth not be necessary considering Legion.
Using the base for the SR1 not to mention they couldn't be even bothered to place top of the line pieces in the ship.
That was SHepard and Liara not Cerberus.
Once again Shepard. Not Cerberus.

Contrived or not, it's ME canon. You cannot throw it out simply because it is evidence against your argument.

Sure it was messy, but they had to start somewhere. Also, I don't trust Legion farther than I can throw him.

I don't know what you're trying to say about the Normandy.

Shepard used Cerberus crew, Cerberus intel, Cerberus supllies, etc. Not to mention the fact that Shepard reports to the Illusive Man. This was a Cerberus operation.

The defeat of the Collector's was a Cerberus operation. You cannot possibly argue otherwise.

[Zulu_DFA]

Slayer299 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
This is so incorrect!
Cerberus did not turn an entire human colony into husks.

Zulu, other than your statement in the beginning of the thread, I do not see any proof of what you said (Also, I wasn't going to read 8 pages to search for it).

The proof is in the two logs on the computer terminals the game provides you with, whe you take them together.

Yes, we have a colony full of husks that was briefly visited by a Ceberus operative. Does that mean it was he who planted the "samples"? No. The "samles" were already there, provided by ExoGeni, the Cerberus operative simpy came to collect them. And as there are still logs about the event, it must have happened before the last colonist turned into husk, or there wouldn't have been any logs.

[Ryzaki]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Contrived or not, it's ME canon. You cannot throw it out simply because it is evidence against your argument.

Sure it was messy, but they had to start somewhere. Also, I don't trust Legion farther than I can throw him.

I don't know what you're trying to say about the Normandy.

Shepard used Cerberus crew, Cerberus intel, Cerberus supllies, etc. Not to mention the fact that Shepard reports to the Illusive Man. This was a Cerberus operation.

The defeat of the Collector's was a Cerberus operation. You cannot possibly argue otherwise.

Alright reviving Shepard was in their own interest. They wanted someone to get the job done. Someone other than thir own ineffectual workers. Also trying to say they get credit for SHepard's accomplishments is kind of like saying someone's mother saved all the lives their child did. It...just doesn't compute.

But it didn't go anywhere. As usual Cerberus screwed up and ended up with a massive explosion in their face that Shepard (as usual) had to clean up.

What Shepard manages to achieve isn't because of Cerberus but because of his/her own will. Also that colony never would've been endangered had Cerberus not drawn attention to it. Though yes they did a semi decent deed.

Really? So Shepard is a mindless puppet that follows Cerberus? I guess the blowing up of the base was a Cerbeus decision as well? 

My point about the Normandy was for all of Cerberus's so called "support" thy give SHepard subpar equipement. The only decent thing they gave him was EDI. (And let's hope that doesn't explode astronomically in ME3, not that it would be anything new).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 janvier 2011 - 04:07 .

[JamieCOTC]

I have to wonder, if the Cerberus/Shep part of the game were written better would there still be the amount of hate for Cerberus and TIM.

"Cerberus IS humanity!"
Survey says! - TIM is a bad man.

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 02 janvier 2011 - 04:07 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...


Also, what do you consider to be 'the line' where the Alliance would end them? At what point do you consider that Cerberus has finally gone too far?

Something that directly threatens the alliance or human race as a whole? Like directly or indirectly causing another war with the turians for example.

Last I checked it were the Turians jumping on the opportunity to pick another war with the Humans, so, I guess, Cerberus' apprehensions are all but misplaced.

[greatgeek]

[/quote]


Sure it was messy, but they had to start somewhere. Also, I don't trust Legion farther than I can throw him.


[/quote]

You cannot  ignore evidence because it might disprove your argument.

[Ryzaki]

JamieCOTC wrote...

I have to wonder, if the Cerberus/Shep part of the game were written better would there still be the amount of hate for Cerberus and TIM.

"Cerberus IS humanity!"
Survey says! - TIM is a bad man.

I wouldn't hate them so much. It's Shepard's mindless "yes massa" to TIM that grinds my gears. If I could call them out on some of their actions I wouldn't hate them so much.