465 réponses à ce sujet

[Winterfly]

People always want to be so damn political correct. Being pro human means you must be a neo alien hating ****.

[Lee337]

I'm just suprised Zulu didn't use lots of 'big' words there!

[Xilizhra]

Winterfly wrote...

People always want to be so damn political correct. Being pro human means you must be a neo alien hating ****.

Generally speaking, pro-human can lead to anti-everything-else. Why not just be pro-galactic-life?

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, Japan was the country more involved in unpleasant medical experiments for the sake of information; Germany, or at least its poster boy Mengele, seemed to mostly do it for the lulz.

For the sake of what was it done in the United States?

http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

Phaedon wrote...

Your political correctness attack was ineffective. It should also be noted that it is only effective to Cerberus fans.
Comparing TIM to a racist war criminal isn't as extreme as you think.

Do you know how people really become "war criminals"? See, two or more factions do all sorts of nasty stuff. Then some of them win, and the others lose. The winners write history books where they are angels, and the losers are devils. Simple as that.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 janvier 2011 - 06:00 .

[Phaedon]

Winterfly wrote...

People always want to be so damn political correct. Being pro human means you must be a neo alien hating ****.

Openly "Declaring war against all the alien spieces" (Retribution) pretty much suggests that yes. Not that racism is Cerberus' most serious crime.

[Sbri]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, Japan was the country more involved in unpleasant medical experiments for the sake of information; Germany, or at least its poster boy Mengele, seemed to mostly do it for the lulz.

  Which is why I didn't specify. There are pleanty of other, more recent examples.  Why do so many people think we should go to war with Iran and North Korea? Why did we get involved in Bosnia? Why are leaders in Zimbabwe and Kenya under indictment in the UN?
  If a forign government came to your country and started pulling the sort of crap Cerberus has, you'd be justified in screaming for their heads, and opposing them with every means at your disposal.  So I ask people again, is torture, murder and grotesce medical experimentation acceptable only because it is happening to other people?

[Sbri]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

For the sake of what was it done in the United States?

http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

  No, it is equally wrong when the US does it as well. These people SHOULD be brought to trial, and it is criminal and disgustiong that they havn't been.

[Zulu_DFA]

Phaedon wrote...

Winterfly wrote...

People always want to be so damn political correct. Being pro human means you must be a neo alien hating ****.

Openly "Declaring war against all the alien spieces" (Retribution) pretty much suggests that yes. Not that racism is Cerberus' most serious crime.

Quote? IIRC, it is a reported opinion of the Turians on Cerberus. Such primitive thought patterns are quite common with the Turians. "You Humans are all racists", etc. [Shrugs] And it only justifies the existence and operations of Cerberus.

[Xilizhra]

Do you know how people really become "war criminals"? See, two or more factions do all sorts of nasty stuff. Then some of them win, and the others lose. The winners write history books where they are angels, and the losers are devils. Simple as that.

And here, we have the unprecedented opportunity to see what Cerberus is like in action before the victorious and the defeated are decided, thus allowing us to call them war criminals without needing to worry about that.

[Phaedon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Quote? IIRC, it is a reported opinion of the Turians on Cerberus. Such primitive thought patterns are quite common with the Turians. "You Humans are all racists", etc. [Shrugs] And it only justifies the existence and operations of Cerberus.

Quote? *shrug*, it's a book, not that big, but still big. It was reported as a fact, and I think as a reason that they were considered dangerous, not an opinion. You don't declare war by abducting a few random aliens.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Winterfly wrote...

People always want to be so damn political correct. Being pro human means you must be a neo alien hating ****.

Generally speaking, pro-human can lead to anti-everything-else. Why not just be pro-galactic-life?

I can see being pro-law, pro-independence, and (even if I vehemently disagree) pro-Citadel Council, and pro-[insert name of particular race here]. But what does pro-galactic life mean?
 
What sort of values, and principals would that entail?
 
What sort of system would you consider a pro-galactic life system?

[Phaedon]

General User wrote...
I can see being pro-law, pro-independence, and (even if I vehemently disagree) pro-Citadel Council, and pro-[insert name of particular race here]. But what does pro-galactic life mean?
 
What sort of values, and principals would that entail?
 
What sort of system would you consider a pro-galactic life system?

Maybe pro-equality would be a better term?

[Xilizhra]

Not favoring one species over any other in particular, attempting to maintain galactic unity, moving towards dissolving xeno-nationalism, etc.



No institution with any power in Mass Effect counts as that at the moment, but the Council is the best we've got, and I hope it can be reformed.

[Phaedon]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not favoring one species over any other in particular, attempting to maintain galactic unity, moving towards dissolving xeno-nationalism, etc.

No institution with any power in Mass Effect counts as that at the moment, but the Council is the best we've got, and I hope it can be reformed.

This, I can agree with.

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

Do you know how people really become "war criminals"? See, two or more factions do all sorts of nasty stuff. Then some of them win, and the others lose. The winners write history books where they are angels, and the losers are devils. Simple as that.

And here, we have the unprecedented opportunity to see what Cerberus is like in action before the victorious and the defeated are decided, thus allowing us to call them war criminals without needing to worry about that.

Who are thiese "we" exactly?

The Alliance that spawned Cerberus?

The Salarians that cooked up the genophage?

The Turians who deployed it?

Or the Asari who condoned it?

Not to mention mistreatment of other entire races -- the Quarians, Batarians, that nonetheless have "sins" of their own. Nobody is perfect. Cerberus isn't something special.

[Phaedon]

Hehe, so you don't condone the genophage, do you Zulu?

[Winterfly]

Had I been Cerberus, I would vow to the Krogans and Quarians to join these "rogue" humans in an alliance. Two misstreated races.

[Xilizhra]

Not to mention mistreatment of other entire races -- the Quarians, Batarians, that nonetheless have "sins" of their own. Nobody is perfect. Cerberus isn't something special.

How is the behavior of other species relevant to the fact that Cerberus' own tactics are highly immoral?

Also "we" being the audience and Shepard.

Hehe, so you don't condone the genophage, do you Zulu?

I'm fairly sure that if Cerberus had done it, it would have been fine. It's an attack on the Council first and foremost.

[General User]

Phaedon wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Not favoring one species over any other in particular, attempting to maintain galactic unity, moving towards dissolving xeno-nationalism, etc.

No institution with any power in Mass Effect counts as that at the moment, but the Council is the best we've got, and I hope it can be reformed.

This, I can agree with.

Aye, noble goals indeed (mostly). I have a problem with “maintaining unity” though. 

Does that mean a single, over arching galactic hierarchy, or a united front in face of the Reaper threat. I personally oppose the former and support the later. I contend that for any sort of lasting just power-structure to take hold in the galaxy, the independence of various nations, planets, and empires has to be a cornerstone principle.   
 
And I don’t know that no institution counts as such. I would argue that various planetary and colonial governments might fall into that category, or easily could given the proper leadership…


Such leadership MAY (has the potential to) come in the form of Cerberus.

[Xilizhra]

Such leadership MAY (has the potential to) come in the form of Cerberus.

Remarkably unlikely. I'd prefer to burn it to the ground and have humanity come to the negotiating table with somewhat cleaner hands, and have that leadership come from an organization blind to species.

[Zulu_DFA]

Sbri wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

For the sake of what was it done in the United States?

http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

  No, it is equally wrong when the US does it as well. These people SHOULD be brought to trial, and it is criminal and disgustiong that they havn't been.

Should the the Cold War have been won by the United States?

[Zulu_DFA]

Phaedon wrote...

Hehe, so you don't condone the genophage, do you Zulu?

Yes I do condone the genophage. I do not condone the double standards like "The aliens are cool, so they can't be jerks by definition".

[Phaedon]

General User wrote...
Such leadership MAY (has the potential to) come in the form of Cerberus. 

Cerberus is a criminal organization. Even if Gandhi kicked TIM's ass and assumed control, it wouldn't be possible to happen.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Such leadership MAY (has the potential to) come in the form of Cerberus.

Remarkably unlikely. I'd prefer to burn it to the ground and have humanity come to the negotiating table with somewhat cleaner hands, and have that leadership come from an organization blind to species.

Blind to species? I’m pretty sure there’s no such animal. And if there was it would be a foolish beast. 

Humans, asari, turians, salarians, etc., etc., are different races and peoples, with different evolutions, traditions, and histories. We should acknowledge our differences; they are potentially a source of great strength. Like the Americans say: E Pluribus Umun!
 
A lot of the problems with Cerberus seem to start and end with one, very illusive, man. Under better, more ethical leadership (i.e. Miranda and/or Jacob, if not Shepard), I think Cerberus has great potential.


Even if you did burn Cerberus to the ground (an idea that certainly has its merits), the system being what it is, it would only be a matter of time before someone starts it (or something similar) back up again.

[Xilizhra]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sbri wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

For the sake of what was it done in the United States?

http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

  No, it is equally wrong when the US does it as well. These people SHOULD be brought to trial, and it is criminal and disgustiong that they havn't been.

Should the the Cold War have been won by the United States?

How many of the experiments here actually helped? Especially when the primary cause for the Warsaw Pact's loss was the unsustainability of their economic system?