465 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Even if you did burn Cerberus to the ground (an idea that certainly has its merits), the system being what it is, it would only be a matter of time before someone starts it (or something similar) back up again.

Indeed, but just because crime is inevitable doesn't mean you don't stop criminal organizations.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...
Indeed, but just because crime is inevitable doesn't mean you don't stop criminal organizations.

Phaedon wrote...
Cerberus is a criminal organization. Even if Gandhi kicked TIM's ass and assumed control, it wouldn't be possible to happen.

What if Gandhi assumed direct contol?   *crickets chirping*… *tumble-weed blows by*



But seriously, is Cerberus a criminal organization, or an organization that commits crimes. I say the latter is more accurate.
 
On the other side of that coin you could say that Cerberus is either a heroic organization, or an organization the commits heroic deeds. Again, I favor the later.

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sbri wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

For the sake of what was it done in the United States?

http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

  No, it is equally wrong when the US does it as well. These people SHOULD be brought to trial, and it is criminal and disgustiong that they havn't been.

Should the the Cold War have been won by the United States?

How many of the experiments here actually helped? Especially when the primary cause for the Warsaw Pact's loss was the unsustainability of their economic system?

Ah, gocha!!! So if the experiments would help against the Communists there is room for consideration now?

As to the "unsustainability of the economic system", say thanks to Reagan and the arms race.

[Xilizhra]

So your tactic here is to make a bad analogy, then say "if my analogy was good, it would have meant something?"



For that matter, since when have experiments like this been helpful in Mass Effect? Or if they ever did have results, were they obtained in ways that could only have been due to their nastiness?

[Winterfly]

Anyone saying Ghandi dont know that Ghandi was pretty ****ing insane, much like a Darwinist he was a preacher of "Strongest lives" since of he did not support modern medicine and hospitals.



Cerberus is made into the devil just cause. But end up somewhat the heroes for humans when no one else gives a nickle about the colony, not even the alliance. Sending one guy or woman to see what happens. Great pick there council humanity.



I do no support Cerberus but they are seemingly for a reason the only people trusting Shepard as not being insane. Turians have a big dislike for humans, seemingly that is a good reason to look over your shoulder when the guys with the enormous fleet hate you.

[Xilizhra]

I do no support Cerberus but they are seemingly for a reason the only people trusting Shepard as not being insane. Turians have a big dislike for humans, seemingly that is a good reason to look over your shoulder when the guys with the enormous fleet hate you.

Cerberus may not be wholly evil, and they have done good before, but I don't believe that an organization with their motives and methods should survive on the off-chance that they do something else good.

[General User]

Xilizhra, I’ve read your posts in other threads where you contend that no person is beyond redemption, I agree.

Let me now contend that no organization is beyond redemption. And the indisputable fact that millions of people who would otherwise have been dead at Collector hands are alive today because of Cerberus, makes Cerberus a prime candidate for redemption.

Modifié par General User, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:19 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

So your tactic here is to make a bad analogy, then say "if my analogy was good, it would have meant something?"

And your tactic is: call a good analogy bad.

Xilizhra wrote...

For that matter, since when have experiments like this been helpful in Mass Effect? Or if they ever did have results, were they obtained in ways that could only have been due to their nastiness?

Lazarus project.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:14 .

[Phaedon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Yes I do condone the genophage. I do not condone the double standards like "The aliens are cool, so they can't be jerks by definition".

Who said that? The original genophage, although not morally 'condone'-able, wasn't murder or torture. It was the most painless way to ensure no more deaths.

[Xilizhra]

Xilizhra, I’ve read your posts in other threads where you contend that no person is beyond redemption, I agree. Let me now contend that no organization is beyond redemption. And the indisputable fact that millions of people who would otherwise have been dead at Collector hands are alive today because of Cerberus, makes Cerberus a prime candidate for redemption.

Organizations aren't quite the same thing. The individual people in Cerberus are certainly redeemable; heck, even TIM is. However, the existence of a possibly renegade black ops organization with no accountability is a magnet for immoral activities. Perhaps its better members can shut down and begin lives in a more palatable group.

Lazarus project.

Experiments on a corpse as opposed to a living being?

[Zulu_DFA]

Phaedon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Yes I do condone the genophage. I do not condone the double standards like "The aliens are cool, so they can't be jerks by definition".

Who said that? The original genophage, although not morally 'condone'-able, wasn't murder or torture. It was the most painless way to ensure no more deaths.

Sure it wasn't torture or murder. It was a sterility plauge. Which led to a lot of murder.

The only thing you should care about is that genophage makes billions of Krogans unhappy, while the most extensive Cerberus action affected only thousands of Humans.

And one billion is a million of thousands, in case you don't know.

[Jzadek72]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Yes I do condone the genophage. I do not condone the double standards like "The aliens are cool, so they can't be jerks by definition".

Who said that? The original genophage, although not morally 'condone'-able, wasn't murder or torture. It was the most painless way to ensure no more deaths.

Sure it wasn't torture or murder. It was a sterility plauge. Which led to a lot of murder.

The only thing you should care about is that genophage makes billions of Krogans unhappy, while the most extensive Cerberus action affected only thousands of Humans.

And one billion is a million of thousands, in case you don't know.

It worries me, that despite being anti-cerberus, I agree with most things you say, Zulu.
I don't think that Cerberus is any more or less evil than any alien organisation. However, it doesn't make what they do any more or less wrong. So, especially with the more personal problem of Akuze, I aim to completely destroy them.

[Phaedon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Sure it wasn't torture or murder. It was a sterility plauge. Which led to a lot of murder.

?

The only thing you should care about is that genophage makes billions of Krogans unhappy, while the most extensive Cerberus action affected only thousands of Humans.

You are comparing torture, murder and experimentation to making krogan unhappy, while saving them. 

And one billion is a million of thousands, in case you don't know.

Thanks.

[Zulu_DFA]

Jzadek72 wrote...

I don't think that Cerberus is any more or less evil than any alien organisation. However, it doesn't make what they do any more or less wrong. So, especially with the more personal problem of Akuze, I aim to completely destroy them.

That's right. And I can understand the Sole Survivor's perspective. But haven't Cerberus gotten even with you after Project Lazarus? Afterall, there was nothing personal about Akuze from the Cerberus side?

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Xilizhra, I’ve read your posts in other threads where you contend that no person is beyond redemption, I agree. Let me now contend that no organization is beyond redemption. And the indisputable fact that millions of people who would otherwise have been dead at Collector hands are alive today because of Cerberus, makes Cerberus a prime candidate for redemption.

Organizations aren't quite the same thing. The individual people in Cerberus are certainly redeemable; heck, even TIM is. However, the existence of a possibly renegade black ops organization with no accountability is a magnet for immoral activities. Perhaps its better members can shut down and begin lives in a more palatable group.

Sticking with the mythical animals theme, such an organization would have to be called “the Phoenix Foundation.” Rising from the ashes of the corrupt Cerberus.
 
But is lack of accountability really even a problem? During the Collector Crisis it seemed a decisive plus. How did Jacob put it? “Cerberus doesn’t convene a committee to choose a commission to select an investigator when a colony goes missing, they DO something about it.”


The galaxy and humanity need Cerberus right now, and need them to have a free hand.

Since Cerberus can't be shut down without A) doing serious harm to the war effort, and 2) something just as bad starting back up, it would seem to me that reforming the existing organization is the preferable choice.
 
Cerberus’ activities have mos def been immoral, and worse than that, stupid. But they have had remarkable successes to. TIM's the real problem, with more moral (Jacob) and/or competent (Miranda) leadership, preferably both (why must Cerberus have only one head *bub, ump, bump*?). Cerberus could be a real force for good.

Modifié par General User, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:53 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Phaedon wrote...

You are comparing torture, murder and experimentation to making krogan unhappy, while saving them. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

Yes, because the worst part of torture and murder is that it makes you unhappy. Just like the genophage.

[Winterfly]

I find Cerberus a more plausible faction to survive then for example Garrus group.



Rich, cell based "terrorist" organisations are hard to destroy.

[Xilizhra]

The galaxy and humanity need Cerberus right now, and need them to have a free hand.



Since Cerberus can't be shut down without A) doing serious harm to the war effort, and 2) something just as bad starting back up, it would seem to me that reforming the existing organization is the preferable choice.

Needed, maybe. To resurrect and infodump for Shepard. But with the Shadow Broker's network on Shepard's side, she no longer needs Cerberus, especially not when the galaxy as a whole will be mobilizing against the Reapers.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Xilizhra wrote...

The galaxy and humanity need Cerberus right now, and need them to have a free hand.

Since Cerberus can't be shut down without A) doing serious harm to the war effort, and 2) something just as bad starting back up, it would seem to me that reforming the existing organization is the preferable choice.

Needed, maybe. To resurrect and infodump for Shepard. But with the Shadow Broker's network on Shepard's side, she no longer needs Cerberus, especially not when the galaxy as a whole will be mobilizing against the Reapers.

Too bad the galaxy as a whole  won't be mobilizing until the Reapers are here. Cerberus is doing something about the Reapers NOW. They are without a doubt more helpful than harmful  in preparation for the Reaper attack.

[Phaedon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Yes, because the worst part of torture and murder is that it makes you unhappy. Just like the genophage.

No, it's the part when I die. Or my empathy is hurt.

Modifié par Phaedon, 02 janvier 2011 - 07:55 .

[Xilizhra]

Too bad the galaxy as a whole won't be mobilizing until the Reapers are here. Cerberus is doing something about the Reapers NOW. They are without a doubt more helpful than harmful in preparation for the Reaper attack.

We shall see what ME3 brings, but the repeated damage that they've taken in CDN and Retribution may put the lie to that...

Also, they'll be less helpful without the Collector base.

[KatieLovesBioware]

I think Cerberus probably started out with good intentions ( as they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions) but after the founders saw how hard it was to create an impression on the galaxy of humans whilst at the same time expanding into an already occupied area they turned dirty. Dark and dirty. Sounds kind of kinky like that!

[Fiery Phoenix]

I find myself inadvertently laughing as I read through the posts in here. Zulu + Phaedon + Xili = A combo of win!

[Praetor Knight]

Xilizhra wrote...

No institution with any power in Mass Effect counts as that at the moment, but the Council is the best we've got, and I hope it can be reformed.

I thought this point was interesting and I wanted to add that the nature of any institution is to survive and gain more power.

Look no further than how many institutions go beyond their initial mandates and try to keep growing.

The TVA is likely one of the most widely known to have gone beyond their original mandate. And there are many NGO's that don't actually do anything except collect donations and pay salaries (some use less than 10 cents on every dollar collected towards their originally stated mandates).

So when an organization / institution gets started, it takes on a life of it's own and can have pretty screwy morals as a result.

And from the Cerberus Manifesto, I'm not surprised how that organization grew and became so radical, regardless of how connected it is/was to the Alliance.

******************************************************

Also here are two more related links to what Zulu_DFA posted earlier regarding experimentation, that get under my skin. Eugenics in the U.S. Compulsory sterilization in the U.S.


I personally don't like the genophage or agree with using it a second time, let alone a possible third, but I can see why it seemed necessary the first time.

Nevertheless, the other Citadel races brought on the Krogan Rebellions with their somewhat dismissive "oh, thanks for your sacrifices against the Rachni, here are some planets, go away now, thank you" attitude.

Ignoring the Krogan when they were no longer useful was the other Citadel species' first mistake. And just because some surviving warlords kept stirring trouble and the birthrate kept growing, handing out more planets and giving consessions was not going to resolve the issues faced by the Krogan.

Then when actual fighting broke out, I'm not surprised by how the Krogan responded to sabotage and losing their infrastructure to surgical first strikes. But that's a discussion for another time.

[Zulu_DFA]

Phaedon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Yes, because the worst part of torture and murder is that it makes you unhappy. Just like the genophage.

No, it's the part when I die. Or my empathy is hurt.

In other words: unhappy.