405 réponses à ce sujet

[YoziMaiden]

That's not what I'm saying. Ignoring the main plot in a video game seems odd, why are you playing said game if you do not want to get involved in said plot in the first place. What you are asking for is a completely different game to be written into the game because a few people want to ignore the storyline. A storyline you knew you were getting into when you purchased said game. The time and cash involved alone suggests that at this time this isn't really a possibility.

[iEthanol]

ErichHartmann wrote...

iEthanol wrote...

Once again,

"Any idea, as simple as it may be, can be turned into storytelling brilliance when in the right hands."

I can't make it any more simple for you.

Write your own stories then if its so easy.

Well if Bioware hired me and paid me well enough, I would be more than glad to.

[Xewaka]

YoziMaiden wrote...

That's not what I'm saying. Ignoring the main plot in a video game seems odd, why are you playing said game if you do not want to get involved in said plot in the first place. What you are asking for is a completely different game to be written into the game because a few people want to ignore the storyline. A storyline you knew you were getting into when you purchased said game. The time and cash involved alone suggests that at this time this isn't really a possibility.

I'm playing Fallout New vegas right now. There is a main plot in that game. That it exists is about all I cared/learned about it. But wandering from town to town solving its problems drifter style never gets old, and the game accomodates beautifully for it.

Modifié par Xewaka, 03 janvier 2011 - 06:07 .

[iEthanol]

YoziMaiden wrote...

That's not what I'm saying. Ignoring the main plot in a video game seems odd, why are you playing said game if you do not want to get involved in said plot in the first place. What you are asking for is a completely different game to be written into the game because a few people want to ignore the storyline. A storyline you knew you were getting into when you purchased said game. The time and cash involved alone suggests that at this time this isn't really a possibility.

Who says anything about ignoring the main plot? We're talking about making it more two dimensional as oppose to flat and uninspired.

I didn't know anything when I gave my $60 to Bioware. All I knew is that there was a pretty sick Dragon on the box's cover.

Also, this:

Xewaka wrote...

I'm playing
Fallout New vegas right now. There is a main plot in that game. That it
exists is about all I cared/learned about it. But wandering from town
to town solving its problems drifter style never gets old, and the game
accomodates beautifully for it.

The only down side is that the game is so glitchy. Borderlands also did a good job of this. Though the story sucked, it was fun to just run around and collect items.

I hope there is more variety in armor/helmets/weapons in DA2. Think about how many different items there were in Diablo 2. 

Modifié par iEthanol, 03 janvier 2011 - 06:13 .

[errant_knight]

iEthanol wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Yes, they got rid of their head
writer who's been with Bioware for years, the one who wrote DA:O,
Awakening, and the books (and many other well loved games), and created
characters so beloved that the forum errupts into verbal fisticuffs when
one is slighted....

That's totally a lie. Of course David Gaider is writing it.

Hehe

Well I don't know who the head writers are. All i remember is watching a preview of Awakening on gamespot and the Bioware rep was praising the fact that it was written by the same guy who did the novels. At the time I was excited. After finishing Awkening... not so much.

I'll admit that Awakening had problems, but I think that's mostly the result of a dialogue system that gutted companion interaction, and a very peculiar ending that I'm at a loss to explain. My personal explanation is that it was supposed to lead directly into an expansion that never happend as they decided to jettison DA:O and move directly into DA2. At the time we were told that the reason it ended that way would become clear, but it never did. I could be wrong, of course, but to me that's the most logical explanation.

Modifié par errant_knight, 03 janvier 2011 - 06:12 .

[SeanMurphy2]

iEthanol wrote...

Think of how many people you brutally slaughter in all Bioware games. Your hero could very well be the biggest mass murderer in his/her universe. Now imagine it was real life. Wouldn't there be some psychological whiplash to it all? You just got out of the chantry and you've killed your first human, elf, or beast and your entire body is covered in blood. Would you really just brush it off as being something so minor? What if you kill an enemy only to realize that it has a tragic story? Surely each and every person has a reason to be exist. There must be some driving force greater that 'oh it's just an enemy unit, click, right click, right click, and he's dead. On to the next one.".

I don't know about you, but all these seem like things to me that would potentially drive a person mad. And even if we don't go down that path, we could simply follow the one of a rationalist (as Mr Mxyzptlk described). No sane person would go in a battle against an ancient evil one day after recruitment.

Eh, at any rate I hope Hawke is a little more--- human. But judging from the fact that we saw him rip a demon in half with no emotional response I'm going to have to say he's also under the category of mass murdering psychopath who gets a murder anyone you want to pass while still being labeled a savior.

It is a valid approach.

I am sure Bioware could write a game with lots of dialogue with you constantly reflecting on the hundreds of people you have killed.  And questioning your motivations,  the nature of the force and RPG game mechanics etc.

But it is a different type of game with a different focus.


Actually I thought DA:O was ok. Characters were not easily categorised as good and evil. There were several moments where I thought about whether to kill someone or not.. But I suppose it loses its impact if it happens every encounter.

[AlanC9]

iEthanol wrote...
Wrong. He could run and let those who are actually qualified to fight against the Dark Spawn--- like you know... the Wardens in Orlais who are sitting on their asses and doing nothing.

Well, the obvious problem there is that Loghain won't let the Orlesians handle the Blight. OTOH, your character doesn't know that until much later..

[iEthanol]

AlanC9 wrote...

iEthanol wrote...
Wrong. He could run and let those who are actually qualified to fight against the Dark Spawn--- like you know... the Wardens in Orlais who are sitting on their asses and doing nothing.

Well, the obvious problem there is that Loghain won't let the Orlesians handle the Blight. OTOH, your character doesn't know that until much later..

So if a Warden who joined literally one day ago can defy Loghain you're saying veteran Grey Wardens can't?

Some super duper club full of badass heroes it is...

Modifié par iEthanol, 03 janvier 2011 - 06:34 .

[AlanC9]

iEthanol wrote...

Hehe

Well I don't know who the head writers are. All i remember is watching a preview of Awakening on gamespot and the Bioware rep was praising the fact that it was written by the same guy who did the novels. At the time I was excited. After finishing Awkening... not so much.

You're not the first to make this mistake. Long-timers will remember that after NWN1 shipped there were a lot of forum posts demanding that Bioware fire whoever had written NWN1's OC and re-hire the folks who wrote BG2.

[Maria Caliban]

ErichHartmann wrote...

iEthanol wrote...

Once again,

"Any idea, as simple as it may be, can be turned into storytelling brilliance when in the right hands."

I can't make it any more simple for you.

Write your own stories then if its so easy.

His aren't the right hands. But I agree that with a good writer, any ****y idea can become a good story. Jim Butcher managed to pop out a decent fantasy series based on a dare. He had to write a story that was a 'cross between pokimon and the lost roman legion.'

[YoziMaiden]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

iEthanol wrote...

Once again,

"Any idea, as simple as it may be, can be turned into storytelling brilliance when in the right hands."

I can't make it any more simple for you.

Write your own stories then if its so easy.

His aren't the right hands. But I agree that with a good writer, any ****y idea can become a good story. Jim Butcher managed to pop out a decent fantasy series based on a dare. He had to write a story that was a 'cross between pokimon and the lost roman legion.'

Wait... what?

[AlanC9]

iEthanol wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

iEthanol wrote...
Wrong. He could run and let those who are actually qualified to fight against the Dark Spawn--- like you know... the Wardens in Orlais who are sitting on their asses and doing nothing.

Well, the obvious problem there is that Loghain won't let the Orlesians handle the Blight. OTOH, your character doesn't know that until much later..

So if a Warden who joined literally one day ago can defy Loghain you're saying veteran Grey Wardens can't?

Some super duper club full of badass heroes it is...

Don't be silly. Even with more Wardens you still need an army. You can't use the Orlesian army because that would cause a war between Orlais and Ferelden, and the Empress isn't about to back that play since she doesn't want to weaken her own forces if Ferelden goes down the tubes. Orlesian Wardens might be able to do some of the things the PC does, but they couldn't get Arl Eamon, and couldn't win the Landsmeet. At best this means your army is much weaker, at worst it means outright civil war in Ferelden.

[soteria]

His aren't the right hands. But I agree that with a good writer, any ****y idea can become a good story. Jim Butcher managed to pop out a decent fantasy series based on a dare. He had to write a story that was a 'cross between pokimon and the lost roman legion.'

I'll give it decent. Ironically, to me, the idea of the world was more interesting than the writing. I just got frustrated with the characters. He had a lot of interesting ideas, and the battles were good for a number of books.

Also, along those same lines, The Hobbit started somewhat similarly (in that it came from a somewhat silly idea that he gave to a student to write about).

[iEthanol]

AlanC9 wrote...

iEthanol wrote...

Hehe

Well I don't know who the head writers are. All i remember is watching a preview of Awakening on gamespot and the Bioware rep was praising the fact that it was written by the same guy who did the novels. At the time I was excited. After finishing Awkening... not so much.

You're not the first to make this mistake. Long-timers will remember that after NWN1 shipped there were a lot of forum posts demanding that Bioware fire whoever had written NWN1's OC and re-hire the folks who wrote BG2.

Wait, what? I'm not saying fire anyone. I'm simply saying I wish someone else in Bioware was in control of the story as oppose to the guy who did Awakening. As cliche as Mass Effect might be, the story had a bigger grasp on me. Shepard felt more genuine (but that might partly be due to the fact that he is voiced). His reason of being where he was made more sense.

Awakening on the other hand was one big mess. A great twist like the Dark Spawn showing human actions (such as speaking) was completely flushed down the toilet with the reveal. The architect turned out to be such a disappointment too. It was suppose to tie up the loose ends of Origins but instead it just ended up being a longer than average DLC.

AlanC9 wrote...


Don't
be silly. Even with more Wardens you still need an army. You can't use
the Orlesian army because that would cause a war between Orlais and
Ferelden, and the Empress isn't about to back that play since she
doesn't want to weaken her own forces if Ferelden goes down the tubes.
Orlesian Wardens might be able to do some of the things the PC does, but
they couldn't get Arl Eamon, and couldn't win the Landsmeet. At best
this means your army is much weaker, at worst it means outright civil
war in Ferelden.

Of course you need an army, but who
would it make more sense to gather it--- veteran Wardens or the recruit
who just joined yesterday?

Modifié par iEthanol, 03 janvier 2011 - 06:48 .

[AlanC9]

iEthanol wrote...
Wait, what? I'm not saying fire anyone. I'm simply saying I wish someone else in Bioware was in control of the story as oppose to the guy who did Awakening. As cliche as Mass Effect might be, the story had a bigger grasp on me. Shepard felt more genuine (but that might partly be due to the fact that he is voiced). His reason of being where he was made more sense.

Awakening on the other hand was one big mess. A great twist like the Dark Spawn showing human actions (such as speaking) was completely flushed down the toilet with the reveal. The architect turned out to be such a disappointment too. It was suppose to tie up the loose ends of Origins but instead it just ended up being a longer than average DLC.

I thought the problem was that the writing declined from DAO to DAA. If you didn't like DAO's writing either than that's fine. So I guess I misread you

Of course you need an army, but who
would it make more sense to gather it--- veteran Wardens or the recruit
who just joined yesterday?

It doesn't make sense for an Orlesian to do it because an Orlesian can't do it.  An Orlesian can't get Eamon's support, can't depose Loghain, can't unify Ferelden. Can't even fight a civil war against Loghain, since the dwarves, elves, and magi never signed on for anything like that.

Edit: I'm assuming that the Orlesian Warden is in a leadership role, of course. You could maybe get away with it if he isn't. But if Alistair could do that, we don't need a PC in the first place.

Modifié par AlanC9, 03 janvier 2011 - 06:58 .

[iEthanol]

AlanC9 wrote...

It doesn't make sense for an Orlesian to do it because an Orlesian can't do it.  An Orlesian can't get Eamon's support, can't depose Loghain, can't unify Ferelden. Can't even fight a civil war against Loghain, since the dwarves, elves, and magi never signed on for anything like that.

Says who? The universe you're speaking of is the one in which the path has been cleared for the recruit Warden become the savior. Even so, there are literally a million ways to earn Eamon's support, despose of Loghain, and unify Ferelden. The only limit is the one the writers place on themselves.

When you write a story, AlanC9, you become the god of that given universe. You can set some rules, but in the end the story fleshes out exactly as you want it. And in a world like that anything can happen.

Loghain can get killed, not by the hero or by some massive dragon, but in the back ally of some street in Denerim by a common peasant who had his father die in Ostagar due to Loghain's betrayal.

Modifié par iEthanol, 03 janvier 2011 - 07:05 .

[Negix]

iEthanol wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

It doesn't make sense for an Orlesian to do it because an Orlesian can't do it.  An Orlesian can't get Eamon's support, can't depose Loghain, can't unify Ferelden. Can't even fight a civil war against Loghain, since the dwarves, elves, and magi never signed on for anything like that.

Says who? The universe you're speaking of is the one in which the path has been cleared for the recruit Warden become the savior. Even so, there are literally a million ways to earn Eamon's support, despose of Loghain, and unify Ferelden. The only limit is the one the writers place on themselves.

When you write a story, AlanC9, you become the god of that given universe. You can set some rules, but in the end the story fleshes out exactly as you want it.

WRONG, you dont become the god of said universe, at least not when were talking about a video game story. youre limited by 1. what the engine is capable to do and 2. what will make for good sales. when your writing a noncomercial story your the god of your own universe.

EDIT: oh and 3. of course, what you can afford from a financial perspective... forgot to write that down sorry:innocent:

Modifié par Negix, 03 janvier 2011 - 07:04 .

[atheelogos]

@OP sick of saving the world? Thats what RPGs are all about. Maybe you should try games with another theme?

[iEthanol]

Negix wrote...

WRONG, you dont become the god of said universe, at least not when were talking about a video game story. youre limited by 1. what the engine is capable to do and 2. what will make for good sales. when your writing a noncomercial story your the god of your own universe.

EDIT: oh and 3. of course, what you can afford from a financial perspective... forgot to write that down sorry:innocent:

Alright, if you want to be picky, you're not completely omnipotent--- but you're still pretty close to it. Some games are written before engines are even developed for them. What sells is only shown after the game is released. There is no way of knowing (unless of course you go with a space marine [that always sells]).

atheelogos wrote...

@OP sick of saving the world? Thats what RPGs are all about. Maybe you should try games with another theme?

I see. So it seems you, atheelogos, have set the definition of what an RPG is. Not the dictionary, but your personal opinion of what it should be. Makes perfect sense. How could I ever think otherwise?


If it was only for heroes, it would be called a Hero Playing Game (HPG), not ROLE Playing RPG. A role, dear friend, can be any kind. From a hero, to a villain, to a sidekick, to anything in between.

Modifié par iEthanol, 03 janvier 2011 - 07:13 .

[Negix]

"Alright, if you want to be picky, you're not completely omnipotent--- but you're still pretty close to it. Some games are written before engines are even developed for them. What sells is only shown after the game is released. There is no way of knowing (unless of course you go with a space marine [that always sells])."

what sells isn't shown only after the game is released. games with an totally evil character tend not to sell good for example. also, shooters tend to sell better than other games and so on. scenarios which were used too often don't sell well (WWII), too strange scenarios dont sell well and so on. for example, making a game which is possibly less apealing because of scenario (going away too far from tolkiens good elves/dwarves/whatever vs. evil orcisch thingies) or whatever is a risk. thus, you dont invest much money in it.

To the engine point: Yes, some engines are developed after the story is written but they still have to get along with technological standards. there are things out there that the hardware simply cant handle.

[AlanC9]

iEthanol wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

It doesn't make sense for an Orlesian to do it because an Orlesian can't do it.  An Orlesian can't get Eamon's support, can't depose Loghain, can't unify Ferelden. Can't even fight a civil war against Loghain, since the dwarves, elves, and magi never signed on for anything like that.

Says who? The universe you're speaking of is the one in which the path has been cleared for the recruit Warden become the savior. Even so, there are literally a million ways to earn Eamon's support, despose of Loghain, and unify Ferelden. The only limit is the one the writers place on themselves.

Sure, if they changed the universe from the one that they actually created, then they could make things work the way you want them to. I thought you were attacking the coherence of the actual DA universe rather than taking about a hypothetical alternate DA that exists only in your own mind. My bad.

[maxernst]

atheelogos wrote...

@OP sick of saving the world? Thats what RPGs are all about. Maybe you should try games with another theme?

Umm...so Planescape:Torment was not an RPG?  I realize that it has become conventional (and therefore boring) to save the world in RPG's, but it's hardly essential to the form.  I can't recall ever playing in a pen'n'paper campaign that was about saving the world.  Is it really only interesting and fun to roleplay in worlds that are threatened with imminent destruction by some implacably evil force?

[Bryy_Miller]

YoziMaiden wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

iEthanol wrote...

Once again,

"Any idea, as simple as it may be, can be turned into storytelling brilliance when in the right hands."

I can't make it any more simple for you.

Write your own stories then if its so easy.

His aren't the right hands. But I agree that with a good writer, any ****y idea can become a good story. Jim Butcher managed to pop out a decent fantasy series based on a dare. He had to write a story that was a 'cross between pokimon and the lost roman legion.'

Wait... what?

It's a common phenomenon on video game forums. If some people don't like some aspect of the game, the obvious solution is to fire people (if not the entire department). But when Bobby Kotick does it, it's bad. 

The irony here is that if those that go all fanboy crazy were ever put into a position of authority, they would become the new "Bobby Koticks" and "EAs".

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 03 janvier 2011 - 07:31 .

[Schneidend]

iEthanol wrote...

Wrong. He could run and let those who are actually qualified to fight against the Dark Spawn--- like you know... the Wardens in Orlais who are sitting on their asses and doing nothing.

Ask Alistair about how much help the Orlesian Wardens would be. It would take several weeks just to get to Orlais proper, and you have no idea where to find the Orlesian Wardens specifically. Then it would take time to travel back, time Ferelden does not have.

Your mage is perfectly qualified to fight the Darkspawn. You're a mage with above-average talent and potential, and you're a Grey Warden. That's really all it takes: skill and the Taint.

On a side note, a mix between Mass Effect and Dragon Age would be epic! Too many games focus on either ONLY a futuristic RPG or ONLY a fantasy medieval RPG. Why can't we get a mix of both?

The Star Ocean series does this fairly often, usually by depositing the main character from his position as a Federation officer and plopping him on a primitive planet that has magic and hidden caches of technology from a bygone age or seeded by other advanced civilizations.

[maxernst]

Schneidend wrote...

iEthanol wrote...

Wrong. He could run and let those who are actually qualified to fight against the Dark Spawn--- like you know... the Wardens in Orlais who are sitting on their asses and doing nothing.

Ask Alistair about how much help the Orlesian Wardens would be. It would take several weeks just to get to Orlais proper, and you have no idea where to find the Orlesian Wardens specifically. Then it would take time to travel back, time Ferelden does not have.

Your mage is perfectly qualified to fight the Darkspawn. You're a mage with above-average talent and potential, and you're a Grey Warden. That's really all it takes: skill and the Taint.

On a side note, a mix between Mass Effect and Dragon Age would be epic! Too many games focus on either ONLY a futuristic RPG or ONLY a fantasy medieval RPG. Why can't we get a mix of both?

Except that  Ferelden does have time.  Loghain has time to return to Denrmim after Ostagar, move troops to the Orlesian border, and stop the Orlesians from entering Ferelden.  After that Riordan has time to infiltrate Ferelden, reach Denerim, get capture and tortured for a while.  All of this takes place while you're off gathering armies.  If--as most seem to think--the timespan covered by the game is 1 to 2 years, you actually have time to go all the way to Weisshaupt and back if necessary.  It doesn't really make any sense that the Darkspawn don't overwhelm Ferelden during that time, but somehow or other, they don't.  Alistair's explanation seems reasonable at the time, but isn't consistent with how the game actually plays out.