405 réponses à ce sujet

[Negix]

"Of course it's a collaborative process, but in the end it is something that is still given to the writers to do. They sit in a room and figure out what will happen from the beginning to end. Think Jordan Mechner. He wrote The Sands of Time, it went on to be a hit, it spawned sequels, and in the end he was even hired to write the screenplay for the movie."

sands of time is from ubisoft. they also made risky stuff like assassins creed or Beyond Good and Evil. Were talking about EA here.... theres a slight difference.



"I'm not asking for Bioware to completely reframe their work flow. I'm simply requesting that their be variety in the games. You make it sound as if I'm requesting an entire rework of the genre. Hell, one of the best selling RPGs of all time is the Fable series and their whole marketing campaign is about the fact that you can play as either good or bad. Clearly the sales of that game have proven than allowing a darker path is hardly a sub genre."

still, ultimately you had to save the world in fable. besides, fable isn't as financially succesfull as one might think. as far as i know its propably going to be shut down (not sure tough). But bioware games have variety, you just cant be totally evil or something. but you still can leave an entire village to death or sell the soul of a little child to a demon to sleep with the demon.. thats no nice move xD.

[Schneidend]

iEthanol wrote...

Anyway I'm going to stop feeding the trolls.

Riiight. I'm a troll for disagreeing with your assertion that The Grey Warden could have just run away and everything would turn out just fine.

[dzizass]

I'm also sick with saving the world. I'd love to see BioWare write some different plots for their games, because to date they were always using the same plot for all their titles:



BEGINNING: The world/universe/multiverse is in dire danger but fortunately a member of an ancient order (Jedi/Spectres/Water Monks...) arises in order to save it!

PLOT TWIST: However he doesn't know that he is a Child of Bhaal/Revan/his master is after him (dragon age is an exception - there wasn't a plot twist at all - worst BW story to date)

ENDING: The baddies are dead, the world is saved. Rejoice!



I'd love to see a new plot in DA2 but it's really doubtful that tehy willl make an effort to write one.

[Schneidend]

So...Dragon Age departed from the formula by not having a cliche plot twist...only to have you dislike its story anyway.



Bioware writers, take heed, for if ever there was proof that you can never please your fans, this is it!

[TheMadCat]

Schneidend wrote...

So...Dragon Age departed from the formula by not having a cliche plot twist...only to have you dislike its story anyway.

Bioware writers, take heed, for if ever there was proof that you can never please your fans, this is it!

You don't consider Logain's betrayal (Even though it was advertised a mile away) as a cliche plot twist? 

"Oh yes, Loghain the hero of Fereldan can save us." "Oh, yes the king should be listening to Loghain." 

Oops.

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Schneidend wrote...

Your mage literally had nothing better to do.

I must say I love your charater's motivation for fighting the Darkspawn.

Alistair, "So mage what are you going to do now"

Mage, "I dunno, never thought that far ahead, kill darkspawn I guess?"

Morrigan, "why?"

Mage, "I dunno, need something to do to pass the time"

And thus the tale of the Hero of Ferelden begins.

[YoziMaiden]

TheMadCat wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

So...Dragon Age departed from the formula by not having a cliche plot twist...only to have you dislike its story anyway.

Bioware writers, take heed, for if ever there was proof that you can never please your fans, this is it!

You don't consider Logain's betrayal (Even though it was advertised a mile away) as a cliche plot twist? 

"Oh yes, Loghain the hero of Fereldan can save us." "Oh, yes the king should be listening to Loghain." 

Oops.

I actually kind of assumed Loghain was the hero until I started playing the game.

[TJPags]

TheMadCat wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

So...Dragon Age departed from the formula by not having a cliche plot twist...only to have you dislike its story anyway.

Bioware writers, take heed, for if ever there was proof that you can never please your fans, this is it!

You don't consider Logain's betrayal (Even though it was advertised a mile away) as a cliche plot twist? 

"Oh yes, Loghain the hero of Fereldan can save us." "Oh, yes the king should be listening to Loghain." 

Oops.

Plot twist?  Not at all.  There was virtually no "Loghain is a hero" aspect to Origins.  He was just some guy, and I think most everyone saw him leaving that battle coming a mile away.

[TheMadCat]

TJPags wrote...

Plot twist?  Not at all.  There was virtually no "Loghain is a hero" aspect to Origins.  He was just some guy, and I think most everyone saw him leaving that battle coming a mile away.

Really? Maybe reading The Stolen Throne prior to playing the game gave me a preconcieved notion but even then there were quite a few NPC's really propping Loghain's status up there, claiming he was the man who would be the real saviour rather then the Warden's or Cailan because of his military brillance and love for Ferelden. 

[SeanMurphy2]

Apparently there were some Loghain plotlines cut out. (Which hopefully the writers will talk about some day)


Maybe the mid game was intended to be more about uncovering his plan or understanding his reasons. Like figuring out what Saren or Malek is doing. So structured as a sequence of interesting revelations rather than a huge twist.

I wonder if it could have worked by splitting the mid game into two. The first half you are blamed for Ostager and hunted down. It deals with the civil war, rebellion and Loghain's reasons. Then the second part is delivering the treaties to the Mages, Elves and Dwarves.


Though I remember watching the Ostager trailer and being incredibly curious about what would happen next. I did not think the darkspawn would win outright because then they would quickly overrun Ferelden. I assumed that it was a stalemate or Loghain has manouvered his troops to a better strategic position. Or there would be some justifiable reasons for what he did and ultimately revealed to be a hero.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:28 .

[Solidbebe]

Am I the only one who didn't expect logain to be a villain O_O?

[TheMadCat]

Solidbebe wrote...

Am I the only one who didn't expect logain to be a villain O_O?

I didn't, well until the camera zoomed in on his expression and composure at the meeting with Cailan prior to the battle, that was kind of a dead giveaway. Still though I'm kind of surprised people don't see Loghain as the "cliche plot twist". Nowhere was it really led for the player to believe he would betray the king, the Warden's, and everyone else at Ostogar, hell we were led to believe the opposite.

 

[Schneidend]

I honestly didn't expect Loghain to just outright ditch Cailan, but I knew he was cooking up something when he had that "Yes, that will be a glorious moment for us all..." line after th battle strategy meeting at Ostagar.

Modifié par Schneidend, 04 janvier 2011 - 07:18 .

[SkittlesKat96]

What Stanley Woo said (the first thing he said in this thread) is correct, though it's good to see that this game isn't going to be about saving the world. But it is going to be changing Thedas a little though if not lots..

[dzizass]

Schneidend wrote...

So...Dragon Age departed from the formula by not having a cliche plot twist...only to have you dislike its story anyway.

Bioware writers, take heed, for if ever there was proof that you can never please your fans, this is it!

DA didn't have any plot twists at all, cliched or not. Without plot twists the story was: become a grey warden, make allies, kill archdemon. What's there to like?

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

Though I remember watching the
Ostager trailer and being incredibly curious about what would happen
next. I did not think the darkspawn would win outright because then they
would quickly overrun Ferelden. I assumed that it was a stalemate or
Loghain has manouvered his troops to a better strategic position. Or
there would be some justifiable reasons for what he did and ultimately
revealed to be a hero.

Yeah, I also expected Loghain to have a good reason to betray the king. Perhaps that was cut because it made the player feel un-hero-like, which of course BW would never let happen.

Modifié par dzizass, 04 janvier 2011 - 12:25 .

[ZaroktheImmortal]

I don't see why they couldn't have an RPG about a villainous character. It could be an interesting turn about. Although I also like to play an Anti-hero type character.

[Pwnsaur]

Solidbebe wrote...

Am I the only one who didn't expect logain to be a villain O_O?

I knew, literally from the second I saw him, that he was a villain. Maybe I've played too many BioWare games, but it was painfully obvious even before he spoke.

[soteria]

TheMadCat wrote...

Solidbebe wrote...

Am I the only one who didn't expect logain to be a villain O_O?

I didn't, well until the camera zoomed in on his expression and composure at the meeting with Cailan prior to the battle, that was kind of a dead giveaway. Still though I'm kind of surprised people don't see Loghain as the "cliche plot twist". Nowhere was it really led for the player to believe he would betray the king, the Warden's, and everyone else at Ostogar, hell we were led to believe the opposite. 

I read the Stolen Throne later, and thought his betrayal actually made more sense.  He was Maric's friend, yes, but there was a lot of ambivalence there, and he certainly displayed a willingness to, uh, sacrifice lives in the name of the "greater good."

[TheMadCat]

soteria wrote..
I read the Stolen Throne later, and thought his betrayal actually made more sense.  He was Maric's friend, yes, but there was a lot of ambivalence there, and he certainly displayed a willingness to, uh, sacrifice lives in the name of the "greater good."

It never made sense, he allowed the wholesale slaughter of the king, the Warden's, and hundreds or thousands of people because of this raving paranoia and fanciful desires. He never tried to pursade them that this battle was a bad move, only that he disagreed with Cailan's opinon of the Warden's and the Orlesians. He never gave them a warning or threat that if they refused to heed his advice he would not aid them. He allowed them to go ahead with their plan, promising to help, all with the intention of running away and letting them get slaughtered on the battlefield then turns around and siezes control of the country and tries to kill the one person who could pose as a legit opponent as well as attempt to kill the Warden's that survived, you know the people who specialize in blights.

That's the classic stupid evil of BioWare, doing things for the sake of being the bad guy. None of his actions strengthed the country, none of them did anything to better prepare themselves for the Blight or Orlais. His motives made a little more sense after reading The Stolen Throne but his acutal actions? No way, not from a man of such military brilliance that David's proped him up to being.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 04 janvier 2011 - 05:21 .

[soteria]

TheMadCat wrote...

It never made sense, he allowed the wholesale slaughter of the king, the Warden's, and hundreds or thousands of people because of this raving paranoia and fanciful desires. He never tried to pursade them that this battle was a bad move, only that he disagreed with Cailan's opinon of the Warden's and the Orlesians. He never gave them a warning or threat that if they refused to heed his advice he would not aid them. He allowed them to go ahead with their plan, promising to help, all with the intention of running away and letting them get slaughtered on the battlefield then turns around and siezes control of the country and tries to kill the one person who could pose as a legit opponent as well as attempt to kill the Warden's that survived, you know the people who specialize in blights.

Loghain doesn't think it's a real Blight and he doesn't believe he needs the Wardens to stop it. Just because you know for a fact that the Blight is going to destroy much of Ferelden if it's not stopped by the Grey Wardens, doesn't mean he knows it or has to believe it. The Grey Wardens do have a vested interest in perpetuating the (from his POV) myth that only they can stop a Blight. I'm told that if you have Loghain kill the Archdemon after doing the DR, he comes away still not believing the Grey Wardens are needed.

In short, everything you said is meaningless from where he's sitting because those are facts not in evidence. Furthermore, it's unclear how many "loyal" troops actually died at Ostagar. It looked to me like it was mostly the Grey Wardens and a small force, with the better-armed and trained group under Loghain's control. I'm not a Loghain apologist by any stretch, but to judge him you have to sit in his shoes first.

[SeanMurphy2]

TheMadCat wrote...

It never made sense, he allowed the wholesale slaughter of the king, the Warden's, and hundreds or thousands of people because of this raving paranoia and fanciful desires. He never tried to pursade them that this battle was a bad move, only that he disagreed with Cailan's opinon of the Warden's and the Orlesians. He never gave them a warning or threat that if they refused to heed his advice he would not aid them. He allowed them to go ahead with their plan, promising to help, all with the intention of running away and letting them get slaughtered on the battlefield then turns around and siezes control of the country and tries to kill the one person who could pose as a legit opponent as well as attempt to kill the Warden's that survived, you know the people who specialize in blights.

That's the classic stupid evil of BioWare, doing things for the sake of being the bad guy. None of his actions strengthed the country, none of them did anything to better prepare themselves for the Blight or Orlais. His motives made a little more sense after reading The Stolen Throne but his acutal actions? No way, not from a man of such military brilliance that David's proped him up to being.

I wonder whether Loghain was initally written as a grey ambiguous character. But then later they thought the structure of the story required a clear cut traditional villain.

So they made him clearly responsible for Redcliff, Mage tower, Highever, slavery, kidnapping, torture etc. Rather than it happening due to the chaos, instability and opportunism within the Kingdom.


I think an issue is that the threat of invasion from Orlais was not really introduced. So it never feels plausible and it is harder to see things from Loghain's perspective.

It could be interesting if the player is left in the dark about Ostager. They know it was a disaster but they don't know exactly what happened. Maybe it was their fault the beacon was not lit in time. And Loghain's actions were a good strategic move.

Also they hear rumours about Orlesian troops preparing for an invasion. About plots from rebelling nobles turning against Loghain and the Queen.

Though it would have required a companion joining the party who was genuinely fearful of the Orlesian invasion and still felt bitter about the occupation. Such as Ser Cauthrien who could have convinced you what a great heroic guy Loghain was and how terrible Orlesians are.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:04 .

[Schneidend]

dzizass wrote...

DA didn't have any plot twists at all, cliched or not. Without plot twists the story was: become a grey warden, make allies, kill archdemon. What's there to like?

The bolded works for me. I like Dragon Age as a character-driven, rather than event-driven, story. After all, the only events that really drive the story, the Blight and Loghain's betrayal, happen at the very beginning and then we get to the good stuff, having sex and talking about people's problems.

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

I think an issue is that the threat
of invasion from Orlais was not really introduced. So it never feels
plausible and it is harder to see things from Loghain's perspective.

The
problem with this is that there really wasn't an Orlesian threat to
introduce. I believe somebody manipulated Loghain into thinking there
was. I'm told that in Leliana's Song, a message is delivered that
convinces Loghain of the impending threat.

Modifié par Schneidend, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:13 .

[Schneidend]

Modifié par Schneidend, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:13 .

[TheMadCat]

soteria wrote...

Loghain doesn't think it's a real Blight and he doesn't believe he needs the Wardens to stop it. Just because you know for a fact that the Blight is going to destroy much of Ferelden if it's not stopped by the Grey Wardens, doesn't mean he knows it or has to believe it. The Grey Wardens do have a vested interest in perpetuating the (from his POV) myth that only they can stop a Blight. I'm told that if you have Loghain kill the Archdemon after doing the DR, he comes away still not believing the Grey Wardens are needed.
In short, everything you said is meaningless from where he's sitting because those are facts not in evidence. Furthermore, it's unclear how many "loyal" troops actually died at Ostagar. It looked to me like it was mostly the Grey Wardens and a small force, with the better-armed and trained group under Loghain's control. I'm not a Loghain apologist by any stretch, but to judge him you have to sit in his shoes first.

But he doesn't need to know it's a real blight to see that there is a massive horde of Darkspawn that just slaughtered a large number of Ferelden troops, both creating an advantage for the Darkspawn while weakening the forces of Ferelden. There's no real way to spin that action, it was stupid evil as it created no real benefit for any of Loghain's reasons for doing what he did. And the actions which follow this battle just further cement it.

As for what the army is composed of, it's said there is only a very small force of actual Grey Warden's there, most of the army was composed of regular troops.

Look I love Loghain's character and would love to defend him here but I can't, everything he did was counterproductive to his supposed goals and seemingly done for nothing more then personal gain.

SeanMurphy2 wrote...
I wonder whether Loghain was
initally written as a grey ambiguous character. But then later they
thought the structure of the story required a clear cut traditional
villain.

So they made him clearly responsible for Redcliff, Mage
tower, Highever, slavery, kidnapping, torture etc. Rather than it
happening due to the chaos, instability and opportunism within the
Kingdom.


I think an issue is that the threat of invasion from
Orlais was not really introduced. So it never feels plausible and it is
harder to see things from Loghain's perspective.

It could be
interesting if the player is left in the dark about Ostager. They know
it was a disaster but they don't know exactly what happened. Maybe it
was their fault the beacon was not lit in time. And Loghain's actions
were a good strategic move.

Also they hear rumours about Orlesian
troops preparing for an invasion. About plots from rebelling nobles
turning against Loghain and the Queen.

Though it would have
required a companion joining the party who was genuinely fearful of the
Orlesian invasion and still felt bitter about the occupation. Such as
Ser Cauthrien who could have convinced you what a great heroic guy
Loghain was and how terrible Orlesians are.

Agree, part of the problem was how it all played out and as noted eariler in this thread apparently there is quite a bit of content cut out on Loghain, which could have easily cleared everything up and made his actions seem less blantantly evil. As is there's nothing to back up his wild claims and raving paranoia, every step he takes makes it seem like it was done for more selfish reasons and the fact they made Loghain's actions at Ostogar so apparent didn't help. Would be interesting to know what the writers really intended for Loghain.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:35 .

[soteria]

TheMadCat wrote...

But he doesn't need to know it's a real blight to see that there is a massive horde of Darkspawn that just slaughtered a large number of Ferelden troops, both creating an advantage for the Darkspawn while weakening the forces of Ferelden. There's no real way to spin that action, it was stupid evil as it created no real benefit for any of Loghain's reasons for doing what he did. And the actions which follow this battle just further cement it.

As for what the army is composed of, it's said there is only a very small force of actual Grey Warden's there, most of the army was composed of regular troops.

But we don't know that it was a large force or how much that loss hurt the larger Fereldan army. I got the impression that it was a relatively small portion of the forces they could have called up.

Remember, the military structure was feudal: the king would have a small army loyal directly to him, but the bulk of his forces were called up through the nobility. IIRC, Loghain was one of the few (only?) nobles present, and he salvaged his own troops. You're assuming that the loss of Cailan's forces crippled Ferelden, but we certainly don't know that. Later events seem to indicate that most of the nobility retained their armies intact.

From Loghain's POV, the sacrifice of a small number of troops, including the king, could have long-term benefits even against a potential Blight. Such a loss would shake the nobility into action and unite them in readiness to deal with the real threat--Orlais.