405 réponses à ce sujet

[_Aine_]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

I wonder whether Loghain was initally written as a grey ambiguous character. But then later they thought the structure of the story required a clear cut traditional villain.

Well, some of what was attributed on the forums, or implied by the Wardens could in fact have been Howe.... 

...but anyway, to your point...

I *personally* think Loghain was always a grey character. *Part* of the problem is simply in perception.   Who are *you*, who are you *with* ?  The "wronged" in the story. Those out to rebuild, save the world ( or parts of it) and somehow avenge the deaths of their companions, family and friends.   

Family and friends... the people you are left alive with, have valid reason to interpret reality the way the story sort of leads you to imagine things.   He is your antagonist ( not necessarily the wrong to your inherent "right")

IF you open up the whole game, listen to all that Loghain and everyone else has to say, plus with the history/lore you can get from the books, the whole black/white implication really could be as easy as character perception of the events from their own points of view.  

Loghain, in life, *could* (and I say could because I do not believe it to be so)  have been complete villian in every way.... and still not have been responsible for everything.  A person can be righteously good and make one fatal error that brings the world crumbling to pieces around everything they cared about.  Life sucks like that.  People want things easily categorized because it makes your own decisions seem "right" and warranted. The truth is...

The truth is rarely plain and simple.... I always felt they were called the Grey Wardens for a reason. Of all people they knew that sacrifice was necessary, withholding the truth was commonplace, even killing people to try to grow their ranks - more than acceptable, it was needed.  It always made it to me " a fight to save the world " rather than a fight for good over evil...   Suicidal people want to die, the desire to hold onto life is usually held high in esteem by good and evil alike, even in fairy tales (which is also where *good* and *evil* actually apply because the characters are far more two-dimensional)  

What made one life more willing to be sacrificed or saved than any other at Ostagar?    In war, you have to understand that every decision will likely be grey, and many will fail outright, still with great cost.  Who is right and who is wrong, except when exhumed by history for a more forensic (less emotional I mean) analysis, usually depends on which side you stand on the battlefield.   

While Cailan and Loghain were both fighting for the same ultimate "team" they were also both men with egos and their own opinions, and never were clearly on the same "side": they, even in the beginning, were shown to be fighting for power within their own personal relationship, and on what was best for battle.  Animosity and a fight for power in some ways does not necessarily mean friends or enemies in everything.  

What is UN-WRITTEN is anyone's best guess. Has always been fun to theorize though.  

[_Aine_]

Hanz54321 wrote...

KoP's Law: All threads lead to Loghain.

It's true. 
Well, the "thinky" ones anyway.  

The "lusty feely" ones lead to Alistair, Zev and Morrigan, Leliana.   
The ones where people are crushing on AI who don't allow such tromps have a LOT longer list. 



(The "lusty feely" ones have the best screenshots though.)  

[TheMadCat]

soteria wrote...
But we don't know that it was a large force or how much that loss hurt the larger Fereldan army. I got the impression that it was a relatively small portion of the forces they could have called up.
Remember, the military structure was feudal: the king would have a small army loyal directly to him, but the bulk of his forces were called up through the nobility. IIRC, Loghain was one of the few (only?) nobles present, and he salvaged his own troops. You're assuming that the loss of Cailan's forces crippled Ferelden, but we certainly don't know that. Later events seem to indicate that most of the nobility retained their armies intact.
From Loghain's POV, the sacrifice of a small number of troops, including the king, could have long-term benefits even against a potential Blight. Such a loss would shake the nobility into action and unite them in readiness to deal with the real threat--Orlais.

I understand it's a Feudal system, I just thought it was safe to assume quite a few nobles sent forces there. We know for a fact Highever sent it's forces there and Howe was supposed to send his, Redcliffe was always supposed to be sending their's if I remember correctly. Because of this I think it's safe to assume Cailan sent out a call to his nobles for troops and that there was a sizable portion of Ferelden's manpower at Ostogar. The question is how were the forces divided, which is certainly unclear. I don't doubt Loghain had the majority but I don't believe Cailan was left with just a handful of troops. I don't like relying on what is visually seen because limitations to prevent the writers from presenting what is actually intended. Based on what characters stated throughout the game I'd say it was still a large number of troops and certainly something that would be felt in a relatively small country like Ferelden.

But let's look at his actions beyond Ostogar as well. He took the two other most influential nobles out of the picutre, one through brute force and the other through an attempted assaniation, he promotes Howe who commited treason by sacking and claiming a city within his own country to second in command, left the king in an unsurvivable situation and forces himself as regent. He threatens the nobles and controls Ferelden with an inron fist, sends assasians to kill the few people aware of his plot. All the while Ferelden splits further and further, weakening itself and placing it in a serious position of vunerability and he continues on with actions similar to those which started the division in the first place.

Like I said, want to defend him as I loved his charatcer in The Stolen Throne, but I can't.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 04 janvier 2011 - 07:26 .

[dzizass]

As for Loghain, his whole plot didn't make sense. There were easier ways to get rid of the king than to sacrifice the bulk of the army. Especially that this way, Ferelden forces would be weakened, he'd have a darkspawn invasion from the south and a huge risk of a succession war. It almost looks as if he wanted to make it easier for Orlesians to attack.



Probably a good deal of his plot was changed later to make sure that the player would feel like the good guy - if Loghain was right about the Orlesians, or perhaps the Warderns, player's actions would become morally ambiguous. Some games like New Vegas or Witcher use moral ambiguity to their advantage, BioWare wants the player to be the knight in a shining armour.

Schneidend wrote...



The bolded works for me. I like Dragon Age as a character-driven, rather than event-driven, story. After all, the only events that really drive the story, the Blight and Loghain's betrayal, happen at the very beginning and then we get to the good stuff, having sex and talking about people's problems.

It might have been good stuff if it was well written, which it hasn't. And the plot resembles Schwarzenegger or Steven Seagal films. There are first person shooters which have more elaborate plots - and this is an RPG, a good plot should be the main advantage.

[Morroian]

dzizass wrote...

Probably a good deal of his plot was changed later to make sure that the player would feel like the good guy - if Loghain was right about the Orlesians, or perhaps the Warderns, player's actions would become morally ambiguous. Some games like New Vegas or Witcher use moral ambiguity to their advantage, BioWare wants the player to be the knight in a shining armour.

You mean like Kotor if you go dark side, or Jade Empire.

[dzizass]

Morroian wrote...
You mean like Kotor if you go dark side, or Jade Empire.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

Fine, you got me there. So you're either goody-two-shoes or a murderous sociopath
(without the cool raping part). Still, no moral ambiguity. Maybe, just maybe, ME choices had some ambiguity about them (although not too much - it was the right thing to do, to save the collector base  ).

[Addai]

TheMadCat wrote...
But let's look at his actions beyond Ostogar as well. He took the two other most influential nobles out of the picutre, one through brute force and the other through an attempted assaniation, he promotes Howe who commited treason by sacking and claiming a city within his own country to second in command, left the king in an unsurvivable situation and forces himself as regent. He threatens the nobles and controls Ferelden with an inron fist, sends assasians to kill the few people aware of his plot. All the while Ferelden splits further and further, weakening itself and placing it in a serious position of vunerability and he continues on with actions similar to those which started the division in the first place.

Like I said, want to defend him as I loved his charatcer in The Stolen Throne, but I can't.

Loghain's taking over threads in the DA2 board, too?  LOL

The problems you're describing come about because of some misconceptions- that he was trying to kill Eamon (he wasn't, just take him out of the picture temporarily) and went to Ostagar to kill Cailan, or decided to withdraw merely to kill Cailan.  That's one theory, but not the most plausible IMO.  Seeing Loghain's actions as a series of rock-hard place decisions that get away from him makes for a better story and fits the facts better.

On the OP, I like saving the world.  I like being a character that has to make difficult and questionable choices in order to do that, but I prefer a basically heroic path and am glad the games are set up that way.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 janvier 2011 - 12:14 .

[Schneidend]

dzizass wrote...

As for Loghain, his whole plot didn't make sense. There were easier ways to get rid of the king than to sacrifice the bulk of the army. Especially that this way, Ferelden forces would be weakened, he'd have a darkspawn invasion from the south and a huge risk of a succession war. It almost looks as if he wanted to make it easier for Orlesians to attack.

Most of the banns, arls, and teryns still had their armies after Ostagar. I believe only Cailan's own private army was lost. There wouldn't have been much of a civil war going on if the "bulk" of Ferelden's armies had been sacrificed.

It might have been good stuff if it was well written, which it hasn't. And the plot resembles Schwarzenegger or Steven Seagal films. There are first person shooters which have more elaborate plots - and this is an RPG, a good plot should be the main advantage.

Entirely subjective. I think Dragon Age was written just fine.

[dzizass]

Schneidend wrote...

Most of the banns, arls, and teryns still had their armies after Ostagar. I believe only Cailan's own private army was lost. There wouldn't have been much of a civil war going on if the "bulk" of Ferelden's armies had been sacrificed.

So either he'd lose the bulk of the forces or risk a civil war (which we know from the game did break out). Either way - VERY stupid.

[soteria]

TheMadCat wrote...
...I just thought it was safe to assume quite a few nobles sent forces there. We know for a fact Highever sent it's forces there and Howe was supposed to send his, Redcliffe was always supposed to be sending their's if I remember correctly. Because of this I think it's safe to assume Cailan sent out a call to his nobles for troops and that there was a sizable portion of Ferelden's manpower at Ostogar...

Well, I'm sure you're right that Cailan did call up the armies. Seeing as Howe was busy murdering Cousland, I don't think his troops were there. Since Fergus Cousland's had already arrived, I guess some of his forces were there (not all of them, though, since Bryce Cousland was supposed to accompany them). Side note: how did Fergus manage to arrive so much sooner than you when he only left the day before? We know Eamon's forces hadn't arrived, since Cailan and Loghain debated waiting for them. Finally, we never see or hear of any other Teryns at the battle, nor do we hear about their deaths later.

It would make sense to execute that plan without any of the other Teryns present, if you think about it. Nobody would believe a random soldier who claimed that Loghain abandoned the king, but if one of the nobility survived as a witness, he would have trouble.

I don't disagree that Loghain did some reprehensible things, and I usually kill him for it.  I just don't think he qualifies as "stupid evil," and as Addai commented, some of his later actions were probably results of getting into that rut.  Once he did one thing, he had to do the next to cover the first up, and then the nobles didn't unite so he had to take further action, etc.

Modifié par soteria, 05 janvier 2011 - 02:41 .

[drahelvete]

dzizass wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Most of the banns, arls, and teryns still had their armies after Ostagar. I believe only Cailan's own private army was lost. There wouldn't have been much of a civil war going on if the "bulk" of Ferelden's armies had been sacrificed.

So either he'd lose the bulk of the forces or risk a civil war (which we know from the game did break out). Either way - VERY stupid.

That is why he had Arl Eamon poisoned. To make sure that no one would instigate a civil war.
None of the other nobles were influential enough.

And he would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those meddling Wardens!

[Follow Me on Twitter]

Loghain= Chaotic Good



Atleast in my eyes he was, he tried to protect his nation the only way he saw possible.

[Ziggeh]

drahelvete wrote...

And he would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those meddling Wardens!

The dog that can almost talk, the disheveled permanantly intoxicated one, the upstanding blonde guy, the attractive redhead and the intelligent unconventional girl travel round the country disposing of monsters.

[drahelvete]

Edit:

Modifié par drahelvete, 05 janvier 2011 - 01:47 .

[David Gaider]

Ziggeh wrote...
The dog that can almost talk, the disheveled permanantly intoxicated one, the upstanding blonde guy, the attractive redhead and the intelligent unconventional girl travel round the country disposing of monsters.

Oooo I like this analogy!

But what are the Scooby Snacks? Health poultices?

I'm trying to picture Thelma convincing Daphne that sleeping with Fred in some forbidden ritual is the only way to destroy the Ghost of the Lighthouse Keeper forever... and it's delicious.

[Atakuma]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm trying to picture Thelma convincing Daphne that sleeping with Fred in some forbidden ritual is the only way to destroy the Ghost of the Lighthouse Keeper forever... and it's delicious.

That would be tricky considering Fred is a flaming asexual.

[Addai]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm trying to picture Thelma convincing Daphne that sleeping with Fred in some forbidden ritual is the only way to destroy the Ghost of the Lighthouse Keeper forever... and it's delicious.

OMG my childhood memories are polluted forever.

[upsettingshorts]

David Gaider wrote...

But what are the Scooby Snacks? Health poultices?

Mabari crunches.  Duh.

[HolyJellyfish]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm trying to picture Thelma convincing Daphne that sleeping with Fred in some forbidden ritual is the only way to destroy the Ghost of the Lighthouse Keeper forever... and it's delicious.

And the truth behind Dragon Age's inspiration comes to light.

[Harid]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

Loghain= Chaotic Good

Atleast in my eyes he was, he tried to protect his nation the only way he saw possible.

I would argue Loghain was Lawful neutral, but some people get up in arms about alignment talk for some reason.

I am tired of saving the world, but I think I made enough of an argument about this in the Evil Companions thread and i don't feel to repeat myself.

[David Gaider]

Atakuma wrote...
That would be tricky considering Fred is a flaming asexual.

It'd take some powerful blood magic to unravel Fred's ascot, it's true, but that Thelma's a clever one.

"Rud ragic?!"

That's right, Scooby! Blood magic!

[drahelvete]

This is what the Archdemon really looked like, underneath all that black cloth:

and inside, pedalling like a maniac, was the Mad Hermit from the Brecilian Forest.

Modifié par drahelvete, 05 janvier 2011 - 04:34 .