405 réponses à ce sujet

[Pwnsaur]

Suprez30 wrote...
i think we're not talking about the same Evilness.

To use the most clique'd and extreme example available... Hitler was, in his own eyes, doing good. Everything he did was sold to the German people as necessary to preserve the master race and perpetuate the success the human race as a whole. He was only eliminating the harmful members of society for the 'greater good.' Hitler was a 'hero' and a 'champion' of his cause and only people beyond the reaches of his propaganda would deny this. It's only when you pan out and realize the big picture that he appears as the truly maniacal monster he really was. Compelling evil can be done, and it can be done well.

[Dave of Canada]

OH NO GODWIN'S LAW

[iEthanol]

Pwnsaur wrote...

Suprez30 wrote...
i think we're not talking about the same Evilness.

To use the most clique'd and extreme example available... Hitler was, in his own eyes, doing good. Everything he did was sold to the German people as necessary to preserve the master race and perpetuate the success the human race as a whole. He was only eliminating the harmful members of society for the 'greater good.' Hitler was a 'hero' and a 'champion' of his cause and only people beyond the reaches of his propaganda would deny this. It's only when you pan out and realize the big picture that he appears as the truly maniacal monster he really was. Compelling evil can be done, and it can be done well.

^that. Hell, Hitler was even Time's Man of the Year.

[upsettingshorts]

Godwin is only truly invoked if the example of National Socialism or Adolf Hitler is inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic. Since we're talking about villains and the concept of perspective, it's not a Godwin to bring up Hitler.

The judges (well, me) will allow it.

iEthanol wrote...

^that. Hell, Hitler was even Time's Man of the Year.

That award isn't an endorsement, but a recognition of influence.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 janvier 2011 - 09:47 .

[iEthanol]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Godwin is only truly invoked if the example of National Socialism or Adolf Hitler is inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic. Since we're talking about villains and the concept of perspective, it's not a Godwin to bring up Hitler.

The judges (well, me) will allow it.

iEthanol wrote...

^that. Hell, Hitler was even Time's Man of the Year.

That award isn't an endorsement, but a recognition of influence.

Hope you're kidding. We're talking about media here. Time Warner for Pete's sake. Every and any thing is for endorsement. Anyway, we're getting of topic.

Maybe not Hitler, but for example a bad guy like Ben from Lost. Nothing quite beats a good manipulator--- and DA's rich dialogue system allows for that.

Modifié par iEthanol, 02 janvier 2011 - 09:51 .

[Dave of Canada]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Godwin is only truly invoked if the example of National Socialism or Adolf Hitler is inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic. Since we're talking about villains and the concept of perspective, it's not a Godwin to bring up Hitler.

I yell Godwin whenever Hitler is brought up because it'll develop to people arguing about him and eventually getting the thread locked.

[Pwnsaur]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
The judges (well, me) will allow it.

You are a gentlemen and a scholar, and I thank you.

Modifié par Pwnsaur, 02 janvier 2011 - 09:53 .

[Fishy]

So i talk about a video game character that run in the countryside and take side quest like
-Save the kitten in the tree for 30 gold

and you bring up anti-semitism

/Run outa here

Modifié par Suprez30, 02 janvier 2011 - 09:54 .

[Pwnsaur]

Suprez30 wrote...

So i talk about a video game character that run in the countryside and take side quest like
-Save the kitten in the tree for 30 gold

and you bring up anti-semitism

/Run outa here

Actually I was more referring to the use of eugenics to distort and control. I never mentioned anything about 'gods' chosen people.'

Nice try though.

Modifié par Pwnsaur, 02 janvier 2011 - 09:57 .

[Morroian]

iEthanol wrote...

The Origin story of a tragic villain who started out as the typical RPG goody two shoes and outside forces led him to turn into what he once stood against?

Well he's not exactly a goody two shoes at the start but the fall of Dr Horrible is everything that the fall of Anakin Skywalker is not, and in 30 minutes instead of 6 hours as well. 

[Fishy]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Godwin is only truly invoked if the example of National Socialism or Adolf Hitler is inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic. Since we're talking about villains and the concept of perspective, it's not a Godwin to bring up Hitler.

I yell Godwin whenever Hitler is brought up because it'll develop to people arguing about him and eventually getting the thread locked.

Indeed .. People get touchy when Hitler's brought up .I'm especialy  more in defensive mode when it's brought up by 27 december and January 2

[Pwnsaur]

You do realize you're entirely ignoring my point to sensationalize and derail the discussion into something ugly, right? It's people like you that are roadblocks on the highway of progressive discourse. Grow up and expand your perception beyond everything = everything = everything. <_<

Modifié par Pwnsaur, 02 janvier 2011 - 10:17 .

[soteria]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Godwin is only truly invoked if the example of National Socialism or Adolf Hitler is inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic. Since we're talking about villains and the concept of perspective, it's not a Godwin to bring up Hitler.

The judges (well, me) will allow it.

http://xkcd.com/261/

[Maria Caliban]

Pwnsaur wrote...

You do realize you're entirely ignoring my point...?

Yes.

[thedistortedchild]

Morroian wrote...

iEthanol wrote...

The Origin story of a tragic villain who started out as the typical RPG goody two shoes and outside forces led him to turn into what he once stood against?

Well he's not exactly a goody two shoes at the start but the fall of Dr Horrible is everything that the fall of Anakin Skywalker is not, and in 30 minutes instead of 6 hours as well. 

SPOILER

So a villain like Loghain?

[ankuu]

I've always wanted to be a companion in a game. A mere mortal, a follower to a great Hero. Would you agree with him? Would you help him become THE hero while you remain something not worth mentioning? And to see how the companions that were left at camp felt like...

I think Bioware could do this. And it's not the actions you can actually control but your relationship with the Hero, and you end up in a prison if you try to kill him or end up his counselor if you help him. Something like that.

Modifié par ankuu, 02 janvier 2011 - 11:50 .

[SgtElias]

iEthanol wrote...

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. He started out with the agenda "to make the world a better place", but as time went on he started killing innocents just so that he is not caught. He become the exact thing he originally stood against.

Oh, I agree. I was just responding to your post about wanting to "rule with an iron fist," and all that. You can't rule with an iron fist without eliminating your enemies (and enemies WILL crop up). Also, as I said, perhaps I misunderstand what sort of character it is you're looking to play. If you want to play a character that does very bad things for the greater good, I'd argue that your character isn't really "bad" or "evil," which is what I thought the aim was supposed to be.

Anyway, that's enough outta me for one night. Not because your topic isn't interesting, but because I should probably go to bed before my kids wake up in four hours. 

[CLime]

How does Jade Empire fit into the hero defintion? You could be a pretty mean bastard playing Closed Fist, including but not limited to:

-Dooming an entire town to poverty for some cash

-Tricking a guy into letting his sick daughter get possessed by the ghost of some evil old miser

-Killing a whole mess of people for trying to stand up to you



And yet, the "evil" ending is arguably the best in the game as far as the empire is concerned. You still beat the same bosses as the good guy, but do so with different goals in mind.

[Eudaemonium]

thedistortedchild wrote...

Morroian wrote...

iEthanol wrote...

The Origin story of a tragic villain who started out as the typical RPG goody two shoes and outside forces led him to turn into what he once stood against?

Well he's not exactly a goody two shoes at the start but the fall of Dr Horrible is everything that the fall of Anakin Skywalker is not, and in 30 minutes instead of 6 hours as well. 

SPOILER

So a villain like Loghain?

Loghain only really works that way if you've read the novels - if you just play the game, liek I did, he's horribly underdeveloped unless SPOILER you recruit him /SPOILER. And even that doesn't flesh his character out amazingly well.

I actually played my Warden a bit like a tragic hero. She was a total wreck by the end of the narrative, very callous and twisted.

[request denied]

Oh Ankuu like an angry companion that is always left at camp would go down the rivalry path .

Modifié par request denied, 02 janvier 2011 - 11:57 .

[ankuu]

request denied wrote...

Oh Ankuu like an angry companion that is always left at camp would go down the rivalry path .

Yeah I've put this idea of mine in a fanfic (which i never finished) but i made it hilarious, not dark fantasy. But in dark-fantasy i think it would be better.

In the fanfic I included a dumb-as-a-rock noble man riding a white horse, always grooming his hair and talking superior to everyone. The compaion was modest and rode a skinny brown horse. I see the hero with DeathSpank's voice and Gaston's (Beauty and the Beast) appearance. And with a name like Papillion (i named the companion Hugo).

[request denied]

ankuu wrote...

request denied wrote...

Oh Ankuu like an angry companion that is always left at camp would go down the rivalry path .

Yeah I've put this idea of mine in a fanfic (which i never finished) but i made it hilarious, not dark fantasy. But in dark-fantasy i think it would be better.

In the fanfic I included a dumb-as-a-rock noble man riding a white horse, always grooming his hair and talking superior to everyone. The compaion was modest and rode a skinny brown horse. I see the hero with DeathSpank's voice and Gaston's (Beauty and the Beast) appearance. And with a name like Papillion (i named the companion Hugo).

Sounds good you should finsh it .

[Rzepik2]

Stanley Woo wrote...
You can't be "the bad guy." "The bad guy" is the guy you're usually trying to beat at the end of the game. At worst, you can be a really disagreeable hero or a good guy with questionable tastes or that jerk who saved the world. But playing "the bad guy" is not what you're going to find in a BioWare game. Sorry.

I always felt like a real bad guy after I summoned few demons in the middle of Waukeen's Promenade. Small army of paladins chasing me afterwards probably shares this opinion.

Modifié par Rzepik2, 02 janvier 2011 - 12:23 .