141 réponses à ce sujet

[masterkajo]

I don't know how people play this game but for me I just played through the first (making my own personal decisions including upgrades, dialoge etc) and then import that save into ME2 and do the same --> on my first and only playthrough none of my teammates died but half my crew did. I have to live with these consqeuences and that's the beauty of ME.



I just like that you can create your own story depending on your choices and if you get your entire team through the SM be happy you did so otherwise deal with the loses and still kick Reaper ass in ME3.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

samuraix87 wrote...

it would be better if you got people killed you dont get any replacements really with the squad you have left you should have to play me3 with them it would make it more interesting

If you didn't recruit any others that would make sense too, but if you need that position filled, could always get another dossier and go on another recruitment/loyalty mission.

Ever read the back of the box? "PROVE THEM WRONG". Prove them wrong meant, "It's *NOT* a suicide mission" and that entails getting your crew out of the mission alive.

"THEY CALL IT A SUICIDE MISSION"

"They" being people in the game, not the game itself or the game makers themselves.  And you can "PROVE THEM WRONG" while still suffering losses.

Uh, that doesn't make sense. Technical definition suicide means "The intentional taking of one's own life." If it was a suicide mission, every single person dying on the mission would have been mandatory. The "Prove them wrong" still stands, and that will also mean "Squadmates can survive with no casualties." 

The two don't equate.  A Suicide Mission means that it's a 1-way trip; no one comes home.  Squadmates die on missions all the time without them being a suicide mission.  It's only a suicide mission if you're ALL expected to die and if you ALL die.

You prove it wrong by surviving, whether you all do or not.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 06 janvier 2011 - 11:00 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

As it currently stands, the SM is fine compromise between those who want death and those that don't: if you want someone to die to give it meaning then you can do so, but if you want to get them all out you can do that too.  I don't see any problem here.

The SM isn't that at all, because the only way there are any casualties on the squad is if Shepard makes tactical or strategic blunders, and/or the player metagames to create casualties for dramatic effect.

Though I think the suicide mission is flawed in that is possible (and easy) to get through without losing anyone, I think it is fine for the middle chapter of the story.

But ME3 should end differently. This going to be the final climactic battle agains the Reapers, a battle that the story has set up as the most imprtant battle fought in all of human, and potentially all of galactic history. It is going to be an epic battle against a race of superadvanced machines that have so far destroyed every civilization that stood against them for millenia upon millenia. It is a battle literally for the survival of the human species. Given the stakes and what Shepard is up against, I agree fully with Sir Ulhrich that Shepard getting his entire team through unscathed would be the "biggest pile of cheese on the biggest cheesiest sandwich that has ever been thought of.

The end doesn't necessarily have to be dark & gloomy, but it should feel like a triumph that came after an extremely tough and close fight. If I can compare the final battle to a football game, it should end 24-23 in overtime, in dramatic fashion, instead of a 47-0 route.

How is choosing Miranda to do the biotic bubble a tactical blunder?  Shepard doesn't know that they'll need that big blast at the end, and whoever he chooses to make the bubble will be unable to do anything else, and so choosing the best biotic means losing out on their biotic combat capability, in that case it is reasonable to assume that it's better to go with an average biotic and utilise the most capable biotics elsewhere.

Shepard doesn't know that the crewmates will be able to make it back with Mordin, it is reasonable to presume that they'll need a heavy hitter to help them make it back such as Grunt.  Then take the other heavy hitters with you to face the baby-reaper since the main goal is to destroy the collector base not hold the line and you are liable to lose people then.

Paragon Shepard doesn't know that he will have the oppurtunity to talk Garrus out of shooting Sidonis.  When asked to go hunt him down he really would most likely say no, since it goes against his goals, and can't look at their character sheet like we can to see if they are loyal, hell you'd think Garrus would already be loyal.  This then leads to a unloyal Garrus which can then lead on to deaths.

Just a few ways in which you can make tactical decisions that make sense that can lead to death.  As to getting through the reaper invasion without squad deaths would be cheesy, I disagree that is the nature of a cinematic experience.  We know millions have died so it's not like there won't be sadness and loss already, and too much can be just a downer.  Plus, its a cinematic experience, cheese should be expected and welcome.  ME is incredibly cheesy if you look at it.

[Deathwurm]

I lost Tali on my Suicide Mission (I haven't played a second time yet) and, while her actual Death may not have been spectacular I did find that 1 closed Casket in the Bay a bit touching...especially as she was my LI.

I can't really figure out why people have a problem with the "Suicide Mission" idea...to everyone involved it really did appear as if there was no possible way to achieve your Objective and return safely and then you do...not bad from a Story standpoint IMO.

As far as tossing the word "Retard" around in some of these Posts...well you pretty much have to be one to use that word nowadays.

Go ahead...Flame On...I'm ready.

[FlintlockJazz]

Deathwurm wrote...

I lost Tali on my Suicide Mission (I haven't played a second time yet) and, while her actual Death may not have been spectacular I did find that 1 closed Casket in the Bay a bit touching...especially as she was my LI.
I can't really figure out why people have a problem with the "Suicide Mission" idea...to everyone involved it really did appear as if there was no possible way to achieve your Objective and return safely and then you do...not bad from a Story standpoint IMO.
As far as tossing the word "Retard" around in some of these Posts...well you pretty much have to be one to use that word nowadays.
Go ahead...Flame On...I'm ready.

I see nothing flame-worthy in your post.  You fail at inciting flame.

I agree with your post.

[Deathwurm]

It was more the "Retard" thing I'm expecting to get flamed on by...well...Retards. (Gods I just hate that word)

[D4rkFire]

I killed everyone expect Kasumi and Morinth and I can't wait to see what Shepard is going to do in ME3 she is totally screwed since she destroyed the collector base as well.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/1165725

Modifié par D4rkFire, 06 janvier 2011 - 11:32 .

[goatman42]

I'm sticking with whoever died in my first playthough because that one feels the most real since I didn't know how the suicide mission worked then. Only Thane died (still sad about that).



Really though, people can play the game however they want. There is no "right" way to play Mass Effect.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

ME3 should end differently. This going to be the final climactic battle agains the Reapers, a battle that the story has set up as the most imprtant battle fought in all of human, and potentially all of galactic history. It is going to be an epic battle against a race of superadvanced machines that have so far destroyed every civilization that stood against them for millenia upon millenia. It is a battle literally for the survival of the human species. Given the stakes and what Shepard is up against, I agree fully with Sir Ulrich that Shepard getting his entire team through unscathed would be the "biggest pile of cheese on the biggest cheesiest sandwich that has ever been thought of.

As to getting through the reaper invasion without squad deaths would be cheesy, I disagree that is the nature of a cinematic experience.  We know millions have died so it's not like there won't be sadness and loss already, and too much can be just a downer.  Plus, its a cinematic experience, cheese should be expected and welcome.  ME is incredibly cheesy if you look at it.

Plenty of cinematic experiences have deaths. As I said in my last post, Matrix being prime example. Independence Day being another, I could go through a whole slew of movies where some people on the 'good guys/gals' team died. Independence Day is one of the most cheesiest films there is and yet it still had character deaths in it.

Aliens, A New Hope, Return of the Jedi, Lord of the Rings, I could go on and on as I said before and so as I also said before, having no squad/crew/ally deaths at all in ME3 will be the most utter and outrageous cheesiest thing ever in the history of entertainment. We're going up against the Reapers, you know, big bad ass never been defeated in hundreds of thousands of years. Millions dead already is nothing in comparison to what they've done in the past (galaxy reaped). IMHO Squad/Crew/Ally deaths should be expected. It isn't as if we haven't seen it before in ME, because we have in the first game. Thus to some extent the shock value is going to be lessened but not to a great deal until after people play it for the first time. Hell I remember even when ME2 came out and people first started playing it and found out how deaths could occur in the Suicide Mission. All the posts about a specific character now well known for being easiest to die.

Shepard maybe a gorram brilliant Commander, but they shouldn't be a miracle worker. Somethings should occur out of Shepard's control (although technically to some extent not entirely out of our control which is actually a different matter).

[Bamboozalist]

^

Name one named important non villain character in Star Wars Episodes IV - VI that dies...and no Red Leader does not count, neither does Darth Vader. Same goes for Lord of the Rings, no main character dies.



@Anyone who wants there to not be a "perfect" ending to ME3



The point of having an RPG trilogy based around your actions shaping the universe is you can decide how you want everything to play out. Not putting in an everyone survives ending is not only against that but a straight insult to the very thought of choice based RPGs. If it's cheesy, don't do it, you control the story, make choices that shape it how you want. Would it be cheesy? Hell yes it would, but Mass Effect as a whole is already a cheesy cliche ball that runs with it and becomes something that's fun and enjoyable.

[FlintlockJazz]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Plenty of cinematic experiences have deaths. As I said in my last post, Matrix being prime example. Independence Day being another, I could go through a whole slew of movies where some people on the 'good guys/gals' team died. Independence Day is one of the most cheesiest films there is and yet it still had character deaths in it.

Aliens, A New Hope, Return of the Jedi, Lord of the Rings, I could go on and on as I said before and so as I also said before, having no squad/crew/ally deaths at all in ME3 will be the most utter and outrageous cheesiest thing ever in the history of entertainment. We're going up against the Reapers, you know, big bad ass never been defeated in hundreds of thousands of years. Millions dead already is nothing in comparison to what they've done in the past (galaxy reaped). IMHO Squad/Crew/Ally deaths should be expected. It isn't as if we haven't seen it before in ME, because we have in the first game. Thus to some extent the shock value is going to be lessened but not to a great deal until after people play it for the first time. Hell I remember even when ME2 came out and people first started playing it and found out how deaths could occur in the Suicide Mission. All the posts about a specific character now well known for being easiest to die.

Shepard maybe a gorram brilliant Commander, but they shouldn't be a miracle worker. Somethings should occur out of Shepard's control (although technically to some extent not entirely out of our control which is actually a different matter).

Return of the Jedi had no major good guy hero deaths (unless you count Darth Vader), they defeated the Empire and all lived.  If anyone dies in a cinematic story they are usually Dramatically Appropriate Moments, for instance Shepard dying while killing Harbringer in a heroic death embrace that halts the Reapers for good would be Dramatically Appropriate, and so would the LI knocking out Shepard to shove him in an escape pod so that they could die in their place, whereas Liara dying from falling rubble without so much as a farewall speech would not. 

When you have the cinematic story taking place via game where the player has some degree of control then you have difficulty in making those moments.  The player expects and should get some ability to influence the outcome, and they need to feel that their choices are meaningful.  I dislike the Virmire choice not because it causes a character death but because it so awfully contrived: the whole setup reeks of "OOo look choice!" and really, unless you romancing one of them there is no real reason to choose one over another, as they both end with one character dying and the bomb still going off.  If you go to the AA tower the bomb still manages to go off and if you go to the bomb site other than your crewmate the number of Salarians that survive doesn't change.  I consider Virmire to be a failure in Dramatically Appropriate Death since the main character doesn't have a choice like choosing to save the one he loves over completing the mission or sacrificing them in order to save others. 

If they kill any characters off in ME3 I do not want death for the sake of death, we know the reapers are evil and going to kill everyone we don't need random death of squadmate to emphasise that.  I don't want character death in order to try and provide pointless 'drama', I want character death that is appropriate to the individual character and while furthering the story.  For instance, Joker dying while at the controls of the Normandy, sacrificing his life to buy time for others to get to the escape pods would be Dramatically Appropriate, dying in order to make up a list of random dead people would not.

In short, squadmates should not suffer redshirt deaths, we already have redshirts for that (aka Normandy rank and file crew).

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 06 janvier 2011 - 02:08 .

[Cyberfrog81]

Once upon a time there was a BioWare Social Network user called Mec.

One day Mec visited a theme park with his family. Mec is not easily impressed, mind you. He is a hardcore, true theme park fan. But he thought he'd try this park too and end the day taking the supposedly epic rollercoaster ride.

Mec actually rather enjoyed the ride. It really got his pulse up. Mec was surprised - this was actually exciting!

When it was all over, however, he started thinking about the experience. Sure, it had been pretty fun, but it should have been so much more! Mec went over to the guy at the rollercoaster controls.

"Dude, what the hell!", Mec began. "There was hardly any screaming! This ride sucks!"

"Sir, I..."

"Everyone got through it alive, and it was obvious all the way that we would. No real tension. A terrible ride!"

"Safety is..."

"Yeah, the safety mechanism should randomly fail so that family members are sent flying and drop to their deaths. Now that is how you create drama! Haha, what a lousy ride this is!"

Police and men in white coats were called in. By the time they arrived, Mec had already gone home, logged on to the Internet and started giving the theme park one-star ratings all over the place. A year later, he still finds the time to rant about his underwhelming experience at the park.


                            
Yes, you should be glad I don't write your games. Just like I'm glad some of you aren't designing them.

[Lunatic LK47]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

Once upon a time there was a BioWare Social Network user called Mec.

One day Mec visited a theme park with his family. Mec is not easily impressed, mind you. He is a hardcore, true theme park fan. But he thought he'd try this park too and end the day taking the supposedly epic rollercoaster ride.

Mec actually rather enjoyed the ride. It really got his pulse up. Mec was surprised - this was actually exciting!

When it was all over, however, he started thinking about the experience. Sure, it had been pretty fun, but it should have been so much more! Mec went over to the guy at the rollercoaster controls.

"Dude, what the hell!", Mec began. "There was hardly any screaming! This ride sucks!"

"Sir, I..."

"Everyone got through it alive, and it was obvious all the way that we would. No real tension. A terrible ride!"

"Safety is..."

"Yeah, the safety mechanism should randomly fail so that family members are sent flying and drop to their deaths. Now that is how you create drama! Haha, what a lousy ride this is!"

Police and men in white coats were called in. By the time they arrived, Mec had already gone home, logged on to the Internet and started giving the theme park one-star ratings all over the place. A year later, he still finds the time to rant about his underwhelming experience at the park.


                            
Yes, you should be glad I don't write your games. Just like I'm glad some of you aren't designing them.

Epic ****ing win.

[Lunatic LK47]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Plenty of cinematic experiences have deaths. As I said in my last post, Matrix being prime example. Independence Day being another, I could go through a whole slew of movies where some people on the 'good guys/gals' team died. Independence Day is one of the most cheesiest films there is and yet it still had character deaths in it.

Aliens, A New Hope, Return of the Jedi, Lord of the Rings, I could go on and on as I said before and so as I also said before, having no squad/crew/ally deaths at all in ME3 will be the most utter and outrageous cheesiest thing ever in the history of entertainment. We're going up against the Reapers, you know, big bad ass never been defeated in hundreds of thousands of years. Millions dead already is nothing in comparison to what they've done in the past (galaxy reaped). IMHO Squad/Crew/Ally deaths should be expected. It isn't as if we haven't seen it before in ME, because we have in the first game. Thus to some extent the shock value is going to be lessened but not to a great deal until after people play it for the first time. Hell I remember even when ME2 came out and people first started playing it and found out how deaths could occur in the Suicide Mission. All the posts about a specific character now well known for being easiest to die.

Shepard maybe a gorram brilliant Commander, but they shouldn't be a miracle worker. Somethings should occur out of Shepard's control (although technically to some extent not entirely out of our control which is actually a different matter).

Uh, Aliens had the wrong types of deaths. Reason why half the Marine squad died was because they had a very inexperienced and very incompetent leader ("Collect everyone's magazines! Flamethrowers only!"). While we may have cared that Hudson, Apone, Drake, and Vasquez died, their deaths could have been preventable.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

FlintlockJazz wrote...
If they kill any characters off in ME3 I do not want death for the sake of death, we know the reapers are evil and going to kill everyone we don't need random death of squadmate to emphasise that.  I don't want character death in order to try and provide pointless 'drama', I want character death that is appropriate to the individual character and while furthering the story.  For instance, Joker dying while at the controls of the Normandy, sacrificing his life to buy time for others to get to the escape pods would be Dramatically Appropriate, dying in order to make up a list of random dead people would not.

I refer back to my previous post before my last one...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
Don't get me wrong, I don't want deaths just for the sake that there should be deaths, the deaths should be meaningful and realistic but to say that Shepard can get everyone out alive in the battle against the reapers is downright lunacy imho.

See I never said there should be deaths for the sake of deaths, I am merely pointing out that it would be crazy stupid for Shep to come out of this battle with no casualties. Also if you'll note in ALL my posts I've stated Squad/Crew/Allys, which can account for losses either of crew or allies who are helping us, but I don't think Squad should get a 'get out of jail free' card too in this instance. Am not saying it should be a red-shirt moment, merely that there should be possibility of it happening due to some reason or other.

@Bamboozalist seeing as you foolishly counted Ep4 into that mix, I can name one. Obi-Wan Kenobi
RotJ besides Vader (who knows we might find an original antagonist becoming an ally in ME3 for all we know), Paploo I think dies (flaming well should have for stealing an Imperial Scout Troopers bike ) and Red Leader didn't die anyway because Red Leader in RotJ was Wedge Antilles who can be seen in the celebration on Endor (sorry am a Star Wars geek/501st Legion member). But there was that A-Wing Pilot who died doing a suicide run at the bridge of Darth Vader's Executor class ship (yeah ok he just a random red-shirt )

As for LotR, Boromir FotR, Haldir in TTT, Theoden in RotK to name but a few

@Lunatic erm... Hudson and Vasquez's deaths weren't totally Gorman's fault. Although you could argue the latter seeing as both Vasquez and Gorman died together Hudson died a true hero's death... (well unless he was taken to be impregnated)

One thing I will add to the not wanting deaths for the sake of deaths. I don't want no cheesy Matrix Revolutions style death either... don't mind it of being similar vein but not an outright copy ie. Shep plugged into the evil overlords to save the galaxy from computing pi

[Lunatic LK47]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

@Bamboozalist seeing as you foolishly counted Ep4 into that mix, I can name one. Obi-Wan Kenobi
RotJ besides Vader (who knows we might find an original antagonist becoming an ally in ME3 for all we know), Paploo I think dies (flaming well should have for stealing an Imperial Scout Troopers bike ) and Red Leader didn't die anyway because Red Leader in RotJ was Wedge Antilles who can be seen in the celebration on Endor (sorry am a Star Wars geek/501st Legion member). But there was that A-Wing Pilot who died doing a suicide run at the bridge of Darth Vader's Executor class ship (yeah ok he just a random red-shirt )

Correction: Wedge was Rogue 3 in ESB and just got the role of Red Leader for ROTJ.

@Lunatic erm... Hudson and Vasquez's deaths weren't totally Gorman's fault. Although you could argue the latter seeing as both Vasquez and Gorman died together Hudson died a true hero's death... (well unless he was taken to be impregnated)

Uh, I still stand by "the squad's deaths could have been PREVENTABLE had Gorman not ****ed up the Atmosphere Processor mission." The whole squad could have lived through this, and last time I checked, Gorman's martyrdom caused Newt's capture and Hicks being wounded when trying to save her before Ripley's one-woman assault

[Bamboozalist]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
Boromir

Boromir is the only one I would actually count and I can't believe I forgot he died. But you are correct. So Boromir was the person you sacrificed on Virmire, but beyond that none of the main characters died. Secondary characters don't count.

For Star Wars I would count Obi Wan if he didn't spend the next two movies talking to Luke as a ghost. A character's death doesn't count when they still manage to be a character after their Death. Also didn't Red Leader die in a new hope?